The Big Prim Problem

I've had no bad experiences in megaprims and find them very useful in builds. I would echo Rudy Voom's comments about LL developing legal ones, and letting existing ones remain, but new designs should use legal megaprims.

Quoted For Truth.

I see many sides to the issue. Huge prims can be a problem, but the 10x10 limit is a joke. If LL were to up it to say, 20x20 or 30x30, many would be OK with no mega prims.

THe worst thing LL could do is auto return "in use" prims. Many land owners will not be able to rebuild using so many more 10x10 prims. SL will have even more unhappy users than with the gambling issue and these users are the ones LL makes money on. SL will loose many businesses who will go to SLX only.

So, if they must stop usage, grandfather in all exhisting ones that are ressed and dont allow more to res.

And, dear lord, increase the size of a normal prim. At least double.

I use one of the smaller megaprims as my skybox/workshop above my 1024m parcel. The prim savings from that has allowed me to build a nice garden down below for my neighbors to enjoy (I don't need a house) and still have enough left of my prim allowance to do my work.

I don't see any reason why the smaller megaprims, at least, shouldn't be allowed. Sure, they could be abused (griefing or carelessness), but the same could be said of any prim or object - especially those made out of many 10m prims. I'd say the benefits outweigh the risks in this case.

If linden Lab destroys the mega prims they will be destroying my sim. 60% of the sim consists of mega prims since linden lab formerly said it was OK to use them... It really does help out if used responsibly (just like scripting, gonna remove that too?). Take a look at what linden lab will be destroying if they do this. The result will be a lot of angry content creators and residents/visitors of this fine sim forming a mob in protest and hatred of linden lab. Should we form a petition against linden lab's actions?

Video of Serenity Woods and it's content: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kkfb2vxZPuU
Image of the mega prim sky islands revamped: http://images.wolfeedarkfang.com/sky%20islands.jpg

If linden lab messes with those prims their gonna have a vast amount of pissed of furries who love this sim, forming a mob to get revenge. LL take some advice from me. You want less drama? Don't destroy our content. I remember LL used to try and make their changes trying to avoid messing up existing content, but i guess those days are long gone... Another reason i don't put much thought into creating anything anymore...

I believe all megaprims everywhere across the grid should be deleted.

I have posted a lengthly rebuttal to the points raised in this thread, in my blog, here:

http://playprocyon.blogspot.com/2007/10/destroy-all-megaprims.html

Just define rules for the use of megaprims: no slopover from your own property, etc. Also, make them adjustable and limit the total size of any megaprim. 10 meters is too small for some applications, considering LL has an interest in keeping prim count low and there are too many bugs in stuff like linking.

Adamas

It's less about "mega prims" than about the normal prim limits not being sufficient for content creation. I'm echoing several people, but hey.

We need prims smaller than the official limit--we kludge them. We need prims bigger--the same. They're still kludges and thus "illegal", technically, but the legitimate uses for them far outstrips any potential negativity. Just like regular sized prims.

And I've never had a problem with megaprims. Only good things to say here!

While some do abuse the use of megaprims, it is not fair or right to take them away from all users just because a few idiots abuse them. The current limit of 10x10 on prims is obviously not sufficient and should be increased to allow folks to have nice buildings without going over their prim limits (which are also insufficient). I manage a private estate and even with a 15,000 prim limit, we'd be even closer to that limit if we hadn't used a few megaprims, none of which are over the 256 limit.

I would suggest the following:

- Limit the use of megaprims to 256x256.
- Don't remove any current megaprims that are larger so current builds are not ruined.
- Increase the size limit of prims to at least 20x20.
- And, on a side note, make it easier to create tiny prims.

ANY prim can be used to harm even an avatar or the system: megaprims don't represent "the problem" or, better, they represent "a problem" like all other will do (sure scripts 're more harmfull than megaprims).

As many builders, I find them usefull and I think the internal editor should be modified to edit them also. If, for some reason, Havok don't handle them well, I think the editor should be modified to handle "the big prim we (Havok4) can handle", thus the 10 meters limit is nearly a joke for most of us.

I also think that "normal" sizes of megaprims are 100-150 meters (100x100x100 etc.) but if I must think about a limit I suggest 256 meters, meeting "a sim" measure, if Havok permits: megaprims bigger then 256 meters 're sure rarely used and, in this (rare) case, one can sure use 256 m prims linked together without using a nearly-infinite number of 10 m prims.

I think it will be a great thing that megaprims becomes "legal" (and normally handled by the editor) into SL: this should give tranquillity to a large number of builders.

P.S.
I'm for the handling of microprims also, as Aeron suggests: they're usefull in precision object building.

The best course of action for linden lab to take is to re-engineer second life to allow us to use larger prims without the problems they say it causes. Not to destroy our content. I really do not want to rebuild my sim from the ground up because linden lab changes their rules. Many occasions I've had to revamp my products because linden lab changes scripting or how shiny works or something. LL stop messing up our content please... Mega prims being used irresponsibly? what else is new? Scripting gets used irresponsibly every friggin day. Is it next to go?

If it were down to me, I'd allow unrestricted sizings to prims BUT also enforce strict policing, to make sure that no one was deliberately using oversized prims in a way that maliciously effected others... In other words, let us the builders make stuff the size we want it, but punish those who break boundaries and use these prims in a way that offends/disturbs others, such as griefers etc.

I've bought some nicely made trees that use oversize prims. I have them set up in my mainland Sim, Olopue. They don't seem to be causing any problems there and they look great.

I would suggest that no megaprims larger than a Sim ( or perhaps not larger than 236x236 ) should remain, and that they probably should not be permitted to be on, or near or overlap Sim borders unless they are phantom and remain entirely over one's own property.

So, limit and control the mega prims a bit, but target abusers...

Please let me know if they are, in fact, a problem, and I'll take them down.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Olopue/95/26/21/]http://slurl.com/secondlife/Olopue/95/26/21/

GOOD!

On my private isle (Drachen) a few phantom mega prims make a very large and realistic looking bring walkway design (ie, raised a bit) in a courtyard. They are very useful in saving prim resources, and even good for when making things that manipulate backface culling to save fps.

Mega prims are great, and I think they should be allowed.

I can see both sides of this argument and people equally uninformed both pulling for and against the use of megaprims. Personally I have them in use a my store for the purpose of a platform on which I build and script new items. We also have giant sculpted boulders on the ground lining our parcels which are not encroaching on anyones land but have been used to create the atmosphere we wished to acheive at our store. They're useful in large builds to save prims where it would otherwise require large amounts of 10 x 10 prims.

You asked for examples of mega prims being used for the good.

Black Ronin: Uses a platform made from 20 x 20 prims to work on and mega scuplted boulders to line the parcel and acheive a desired feel to enhance the experience of their customers.

City of Lara: Uses mega prims in the walls surrounding the gated city as well as on the tiled ground inside the city whereas using 10 x 10 prims would make it consuming and difficult to create the same effects.

Market of Thentis: Uses megaprims for the floor of the sky market wherein again 10 x 10 prims would severely limit the content of the build on the ground just due to the number of prims it would require to create the same area.

Bad uses? Sure, mega prims can be used in griefing. I've been in SL for over a year and I've seen it done one time. Getting rid of megaprims isn't going to stop greifing. If your going to get rid of anything used in griefing, there go scripts, prims, avatars and well logging into SL altogether, all things used in the course of griefing.

Reasonable Solution? Limit their size to 100 x 100. This gets rid of the upper tier of prims and still allows for those of us that have found legit uses for them to continue on happily.

What troubles me the most about this "megaprim" problem is that there are other vastly more important issues in SL. For example texture theft via GLintercept. This is a security issue costing some residents hundreds if not thousands of dollars and little to nothing has been done about it.

Noted skinmakers and clothing makers are being threatened now by people who are selling their creations at discounted prices with having their items given away if they file any sort of complaint against them with Linden Labs. Complaints and lawsuits are flying all over SL due to the use of GLintercept as a tool of theft. I would personally hope to see Linden Labs in the future focus on serious security issues such as this rather than oversized prims.

(Translated with Google. Sorry if this seems written by an alien)

I realize that the problems huges generate due the limitation of 10 meters and 1 centimeter in HAVOK 1.X.

I had hoped that the upgrade to 4.X HAVOK that limitation was less restrictive, perhaps expanding to 15 or 20 meters and as a lower limit perhaps 10 or 20 millimeters.

The huges greater than 256 meters are totally useless, I can not imagine that can have practical value. Those in my view can be eliminated directly.

A utility of huges is at ground level. Most regions that provides in Mainland are very mountainous and irregular and hardly allows us to raise or lower the level of soil a few meters.

If we could put on the same level field of a pitch, we could avoid using many huges.

Another use of huges is making giant planets (40x40x40 or 50x50x50) to recreate within other environments using the appropriate textures. For example: I invite him to visit "Venufalat 233, 161, 487".

The third most common is the use of the platforms, but these are often not too big, as much 32x32x0.5.

Conclusion, I believe that kicking the huges greater than 256, and allowing greater control of the ground in mainland would avoid most problems.

Two additional measures to avoid problems with huges could be:

1 - Avoiding that can be done rezz a huge larger than the plot in which he intends to make rezz.

2 - Avoid rezz huges of over 30 meters to less than 500 meters high.

Greetings.

adding my 2 cents worth too...
i like mega prims, am still learning, a bit slow...i made mistake of pulling out a megaprim on my land instead of taking it to a sandbox...i covered the whole sim...
another time, somehow, someone put a megaprim i owned...on other land..dont ask me how...i was never in that area, and i dont think megaprims fly...
so...
yes we live with griefers messing with us...
...megaprims make it so much easier, then trying to align...lol...
and i see builders make good uses of them...
and the low prim, sure helps the war one has with limitations on prims...
if we got rid of everything the griefers mess up...there would be no game...
i think something needs to be done so we dont have the problem, like finding a place where they can get intense psychotherapy, and in a place where they cannot script or do other harmful things, so we can use our game time, not playing self defense...

I'd say removing any megaprim over 126 meters in any dimention, as a cube of that size would be 1/4 of a region. Smaller could have conceivable uses, anything larger would pretty much cause greif/encroachment issues. Most people don't own more than 1/4 of a sim, so restricting megaprims above this should be fine.

I think that the fair decision would be to make judgements on a case-by -case basis. If someone is being abusive , then definetly address the issue. I find that most in SL are friendly and willing to work to resolve issues. Often...people are not aware they are creating a problem. They should have a chance to remidy situations instead of signing on one day only to find objects missing. If it's really a problem ..give someone a chance to remedy it. Most problems are shades of gray not black and white. Let's don't start chipping away at the fairness (live and let live) policies that Linden Labs tries to uphold.

mega prims are nice for dealing with large flat spaces, but over 50x50 and they can be a real pain. i use that 20x20 contantly in my builds
what i think would be the perfect solution would be to increase the max prim size to more like 30x30x30, 50 even. then you could get rid of them

In terms of mega prims being used for griefing, if it's so easy for Linden Labs to tell who is using the prims, where they are, and how big they are, it might be high time implementing a system that prevents users with no payment info on file from being able to rez prims with a certain size in the first place. This would just be an initial start perhaps, as I know there are many legit users who don't have info on file who could and do rez them. The real problem are those 20 people (or however many) or so who are able to register with an infinite number of accounts that make the mega prim the scourge it is on the mainland.

I'd recommend getting rid of the mega prim altogether but at least give us some more regular prims to work with in their place. I use them because they can be incredibly efficient when constructing large builds, but I've found that sometimes, especially in a high traffic sim, mega prims have a bad habit of not allowing people to rez anything on them the more people there are that are standing on them. I know there is an issue of server lag and the more prims are on a server the more it lags, but there has to be some kind of compromise in that area--maybe boost the number of prims allowed on an island if owners are given an option that restricts the numbers of prims avatars can have as attachments (*cough* 512 prim boots *cough*). Sims that really need the extra prims could thus do so, whereas those that did not wouldn't need to worry or change anything. And when you think about it, why don't land owners have that capability anyway?

I have found some major tricks with using mega prims so I am for keeping them.

Megaprims are great for saving prims on building structures. The only problems I have found with some prims is if they are low to the ground and more than 20x20 they tend to collide with other objects including avatars. I believe this is because the asset server might not know how to handle the combination. When the prims are in the air there is usually not any issues with colliding that I have seen.

Mega-Prims are incredibly useful. As an almost two-year veteran I can attest to the great qualities of the Mega-Prim kind. I have been a premium member for quite a while and stumbled upon the most useful object in my inventory, a 20x20x.5 Mega-Prim. I love it, I can't built all sorts of things with it. This Mega-Prim saves me three 10x10 prims every time I use it. With those extra prims I can place lovely Linden trees. I have never encountered Mega-Prims being used in an inappropriate way. I do, however, see normal sized prims used in abusive ways. The abuse is the individual, not the prims.

Solution to the problem:
Increase the size limitations to 30 meters on each side, and do away with prims larger than that. Increased prim size, leads to more efficient use of prims, leading to more prims to spend, leading to more objects being bought, leading to more linden being spent, leading to more linden being bought! See, it's a beautiful thing.

I am an entertainer in SL. I see countless applications in special effects development and building where a mega prim is a beautiful tool to work with. They create atmosphere for my show and are not interfering with anyones SL experience when in my hands. Many a competent builder will use a mega prim to create grand builds.

I have heard folks say get rid of mega prims so we can stop griefers from their terrorism. I have news for you, griefers don't need mega prims to grief. all that a greifer needs is access to the same technologies we all have in our hands.

I surely have seen folks who do all sorts of things that violate TOS using abusive scripts. Should we outlaw scripting? I have also seen griefers grief by building offensive builds as a form of visual griefing, so by this argument, we should all not be able to build in SL, either.

Like all tools in inside this world, mega prims can be used for good or evil. Please find ways to minimize the abusive users. Griefers use all of our tools against us. I would like to see LL develop more ways to hold folks who practice abuse here accountable for their actions but by all means let the good uses of the mega prim continue.

Enjoy The Magic of Second Life,

Tuna Oddfellow,

Master Magician

I vote for the mega prims. They are very useful and necessary for building.
I think ppl use them normally responsable. I at least think I do it.
There is always sometimes abuse. But there are always ppl who do things with anything what isnt correct.
But without the mega prims many things wouldnt be possible anymore in SL.
I think we just should appeal at the users of the prims to not abuse them. For instance buildings which are just to high - big prim towers for instance hovering over whole landscapes.
But otherwise I think they shouldnt be banned.
They are just too useful.

Thank you