Welcome to the Second Life Forums Archive

These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE

White Cube of Death in the New World

Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-28-2005 19:29
From: someone
Eminent domain implies that someone has the right to take your land from you, and then compensate you for the land with market rates.

Is that happening now? I thought we were talking about "Teh Shadoe Gubment" and skyscrapers.



Yes, I do go through a lot of keyboards not only through SL but do to a huge amount of RL typing too. No one can read the vowels like "e" on my keyboards.

I don't care if a Better Business Bureau or whatever is already passed over and picked over by all the FICS and players before me, it is desperately needed and the one thing hindering it is clear-cut unambiguous signals from the Lindens that players who investigate other players by examining their behavior through notecards and witnesses to conversations are not going to be slammed with TOS violation accusastions, and will not be slammed if they then, after their investigation, post the name of the offending business and the individuals and alts associated with it, so that consumers have protection. I'm thinking the Lindens are not going to do that. I'm thinking players will do it without them, one way or another, and better it be guided and not turn into a mafia omerta thing.

2. Eminent domain does indeed imply that the government compensates you when it ploughs through your house to put in electric wires or a road. It's the only expression I can summon up usually to express that unquantifiable electronic boundless sense that some entities experience on the Internet where they think their egos can expand like never-ending gas particles out to the space around just because they are. I call it "fuck you hedonism" to try to capture that combination of heedlessness and arrogance that summons up the attitude of people who just walk into a new sim and plunk down a giant tower, King Kong, or a club box with dumb particles and textures all over it without a thought in their tiny minds about how they look, how the sim looks, how the rest of the neighborhood will adjust.

3. Yes, eminent domain doesn't seem to be the right word when these megatower plunkers plunk heedlessly, but guess what, there is this sense among the FIC that they *already* compensate us for their endless expansiveness by giving away freebies. And this is where I quit and go over to the 20,000 character Prokofy v. FIC thread if you like.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
03-28-2005 22:39
From: Prokofy Neva
. . . but guess what, there is this sense among the FIC that they *already* compensate us for their endless expansiveness by giving away freebies.


Prokofy... I really am astonished that you'd lump people into a group like that. Giving away freebies is to make up for world domination? Are you f*cking kidding?

Last time I checked, everyone that I knew making freebies was doing it becuase they thought it was a benefit for the community, especially if you're new to SL. It wasn't because they needed to repent for amasing some empire.

:confused:
_____________________
Siggy Romulus
DILLIGAF
Join date: 22 Sep 2003
Posts: 5,711
03-28-2005 22:58
From: Juro Kothari

Last time I checked, everyone that I knew making freebies was doing it becuase they thought it was a benefit for the community, especially if you're new to SL. It wasn't because they needed to repent for amasing some empire.

:confused:


In bizarro word everything am backwardz!
_____________________
The Second Life forums are living proof as to why it's illegal for people to have sex with farm animals.

From: Jesse Linden
I, for one, am highly un-helped by this thread
Seth Kanahoe
political fugue artist
Join date: 30 Jan 2005
Posts: 1,220
03-28-2005 23:36
In bi22arro world, am aRrtist of tH3 arguMent. Am paint1ng aRgumenTs likE Salvatore Dali paints pictur3s. Lots of aNts. Lots of chopPed l0giC.
Baba Yamamoto
baba@slinked.net
Join date: 26 May 2003
Posts: 1,024
03-29-2005 00:04
While I enjoy a discussion disrupting image as much as the next guy, please do try to keep them within the bounds of the forum...
_____________________
Open Metaverse Foundation - http://www.openmetaverse.org

Meerkat viewer - http://meerkatviewer.org
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
03-29-2005 01:21
Well I have no interest in wasting an hour or more of my life reading another Prokofy whine, but as for the build, I like it. Will be interested to see it textured, assuming that it's gonna be. But it also looks rather striking in white.

There are two other towers very close to it that are far more, um, 'interesting' that I'm sure he could have got on his high horse about.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-29-2005 07:12
I get on my high horse about all towers the appear in a residential neighbourhood and menace the smaller neighbours, especially in a prime beachfront area which is really meant for residential and really shouldn't be turned over to a megatower without some kind of fight, but so often there is no one to care.

There is no intent to texture this glaring tower because it is the clone of an existing tower.

I don't take on every single tower in SL, and I've seen some real hideous ones, but this one I chose to because the builder harassed me and my customers with false and vicious claims. The falseness of the claims is easily proved and anyone is welcome to contact me regarding them. The viciousness of the attacks is unlikely to stop, given the motives but I've been assured by this particular business that their construction sites will no longer be used as a platform to harass me or my customers or to make false claims. I can only hope they will abide by that pledge. Obviously, they have bigger problems now than me with the terror-menace chasing them around SL. While many will harass me further now thinking I opened up the way for this menace, I will remind me that I was menaced with destructive claims about my business first. And this kind of terror-building occurs because of the lack of channels for dispute resolution and sim management in SL, a problem that I fight, and do not contribute to but seek to alleviate.

From: someone

Prokofy... I really am astonished that you'd lump people into a group like that. Giving away freebies is to make up for world domination? Are you f*cking kidding?

Last time I checked, everyone that I knew making freebies was doing it becuase they thought it was a benefit for the community, especially if you're new to SL. It wasn't because they needed to repent for amasing some empire.


Yes, I realize that is a really astonishing concept and really annoying and I'm very glad I've gotten you to think about this because I can think of little other way to get people to think about these things, given their default of smug superiority, than challenging all their sacred cows in the sharpest way possible.

Everyone thinks that someone who gives away freebies (especially those who infest newbie areas and hand out things like women's lingerie packages) is a noble, selfless creature. But most of the time, they just want to spread their name around, get landmarks out there, and get people to their store. I know what that's like because I do that myself. Everybody provides loss leaders, it's normal in business.

But here's where it gets sticky. When you begin to argue with these people who have put giant builds, wacky builds, intrusive builds, annoying builds in the way of the entire horizon and view corridor and SL experience, who have infested all of SL territory with their free prefabs that they think are wonderful, sooner of later here is what they say:

"But I help newbies and I work for the good of the community and I'm not here to make a buck and I even give away my prefabs/furniture/cothing/vehicles."

It's a very manipulative and insidious argument. Each and every one who is engaging in this kind of mega-appearance in SL is absolutely convinced that they, and only they, are the selfless, self-sacrificying, public-interest-minded entity of the universe. They flatter themselves that everyone is thrilled that they provide freebies. It's one of the keystones to their very flattering and inflated self-image. They believe they *already* compensate the SL community and *already* work for the good of the SL community by putting out their prefabs or other free stuff and therefore it is *ok* to dominate the landscape then. They also flatter themselvse often that their "community service" time put in answering newbie questions qualifies them for hero status and gives them a pass on disrupting the skyline with megatowers. It's like the way Chevron and Shell Oil goes into places like Kazakhstan and drills up all the wilderness and then says they've opened up a center for indigenous women's health and therefore we should all be grateful at their public-mindedness and charitable good works. Meanwhile, they've drilled up and scarred the wilderness.

There's no end to this very deep-seated and widespread opinion "I work for the community, I'm not here to make a buck, I don't care about the money, you're shit, you're a bottom-feeder, you scam newbies."

It's awfully pernicious, and it is death for SL. It is the tekkie wiki mentality writ large -- I'm special, I give it for free, I don't need to make money, you are a fuck who tries to make a buck, you don't have a life, blah blah blah. It's death. Please try to examine it closely.

BTW, not to single you out at all, because I love you and your stuff, but let me gently point out that your own freebies are what enable you to get a presence in the world. And they are wonderful freebies and I have benefited from them as they enhance the landscape most of the time. But you know you think that no one can ever consider you of "costing too much" or "not working for the community" precisely because you have two very popular prefabs that every single newbie territory in 512-hell has, and thank God for it. But you know that the foundation for your own belief that you work for the community is precisely in your ability to argue "but I give away prefabs and lose money".

What I am challenging is this attitude. It is not to be mean to you personally. It is not to be appreciative of the freebie as a loss leader. It is to challenge a mentality that cripples economic growth in a game aspiring to grow and be the WWW of games.

You are making it too exaggerated (even for my hyperbole) when you say that people motivated to give freebies are "bent on world domination". I didn't say they are "bent on world domination". I said *they have a sense of eminent domain* and a sense of their *own right to determine what the public interest is* and this needs to be challenged. What they have is a sense that they dominate the community at the top of a hierarchy that puts a premium on architecture and buildings precisely because they are visible in the world and very hard to make compared to the average thing in life or SL. And those who are in this hierarchy feel they are being magnanimous by offering freebies -- they think that makes up for either the cost of the public having to endure looking at their giant builds, or the cost to the public for having to pay for their more expensive items, or the cost to the public of them believing that they are arbiters of taste and aesthetics. And there is a cost!
And that cost is indeed ceding them world domination!

You have created amazing public spaces such as your mall and showcase houses, and I have told you so in the game. I am not questioning your visible contribution or you personally. I'm questioning a system that creates a special corporatist nearly fascistic space in its society for builders, who believe that then their towers, their builds, their notions of what is right, can dominate the public space with no one having any recourse.
That's not just, and it is a recipe to turn SL into an empire that creates world landmarks, like the Roman Empire or the Soviet Empire or the Ottoman Empire, that has some interesting big gigantist architecture, but which died and got overthrown because it imposed taste on the public.

Every single "best architect" in SL is rooting for the white tower here against the forces of black evil -- the bottom-feeding real-estate agent who "steals from newbies" and the top-feeding ebil tower of death that just follows it around like a stalker using building for griefing rather than beauty. Every single one thinks good architecture reigns supreme merely because it is good architecture. Every single one thinks no one ever has to ask what the neighbours think or accommmodate to the specifics of the site of the sim because everyone thinks that anyone can build what they want on their property, and any one who then builds very well on their property reigns supreme. Every single one thinks it is ok to hate land barons and their scrappier cousins realtors of smaller parcels even though ever single one of them has to build on land that cost somebody something. t is these notions of eminent domain for fabulous architecture -- because it's big, because it's fabulous, because no one can question its largeness or art -- that I am raising these issues.

And it is not about "repenting" but it is about "compenation" and a cornerstone of the belief that "I do something for the good of the community".

We need to have less people deciding that what they do is for the good of the community, and less uber-architects deciding that their communities, their structures, their ideas, are ok and can reign supreme just because they're who they are at the top of the heap. The community is not empowered here to give voice. The community can never comment if they really like these prefabs or find them useful, especially if "lock" and "non mod" is clicked off on the objects. The community has no structures for making its voice heard. The community can't articulate what is good for it. The community then responds with a variety of tactics, ranging from giant griefo towers like the black tower of death next to the white one, and in rages on the forums like this one. That these rages on the forums and these terrors in the game occur for a reason -- because a fascist world is created that has not evolved the proper structures to make people feel comfortable and involved about the way public structures and large structures appear in their world.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
03-29-2005 07:20
ok. but I still like the tower *shrug*
Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
03-29-2005 07:24
From: Prokofy Neva
"But I help newbies and I work for the good of the community and I'm not here to make a buck and I even give away my prefabs/furniture/cothing/vehicles."
It's a very manipulative and insidious argument. It's awfully pernicious, and it is death for SL.


It's generosity, it's thinking about others and giving in a way that maybe you can't in real life, maybe even for financial reasons. It's the same mentality that makes giving presents at Christmas more fun than receiving. This is Second Life... I'm not going to get worried about my free furniture sets wrecking a virtual economy. Free stuff and generosity have been around since SL began.
_____________________
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-29-2005 07:27
From: someone
ok. but I still like the tower *shrug*


I've always liked the towers of that particular builder and company too.

But.

I question when the architect uses it as a personal trampoline to launch attacks on me that are vicious and unfounded merely because my name appears on nearby lots that were sold by newbies.

I question why the company gets to come in on a brand-new very hotly contested sim and plunk up a tower on prime beachfront right at the gateway of the new world.

I question why megatowers have the the right of way in a game.

It's an important discussion to have. Public discussion is the only recourse you do have. When someone destroys your reputation, it is hard to get it fixed again but I am happy to see that some people are continuing to sell new land to me and then donate tier to my rentals group and get equivalent or better land to live oon cash-free. It's helpful and it's the way to go.

Meanwhile, these towers are chasing each other around the sims, grandstanding and having some kind of megafight, and with the clash of the titans, newbies are oldbies just buying a little on the New Continent are scattering in their wake.

I'm glad I spoke up loud and clear, due to an unfortunate set of circumstances, about the way megabuilders dominate sims and the way people have no recourse to manage them. These are very important issues. I feel they are not likely to change any time soon, but if I have induced a little but of social awareness in any of these megabuilders, I feel the mission is accomplished.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Prokofy Neva
Virtualtor
Join date: 28 Sep 2004
Posts: 3,698
03-29-2005 07:30
From: someone
It's generosity, it's thinking about others and giving in a way that maybe you can't in real life, maybe even for financial reasons. It's the same mentality that makes giving presents at Christmas more fun than receiving. This is Second Life... I'm not going to get worried about my free furniture sets wrecking a virtual economy. Free stuff and generosity has been around since SL began


Yeah. It's nice. I got some free stuff in an Easter egg hunt yesterday from Barnes. It's sweet. But...it's not an economy and it makes it a game, a game not unlike Animal Crossing or The Sims Online, and it means it can't shed its Pinocchio status and become a real boy.

Your attitude "This is Second Life...I'm not going to get worried about my free furniture" is pandemic. You imply that a) you can determine what "Second Life" is and set me straight because I'm woefully ignorant about "what it is" and you as a builder and designer get to decide "what it is" and I don't and b) you're not worried about your freebies hurting the economy because you already pulled money from the economy for your fine work and don't have to think about the larger issues. But some people do think about how freebies destroy economies and urge people to reconsider what they are doing.
_____________________
Rent stalls and walls for $25-$50/week 25-50 prims from Ravenglass Rentals, the mall alternative.
Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
03-29-2005 07:34
From: Prokofy Neva
Your attitude "This is Second Life...I'm not going to get worried about my free furniture" is pandemic. You imply that a) you can determine what "Second Life" is.



Yes... I can determine what my Second Life is. Thats why I pay LL every month. I do not log in to adhere to YOUR rules. If you want to make it into a money game.. go right ahead. I have no problem with that. But stop telling what other people what they should be doing. We have absolutely no responsibility to you or your business.
_____________________
Tang Lightcloud
Sweet & Juicy
Join date: 22 May 2004
Posts: 377
03-29-2005 07:35
Who declared the new continent or the area you speak of a residential area? Who was the authority that came along and plopped down a declaration for all to adhere to and said "Here ye here ye from this day forth this entire area is a residential area. Only builds allowed here area are those approved by his majesty Sir Profoky". Some how, when the new continents came out, I missed that declaration.

""and a sense of their *own right to determine what the public interest is* and this needs to be challenged."""

Isnt this what you are trying to do with all your points and counter-points? Are you not basically trying to determine what is in the best interest of the SL public? You continue to insist there is a FIC when you are becoming the very thing you say you are fighting against. . . "selfless, self-sacrificying, public-interest-minded entity of the universe."
Kris Ritter
paradoxical embolism
Join date: 31 Oct 2003
Posts: 6,627
03-29-2005 07:38
From: Prokofy Neva
megabuilders


W00! A new Prokofyism :)

I shall file that with the others under P (for paranoid).
Bruno Buckenburger
Registered User
Join date: 30 Dec 2004
Posts: 464
03-29-2005 07:46
From: Prokofy Neva
What's especially obnoxious about this enterprise is that they are making grossly false accusations made against me and others to the effect that we are "pressuing and scamming newbies" out of their first land on this sim (yeah, all of 2 pieces LOL). I suppose what could be going on is that this prim-hungry bunch want to make sure they have eminent domain to break through to the sea themselves, since they didn't land a prime waterfront area themselves.


It's a shame that one had to read through the entire post to get to the real meat of the issue. The building is fine. A helluva lot better than others. Actually, there are only 3-5 builders here who do superior work. Probably another 10-20 who troll these boards who think they are good but actually suck. Finally there are mostly people like me who have one view in our mind's eye that doesn't quite translate well when we build in world.

My problem with this particular thread is that your issue really isn't the building. It is with the builders, their cohorts and their problem with you. I'll tell you what I told Anshe when she pulled the same crap last week against percieved competition; you come off like a petulant child.
Pathfinder Linden
Administrator
Join date: 15 Mar 2005
Posts: 507
03-29-2005 08:09
OK. I'm closing this thread, since at the core of it is a series of interpersonal conflicts and attacks that people are unwilling to let go of.

If anyone *restarts* these flamewars in a new thread, I'm just going to start deleting the flames with no further warnings.

If anyone wants to start new threads thoughtfully discussing the possibility of zoning laws organized by residents or how to work with your neighbors on establishing good community relations (important topics brought up in here), I hope you do.

<Pathfinder puts on his asbestos suit and gets his extinguisher ready, but truly hopes he doesn't have to use them>
1 2 3 4 5 6 7