The Big Prim Problem

Hello everyone, as a 2d and 3d content creator with almost a dozen years experience, these mega prims are a useful tool in my SL trade as well as alleviate high prim (texture surfaces being rezzed) lag. As a builder in SL I have used them responsibly since I have obtained them. I have made very large and spacious homes for myself and for freinds saving ourselves sometimes hundreds of prims. I have seen large builds (castles etc...) using them exclusively. I have never experienced any maladies or any graphics or physics engines faults due to a megaprim. Often times they cut down on lag in a high lag area. My philosophy regarding the size restrictions as stated in earlier posts: I think it is a good idea to eliminate anything over 256x256 since if there were any trouble caused to the physics and graphics engines it would come from them crossing a sim border although I have done this in the past with no ill consequences. if someone owns say 4 sims corner to corner then let them put out 4 of these256x256 meter prims.

These prims are very useful for increasing the square footage of land within your chunk of land say have one prim 256 m^2 at about 350 meters on the z axis and maybe another at say 500 meters and another at 700 meters and you just increased your land utilization factor by a magnatude of 3 and even shouting will not penetrate the distance barrier. As long as they are at 128 on the x axis an 128 on the y axis the fit perfectly inside a sim with no sim border crossing issues or anything.

Anything larger than 256x256 meter prims is only a potential lag inducer / sim crasher and will definitely cross a sim border possibly even two sim borders or even more for larger ones.

That brings me to the cons of this debate. First let me state that if a SL greifer / terrorist is going to assault anyone or anything they will use anything at hand regardless of whether it is LL legal or not. As long as folks use them responsibly as with any prim there should not be an issue with their usage. LL allows us to use normal prims even though all greifing that used a prim had to use a normal prim before the mega prims were released. If a neighbor has a normal prim the crosses over onto our land we either accept it or reject it. If it bothers us then we page a linden or file a useless help report or in the past have contacted live help to get the offending prim removed anyway. What is the difference if it is a normal prim or a mega prim. since in my experience the actually help to reduce lag why not keep them?

Lindens I have a question for you: do these mega prims create any issues on your end regarding server functions or packet/networking issues?

The only bad thing I can say about them I can also say of a normal prim... if you are at a high altitude above 500 meters it is sometimes hard to place objects. This is because of the angle of the camera to your dropped inventory item to the edge of the sim. If you focus your camera straight down on the surface you want to rez your item on you can place anything as long as it is at least far enough from your avatar (at least the distance of half the size of the item away from you).

Again this happens with a normal prim rezzing surface as well as with the mega prims.

I hope this post serves to remind folks that mega prims are a very useful tool in the hands of a responsible builder/creator. If one should cross into your space please do not think it is a big evil monster out to attack you. Just tell the owner of the offending prim to remove it like you would with a normal prim.

To me Megaprims are a very useful non issue!

Regards,
Guitarhero Dougall

well the major issue with mega prims is with the new physics engine.

why not make a completely new prim type that's interacts differently with havoc in the fact that it's only a cube(no morphing just resizing). I mean collision with cubes are some of the easiest types of collisions if havoc can't manage any sized cube for it's collision calculations exactly why is it used everywhere.

so you end up saving server cycles for physics, bandwidth usage because it has half the data related to it compared to normal prims, and you use less storage.

Remove *all* the non-standard prims created with an exploit (or remove any prim bigger than *see the next point);
Increase the size of prims in the common editing tool to a more realistic size (eg: 20x20 or 50x50).

This will give ANYONE the possibility to have that "advantage", plus it will eliminate (or reduce) the problem of these "huge" prims (more than 50x50) use by griefers (excpecially as attachments) to £"£/£"/!""! our balls.

As I use Mega Prims in my buildings they should be limited to try to stop abuse.
There for I think they should get rid of anything over 65536 Cubic Meters and lager than 255 Meters in any direction.

That will remove the prims which sizes are: 50x 50×50, 100×100x100, 150×150x150, 256×256x256, 1024×1024x0.01, 1024×1024x1, 1024×1024x100, 2048×2048x2, 65535×65535x0.01

and allow the use of Prims sizes: .1x 10x 50, 1x 1x 100, 1.75x 7.25x 40, 20x 20x 0.5, 20×20x60, 32×32x40, 40×40,x40, 100×100x0.01, 256×256x1.

If not already I also believe that set to Physical should be disabled as I see no benefit in Physical Mega Prims.
In the end I hope the action taken is just limitation instead of complete removal of Mega Prims.

I agree with many of the posts here, the problem is caused by ppl's lack of sensibility and respect to others. I use these mega prims very seldomly. for example the smoke stack on the SS Galaxy is a good example. With care to it's location and textures applied, i dont see any problems with them.

As the governing body of a world, LL should make efforts to promote environmental responsibility and sensibility. Taking away a useful building tool will not help ppl's awareness and respectfullness.

...or alternatively, prims scaling to larger sizes.

Bill Cosby once said trying to please everybody is the surest path to failure. So, rather than try to please everybody, try working with us here.

The main proponents of megaprims (myself included), like them because a large build takes less prims, creating less faces being textured, and reduce seams, leading to better looking builds.

The main opponents say they create more lag then regular prims, cheat the system of resources, and wreakhavoc (no pun intended) on physics and sim crossings.

Now, if there is indeed a technical issue, then I would ask that you please look for a workaround. I have read many comments, here and elsewhere, as to the for/against (mostly for). My opinion is, if there is some great bug that they are the source of, then
1) explain it to us clearly and not just say "bugs...griefing...ooo look, new shiney thing"
2)offer up some kind of reasonable alternative rather than just yanking it from under our feet.

Yes, it is your show. Yes you must look out for the overall health of the grid, and yes, like any other game "conditions may change during game play." I know: I read and agreed to the TOS.

And yes, when you first kept new ones from being made you said they were ok to use "for now." However, since then, they have become a staple of SL architecture (how many are used in your partner IBM's multisim campus?) For my own part, I have never encountered (that I'm aware of) the conditions described by those that are against megaprims.

Please do not remove megaprims en masse. If size limits must be set as some sort of compromise, so be it. However, consider the amount of content affected, the time and system resources additional prims will add, and the overall amount of balking you will have to put up with if you do remove megaprims without offering up a reasonable alternative.

10 meter max just isn't realistic.

A suggested compromise:

* Increase max physical prim size to 50
* Create phantom-only prim type up to 200
* Post 6 month "megaprims will be banned" warning and one at each month to allow people to port to supported larger prims
* Follow through by returning/deleting all megaprims when you said you would (Linden got itself in this mess by not immediately resolving this and letting them be used in this limbo state)

I have no proof, but everytime I or friends get ejected 30 meters just from standing up there is almost always a megaprim nearby.

I prefer a more stable grid (and anything that can help get Havoc 4 deployed) over any impact removing unsupported, controversial mega prims would present.

The rest is just context...

/me stands on soapbox

Personally, I struggled with the decision to use megas. Ultimately I decided the risk of using a griefer-used/hack-originating/controversial megaprim anywhere, in any build, was too risky, even irresponsible--especially in any build for which one is paid. Technologists are paid, in part, to avoid risk in the products they produce for their customers (which, ironically, is why I can't currently recommend Second Life to many interested customers for its instability).

People who chose to use these controversial megaprims also chose the risk associated with it that their builds would someday be blown apart. I wish they would step up to that. Unfortunately, that rings hallow and, yes, soapboxy to the i-made-a-bad-choice-now-fix-my-problem crowd, (which incidentally is everywhere these days, not just in Second Life). I find it difficult to find sympathy for them now--especially if I have to wait longer for stability improvements and Havoc 4 because of them.

/me hopes others will respect a contrary opinion rather than f-bombing and flaming

Anyone ever seen 1000mx1000mx1000m prims used anywhere? I haven't and would be interested to know just how many "bigger than sim" prims are out in the world?
You can't see further than 500m anyway, so it's not for looks.
You'd have to own 16 islands to use it for a start any reason it's impossible to use a 256mx256m in each sim instead, I imagine a prim that size could be a problem when that particular sim is down and the other 15 are suddenly left with no floor.
I'm just assuming most people using a sim sized prim would be using them for floors & ceilings, after all after you put a 256 cube in a sim theres not much room for anything else really to use the other 15,000 prims on the sim.
The last thing we want to do though is allow building of anything over 10m from the normal build menu, if you have to get megaprims from another resident or a store then modify them great, but we don't want noobs rezzing 256m plywood cubes or spheres rolling physical across the grid.
I'm gathering what ever descision results it will be implemented with Havoc4 when it hits the grid, it seems to be the reason they are concerned. The clock is ticking fast.

Linden Labs has always used the prim market to profit from residents. Giving us just enough to scrape by but not enough to really build and add optional objects. Large prims are a wonderful assest to those who own large plots of land. A responsible adult knows to use them wisely and only on his/her own land. Perhaps if Linden Labs has a concern about their use or "responsible" use they should consider two suggestions:

1. Double our prims for plot sizes so we wont have to use oversized prims to save on prim usage. We cant all afford to keep buying up more and more land to get more prims. Most residents do have an rl budget to manage.

2. Make Second Life an adult game again. Stop letting children 13 and over in SL.

I say get rid of them - They enable terrorism, as quoted from a commend on the blog, they cause lag, and strain on the server.

Shouldn't this question only be asked to the current land owners footing the bill and providing the places that everyone else goes to? I like the creations I have seen with mega prims and believe they have done more to make SL a better place than worse.

You can't rez trees on most land. Ditto that for megaprims.

You can't wear trees. Make it the same for mega prims.

You can't script trees. Do likewise for megaprims.

Trees are PHANTOM. Ditto that for megaprims greater than some arbitrary size.

Trees can't be linked, or picked up as coalesced objects.

Enable this by adding an 'Oversize' checkbox option, like phantom or physical, that can only be set if all conditions are met. Unlinked, unworn, over permissible land. (allow it to be unset at anytime, which would auto-scale the object back to 10x10x10 proportionately. If you want an animated texture on your megaprim set that up before you oversize it.)

Then allow anyone to create their own prims up to ... well, 256x256x256 if they way.

This would eliminate nearly all forms of griefing done by megaprims, and not threaten any of the current legitimate uses for them.

I'm not sold on this massive lag issue created by megaprims, I am around them often and use them myself and have seen no such consequence.

(Personally anything larger than 256x256x256 seems bogus because few people have their draw distance set far enough to see larger objects properly unless looking at them from inside, and sometimes not even then.)

I think it's pretty clear the HUGE megaprims need to go. The ones on the smaller end are very useful. People are going to either use 100 10x10s or one big megaprim for floors and such... I figure the one megraprim is less taxing on inventory, building effort, and the graphics/3d engine.

I'm a builder to and utterly stingy with my prims. A lot of us love some of the mega prims and use them to wisely to simply conserve and never to intentionally grief. Obviously the region sized prims need to go but please carefully think about not throwing the more reasonable sized ones away. Please keep the ones under 100m. The ability to save around 1 to 50+ prims allow us to place nice little decorative items that are not so easy on the prim budget.

Without oversize prims to help us save prims you're going to have A LOT of boring landscape. Because people are going to have to choose between furnishing there home and giving some prims to the land. And I'm sorry but the style limits on those one prim trees just don't do it. "Oh gee them thirty pine trees that look all alike...wow I feel like I'm really outdoors now..." (sorry for the sarcasm)

I wonder if tiny prims also affect performance as well...either way...the limits on prims need to be seriously rethought. Some say that the over sized prims cause problems but I've also heard so do sculpties. Sorry Linden's but the default limit of nothing less than .01 and greater than 10ms doesn't cut it anymore.

Without these pims my Place would not be as well fiished as it is why dosnt Linden add reasnable sized ones to the Buld list

Don´t delete megaprims...

There are a lot of cool places built in SL using megaprims. There are a lot of people that put a lot of effort and spent a lot of time building them and now you are talking about to DESTROY their work.
Can you imagine the feelings of this people when you destroy their work?

Grieffing is a poor excuse to delete megaprims. Weapons can be used to grief, particles can be used to grief, vehicles can be used to grief, voice can be used to grief, usual prims can be used to grief... then... will you ban weapons? will you ban particles? will you ban vehicles? will you ban voice? will you ban usual prims?
Then ban SL because everything in SL can be used to grief.

You are talking about the presence of megaprims will interfere with the improvements planned for the physics engine.
Which improvements? Until now the actual physics engine worked with megaprims. Is deleting megaprims, and destroying the work of a lot of people and improvement?

I am not a builder but i have built a few things using some megaprims without problems and without causing troubles to others.
I can assume SL is getting worst every day, i can assume lost items from inventory. Until now, i can assume every issue in SL (VAT for Europeans included) but i will not assume that somebody destroys my work in which i put a lot of effort and time, RL time.

It doesn´t matter to me if you double prims in every parcel. In my case, if you destroy my work i will not spend more time and effort rebuilding it. SL will get converted in a simple 3D Messenger to stay in contact with some people i meet here.

I think oversized prims are very useful. I don't mean hideous Mega ones, I mean upto maybe 100x100x100m at a push. I have used some 20x20x0.5m in my builds because they save prims and we all know how valuable every single prim is

GOOD POINTS: Used properly, oversized prims are wonderful, especially in creating domes and seamless curves larger than 10m.

BAD POINTS: Can be used for abusive purposes - BUT so can 10 standard 10x10m linked to form something bigger.

CREATIVE IDEAS ON OVERSIZED PRIM MANAGEMENT:

1. Set a limit on the size allowed and remove all others (with notice) from in world.

2. Make it possible to create and modify prims upto 50x50x50m for land owners on their own land.

3. Make it possible to return overhanging objects even when the centre of the object is not on your land. AND/OR an optional land boundary that stops neighbouring objects from encroaching on your land.

4. An option in 'about land' similar to build, script and object entry, so that the parcel owner can ban or restrict oversized prims on their land.

5. Use the abuse system to deal with people who abuse oversized prims in the same way as should be done for all other types of abuse rather than restict the world and our imaginations.



Removing and banning the use of these prims should not be an option because of their usefulness, and presumably a single 20x20x0.5m object is less strain on the asset database than 4 10x10x0.5????????

Hi all,

like others was saying i think the best would be a compromise.

Idea: - create a shortcut for a hidden checkbox to make huge prim´s
(so unwise newbee´s can´t "play" with it.)
- size´s over 10x10x10 can´t turn into physik.
- size´s over 50x50x50 are automaticly phantom
- new size limit is 100x100x100

of corse the sizes i called are just a exemple.
after we got those new funktion for a while the old huge prims can be removed.

well i hope my enlish skill´s are good enugh to be heard.
so might see you ingame someday
thinkangel.

As others have said there is no point in having unlimited sizes. So the compramise I am going to suggest is not on the size of a prim but it's location. Let the restriction be that a prim can be any size but it may not extend beyond the edges of the sim within which it was created by more than 4 metres.

The principal reason for this is to remove the problem of "falling between two prims" wether it be on a sim boundry or not.

On a simelar vein It would also be nice to have the possibility of "negative prims". These could be used for the construction of doorways (AFAIK each doorway requires the addition of 2 additional prims unless the doorway extends to the same height as the prims on either side).

Both these as prim saving suggestions and as such should have a lag reduction effect ...

I do not think the megaprims are the cause of abuse, they are just another way of grieving by using their big size or by mistake as they are somewhat difficult to handle.
The problem is not coming from them being here but by what we can do with them.

the megaprims is just the easier way to compensate for the lack of big prims SL has.
It's difficult for me to understand why the prim size is limited to the 0.1 to 10 meter range.

Increase this range up to ~200m and convert all the megaprims out there to regular big prims.
People will probably use them better if they understand them better. having them behave like all other prims (possibility to resize them for example) would certainly improve this understanding.

My conclusion is: yes, get rid of the big prims but give us something better instead!

Now that we are discusing the use of megaprims, let's not forget what they were origanaly designed for: saving prims. Longe time ago, the people from Linden Labs have decided that a prim should be no larger then 10x10x10 meters. Why? They also have flooded sl with loads of free houses, beds, furniture, all packed with prims. The average newbie who starts his sl-life with a 512 lot, can get himself a free house, a bed, a chair, a table and a painting on the wall. Once that is all installed, he might have about 10 prims left. I have a suspicious mind, and I think that Linden Labs has deliberately made all those high-prim freebies to force or at least encourage avatars to buy more land.

I guess that it was to prevent this spillage of prims that megaprims have been designed. They enable people to build low-prim. The megaprims make it possible to save prims and to do more with less land.

All in all I think that Linden Labs are partly responsible for the use of megaprims. And I don't think megaprims should be banned. Of course, the 62.000 meter-prims should be banned, but what is used most is for instance the 20x20 square prim. Legalize that, and other 'small' megaprims. Make them official, so they can be modified like any 10x10 prim. It will make life in sl a lot easier and... more fun!

I'm pleased that this thread was created, only 150 comments in the blog was madness for such a huge issue (no pun intended), especially when in the early days of the blog we saw the ability to be MUCH higher.

I read many people saying "There is no valid reason to have a prim bigger than 256M", so far I have found 2, both on private estates.

I roleplay in a sim that emulates a futuristic desert planet where there is no water. It never rains.

So, what about the ocean? What about the clouds? Solution. A 65535M megaprim textures as sand, hollowed out to just the size of the sim then placed at Z-20M to cover the ocean. Set your draw to 512M for a few seconds to load the prim then reset to 96M and you are now in the middle of a desert for as far as the eye can see.

Another coloured and raised just below the clouds and you loose the clouds and blue sky, getting instead the reddish dust coloured atmosphere.

Of course, being an estate means that this huge prim can't overlap anyone else, same way that you can't see into an island that is only diagonally joined to the one you are on.

I guess if the 65535M is killed but the 256M left it's not a real issue, we could do some clever perspective based texturing onto a wall and enclose the entire sim in a huge box blocking the ocean... but the water unless it is hidden is an anachronism.

Megaprims are far too useful to delete and remove. They are very widely used. If anything the labs should legalise their use by removing the 10x10x10 limit and giving us something quite a bit bigger to build with properly.


Edit: Went for a 5 minute search Michael... http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/11/28/second-life-1130-release-wednesday-november-29th/ has over 1400 comments... It can be done and in this case it was Chadrick's initial post.

This being Second Life, ask yourself "What hasn't been used for griefing?". Seriously. If Mega prims are removed for this then why aren't prims in general removed? Why not scripts removed? How about Avatars? Names? Green map dots? 3rd party hack tools and clients? PHYSICS? And don't forget Campers. I've seen all these things used to grief.

Why not increase the size for the legitimate prims from 10 meters to lets say 100 mtrs or so, and then get rid of the huge prims. If thats not possible, then please don't ban the huge prims, building would be a lot more difficult and increasing the prim use.

Rose Bourgoin

32 x 32 x 40 ROCKS! What other prim can you use for a perfect foundation for a 1024m plot or cut in half for a 512m ??