The Big Prim Problem

By reading through the responses, it's pretty clear the the public is crying out for large prims to be available.

I think the answer to the dilemma should be obvious.

a) Delete the grossly oversized megaprims from the system (anything so big it goes beyond distance draw, for example)

b) remove the need for megaprims, by increasing the allowed potential size of prims, grid-wide. The reasons for the 10m limitation which have been given in the past, have already been shown to either be in error, or no longer relevant, by the creation and mass use of these oversized prims.

Since the minimum draw distance possible is 64m, then I would suggest 50m as the new prim size limit, for all prims.

Megaprim pros -
Prim savings in buildings
Prim savings when creating manufactured terrain
Seamless moving textures

Megaprim cons -
Land sales for the purpose of prim support will be reduced

Notice how I didn't put encroachment on the cons list - because its not a con specific to megaprims. I have encroachment all of the time from regular sized prims AND Linden plants.

Really, prim sizes should be increased. 10x10x10 is unreasonably small, especially if you are imposing quantity limitations. It almost forces people to shop for megaprims in order to develop their land the way they want to, or else be stuck with something less aesthetically pleasing.

Keep the megaprims! Make more! In all different shapes and sizes! Make SL more fun!

That's my vote.

Again please avoid general sweeping statements. Please visit Avatrian Central if you want to know how useful a 65,000x65,000m prim can be. And we're NOT affecting anyone else, because it's on our own sim, so why do you people constantly see the biggest prim in SL as a nuisance, when people who have visited our sim have thoroughly enjoyed experiencing how our sim looks like when we use it, and realized how truly useful it may be in the right hands?

Now you're gonna say "Well, it's good that you guys have a private sim, but what about people living in the mainland? If you allow those ultrahuge prims to stay, then it will ALWAYS be a threat because griefers will constantly use it." Yes, this may be true, but it's not a good reason for banning them--why?--because if that is the case, then LL should also ban ANY SINGLE thing that can be used for griefing, because griefers will use any means possible to allow for griefing anyways. So go ahead, ban sound, because griefers can use that for griefing...ban scripts, because griefers can use that for griefing...hey and while you're at it, ban images too, because THAT TOO can be used for griefing...

...shakes head.

-RODION

We use megaprims in many of our client builds for all of the reasons mentioned, reduced resources (prims & textures), speeding up build time and view time for users. We don't use any larger than 256, typically they're serving the purpose of flat floor space (20m, 100m) or larger round spaces for smooth creation, rather than trying to rotate and splice together other pieces.

They have become important to our build process after receiving the "blessing" in the town hall saying they were allowed on private islands (we did shy away from them prior to that statement).

If you all are going to remove them, please give us as much lead time as possible, as it will mean a significant amount of work to fix our builds, and I'm concerned that you all would consider deleting this much user content that is NOT causing a problem. Further, I think deleting any content in such a manner would be an extremely poor choice and should have stronger reasons than presented here.

A lot has been said already. But I agree totally with the opinion that huge prims are very very useful. I also agree that that 20x20,40x40 and maybe the 20x40 are the most useful (to me). I dont have use for bigger ones, and see no problem in banning the 256+ ones alltogether.

I think that too many prims are 'waisted' already on collections of 10x10 walls, floors, roofs etc. LL, also remember that for each low-value 'wall' prim waisted, no higer value furniture, plant etc will be used. Saving building prims allows residents to spend their money on more expensive furniture prims....


I would suggest removing the 'illegal / unclear ' status of these prims, and instead either increase the max. prim size (maybe only for cubes?), or alternatively add a folder of LL officially approved huge prim to the Library.

pardon my scattered thoughts

the issue of people abusing mega prims is an issue that shouldnt be an issue. if megaprims are an issue then physics should be an issue too. after all, its physics that allows pushing. so lets just not use physics...

or better yet quit complaining issues that arent the problem... the problem is griefing, and they will always be around.....however taking megaprims out of existence will not stop griefers.

i believe the policy that is in order now should work just fine, if the prims become a problem
they can be deleted.
--terraforming.----
this all by its self is a good reason to keep the prims
im pretty sure that a whole lot of landowning second lifers
will be generated if terraforming is nixxed.


i do entertain the idea of one day building a giant sculptie statue.

in conclusion, i think the choice should be the choice of the landholder
if anything i see no reason to have megaprims in a public place, unless at the will of the landowner. this way builders will still be able to use them for private builds

any other kind of griefing will also cause problems with the physics engine

BAN GRIEFERS NOT LEGITIMATE BUILDING TOOLS

Don't get rid of them. They allow for so much creativity that would otherwise be impossible with regular prim sizes.

The artists, builders and architects ( like myself) that truly design out of poetry of the heart to create places to allow people to experience virtual expectancy of beauty and explore their interests truly need the larger prims. We that design need the larger prims for flexibility to be able to make larger sky builds, floors, wall textures, and borders that make Second life more enjoyable for everyone. There is beauty amongst Us from the Eye Dangle's to the Vvu's to the Siss's to the Relics there is poetry in their work. Even those like Sky who uses it to outline the beautiful texture designs of her floors. To wow so many that I admire like Eladon Galsworthy, who uses it for floors to showcase his amazing ideas with furniture, and so many others that I have come to respect and love. Of them I am the least of these. I am visually impaired 72 percent so they say; but if you ever see Gentle Breeze you will know God must be giving Me a new vision. As a physically impaired individual; I am very fortunate and blessed to have found Second Life and some amazing friends & family. Where I used to be part of Upper Management of a huge fortune 500 Company before becoming ill and working for the government in computers and Marketing/ Management . After being ill I found 2nd Life. What a joy not to hear the word "disabled". Here I am like everyone else. Here I have amazingly gifted Sisters and Friends like Vvu and Chayanna. or Cookie incredibly gifted designers that have welcomed me and loved me and their work speaks to my soul to inspire me to press past pain of Lupus to make their day brighterin what I do. I am part of this effort to make 2nd life the best experience for those that travel to our virtual worlds. I cannot thank the Concierge team enough or those Lindens that when I have called have been gracious beyond measure. Sometimes there is a reason for everything. Mainland will always have people just like in inner cities around the world that sometimes are disgruntle or bored or for whatever the reason even boredom will abuse graciousness of others that have worked hard. We have so much talent here and often we are walking in circles or passing the person that can help us. Perhaps, its not the mega prims that is the issue but just humanity even virtually crying out for someone to listen. Perhaps that large prim on that mainland real estate land is really a person that needs one person to say I am listening and you matter. The Bible says it so clearly " to be a Friend one must 1st find themselves to be friendly. Maybe we shouldn't take away the tools for the beauty amongst us, ( for there is indeed great Beauty here). And what of those wonderful new sim owners like Deathstalker My future husband and Love that just bought his first sim of many to come do we say to newcomers you are too late to create your dream because from where I am sitting every dream one has to Think BIG. Dream Larger and Visualize the improbable until it is possible. For if we press possibilities become reality. I think that is the treasureable way Micheal Linden built Second Life. It's where we all are going if we just for a moment remember NOT to lose the beauty amongst Us and press for reasonable, adult solutions that do not compromise the artistry and beauty of amongst us. For there is indeed much beauty amongst us. Please keep the larger prims for the beauty of the artistry.
Charltina Christensen
Owner of Gentle Breeze

/me puts on his ADFB

The perfect griefing method from a master griefer.

Create something of enormous use through an exploit and realise what a use it can be
Release this something into the wild with a few choice spoken words to see their takeup
Wait a year for this something to obtain a huge use in the grid
Pay the lindens off, or infiltrate their ranks
Post messages saying "Grief causing, terrorism, helps raep small children" Delete them all
Laugh the next day when SL is just a mass of holes and people give up

/me takes off his AFDB

The issue does seem to boil down to responsible use more than anything. I agree with comments that have been posted along the lines of a) limiting max size (256x256x256 seems reasonable), b) allowing this size limit to be available for all prims created in world (i.e. remove the 10 m limit), and c) allowing property owners to return any object that encroaches on their land - no matter what size it is. We should be able to be responsible for our own builds, and if not, suffer the consequences.

I agree that 50m should at least be a new limit since anything less i would have to rebuild my sky islands which took me a month to build...

Well Yiffy I think it needs to be 65535M anything less and I can't mask the ocean and sky in one particular sim... and for my nature reserve sim anything less than 256 non-phantom means I can't stop people flying above 300M. Which means I close my island in order to obtain privacy in my house.

SL has few enough nature reserves as it is. It is only as I can keep my air free of people that I allow them to freely visit on the ground.

Leave the pack as is, *all of them* PLUS increase the normal prim size to 30Mx30Mx30M

*Faints* lol

I agree that mega prims have their difficulties when dealing with the physical aspect, but this can be overcome by actually knowing how to use them correctly.

RE: Problems with Physics - I made a sim size race track that consisted of around 1300 huge prims, ranging from 20m to 100m, angualar huge curves, steep declines and inclines and so on. The track did have problems with accedentally falling from the track, causing the sim to crash, but that was solved with about 30 minutes of thinking and minor edits.

Needless to say, after that, the track was lagless, you could have 4 people racing with minimal server loss.

The track can be seen here as an example and also the sim crash (lol) - http://xirdal.lmu.de/cgi-bin/blosxom.cgi/fielddiary

With all due respect with the griefing problem, like many have said, its people that grief, not the prims... You can easily do the same effect with 20 x 40 link set of 8 10x10 prims with the root on your land, spanning over someone elses.

And again, like others have said, what about gun scripts that orbit you 1,000,000m up, disconnecting you from SL, forcing you to relog?

Or the nice neighbour that likes his 4000 particle release? lol

Or the nice land ad owners that rotate 20 stacked 10x10x10?

Even sculpt prims in the masses causes server problems.

I do love huge prims, as to cover a sim with 10 x 10's is madness for platforming. But, I agree that the overally huge ones are redundant for the serious builder.

CHEERS!

The floor and roof of my shop is made of 32x32x40 prims. They work fine and I really haven't had any problems. I'd hate to come home from vacation or something and find them missing... I hope if they are going to be outlawed there will be plenty of warning...

Mega prims no, that's just silly... big ones YES, that should be obvious!!!

Setting a size limit is a great idea but who ever thought of the limit being 10 should be fired and have his head checked. Seriously, big prims like 40-50-60 should be expected just to build a building. How many empty castles do you have too see before you realize they are all totally empty inside because they run out of prims, that's ridiculous and a waste of everyone's time!

As huge ones cause server problems yes, get rid of them for the good of all of us but big ones are fine so what's the drama going on all about here? It's common sense. Land owners pay a small fortune to own land so they deserve the tools to be able to use it, (such as big prims).

Someone also referred to using mega prims to build platforms on water. What??? STOP building on water! Incase you didn't know, it is possible to build in the sky, (sorry,I just had to add that).

Free K

I'm a builder and I use Mega prims myself. I find that when they are used correctly and not misused we have no real issues. Note the statement "not misused" as with any tool it can be misused and that results in abuse of the tool, the system or of others. To be honest I think that Linden labs should expand on the existing set of primitives possibly allow beyond the 10 meter limit as well as add to the flexibility of shape creation. If the very existence of the current set of "Mega Prims" is inviting their abuse then on that point I would support their removal but only if Linden Labs were to offer a suitable replacement or alternative.

After all they were first created to fill a demand were they not?; I think Linden labs owes it to the people of Secondlife the content creators a full set of useful tools and real world compatibility that will allow builders greater flexibility and artistic expression.

that was a song title right?

things exists because they solve someones problems, the megaprims are needed for any number of things, love them or hate them they are needed, so let them be

i think we should ban the ones we have now and let the tool make new ones until 50 mts maybe, that way we can have the best of both worlds, control and own the mega prims we make (they will no longer be call that, they all be regular prims) and forget about the oversizing things we use now... as for mainland, is there a way that if i try to rezz an object biger than the land im in, you just cant do it at all?

so basically, lets keep it, even better, lets make new ones fully editable

For a good builder or good building you don´t need any megaprims @ all. the llaggs they cause and serious other problems there is aleays another smart way to create. So work on your skillz and u´ll see how easy you can get along without any megaprim. Propably LindenLab would be willing to add some extra prims on ther Sims to help peoples out. Secondlife has changed a lot since i came in and building has developed a lot ... so peoples and themes do have the need for a couble of more prims to delelop more realistic style. A Bonus of 5000 prims per Sim would be a big step into the right direction. Cheers and have a nice day

Show me a way for building a 2 level platform, each level 60x60, with walls around, using 30 prims *without* megas. I'm eagerly waiting for your solution.

Ehhh? Orhalla Zander and about 10 members of SL Hobos group visited our sim earlier, making about 16 people on the sim (plus the 5 Avatrian Staff members). I asked them if they felt any lag of sorts (we have one 65535x65535x0.01m megaprim and two 256x256m megaprims) or any other issues while being on our sim, and they said if there was any they weren't currently experiencing any.

More dramatic was when Avatrian Central held an event about two weeks ago, there were over 20 people at the sim at one point, and no one complained about any lag issues whatsoever.

So again, please enough with the general sweeping comments. I won't stop posting here until these type of sweeing generlizations stop. Again, check our sim to see how a 65535x65535x0.01m megaprim can be put to GOOD use, without any direct and obvious hit on SL performance. That's what Orhalla and his group did--after reading my post here, he rounded up people to visit our sim to test it out, and found out that all these complaints about lag and stuff are too inflated/exaggerated.

-RODION

Good Things:
I use Megas up to a size of 50m (mostly the smaller ones) to build houses, shops, platforms. We (me and my group) own some Mainland, also we rented some neighbouring land. We created an open park area (tp to Animus) with an art exhibition and right now we are building a large grotto/cave-like thing in the underground under that park.
The ways in the park and some of our buildings consist of megaprims in different sizes up to 50 m.
There are secret undergound walkways also to our neighbours. We had a lot fun creating all that with digital our neighbours, and i must say it would make me very sad to loose all that.

There are a lot of uses and i still can not understand why it is still not possible to really treat the megas like "normal" prims..
A lot of private areas and buildings would look much different without megas.
Think of nice panorama skyboxes, the greenies area, some Starrax works..

No megas would mean:
My primcount will not allow me and my group to have the same place, what i have now, months of my work and my goups work would be lost.
Some prefab houses i builded for friends, my shop,also our park and most skybuildings have to be deleted if megas wouldnt work.I love to create wide and open areas and that 10m puzzlepieces are not very helpfull.

Bad things
ppl who run against an invisible mega prim???! <grins>... sorry only have a laugh for that reason to remove megas.

I agree, that megas can be used for griefing, but if we want to use that as a reason to remove them, then we should also remove scripting, and free building in any form. Nearly anything in SL from particles to sound even a groupchat or clothes can be used for griefing. And dont forget to take all the vendors out of SL, they can take all your money!
Last week i read in the police blotter:
"Abusing the Abuse Report System!" Hey, lets turn it off too. :-)

Its the old a sharp knife thing: Give it to a sushi cook or a serial killer, and you get different results..

So what i seriousely say is:
Please allow them up to a reasonable size of maybe 50x50x50,
make those modyfiable, because we need them to keep a lot of nice places alive. Removing all the megaprims out of SL would definitely be a big step back, whatever that Havoc thing can do for us.
I am builder and i have some houses to build right now. I would like to know asap from LL, what will happen to the Megas.
Please find an intelligent solution.

33 pages (so far) of responses on this topic! I hope you had a good weekend Michael (we didn't thx!), and will now actualy engage with us on this point.

What i noticed is a lot of buildings ans structures lack the right dimentions and are far out of scale. I think the megaprims are debet here too. Better learn to build with smaller building blocks and target for detail. There are far to much quick and dirt ugly big structures around in SL. And what i have heard, megaprims are illegal. And wit all illegal stuf shouls be removed.

Cheers,

Amy

I would like to have the limitation of 10m increased to 25 or 50 maybe. in this case I would avoid using HugePrims in the future. If this is not possible, LL should allow at least a basic set of huge Prims. I dont see a reason for a Prim larger than 256x256... the purpose of using this is kid of prims is often not a good one

Please visit Avatrian Central, to free your mind.

-RODION