Idea for limiting prim hogging.

I'll have a chat with the gentleman who owns the tower next time he's online. My guess is that he's not doing it on purpose.

as for the power plant, That's just wrong.

Stromkyo, your "invitation" is inviting people to violate this land owner's / tax payer's privacy, and is harassment.

You should be warned for this, and if you persist, banned.

Actually, I don't agree that this is harassment. If the land owners don't want visitors, they are free to set their land permissions to exclude them. As long as the land is open and free to visit, suggesting others go and take a look seems perfectly within what is permissable.

Although I understand the arguments made by Chip Midnight and others, I have to say I still feel that public pressure is an appropriate approach to persuading others to be respectful of their neighbors. To this end, I flew to the house in question, looked around, and after seeing what I felt was a very unreasonable number of prims being held, ranked the holder negatively.

Negative rankings are not often employed, but they are the only sanctioned means the Lindens have given us to express displeasure at another's actions. Since they erode a player's SL economic base, tehy seem particularly appropriate in this case. Now, I'm not saying "everyone go rank these folks negatively." But I am saying that for those who feel strongly about this issue, it is the method provided by the game mechanics to make these feelings known.

B

P.S. I'd like to clarify that I only rated this person's BUILDING skills negatively, as I consider prim waste to fall under the building aspect of the game. It seems a more appropriate form of expressing my feelings on the subject than to continue this attack on named persons within the game.

The pedestals with pics were originally in my Federal Gallery which could not be completed. I simply moved my gallery to the basement which was my intent all along, I prefered to have the basement more prepared but since the boxes I was paying taxes on were considered innapropriate, I removed them and put up my incomplete gallery.

The pedestals were not made by me, I got them from Trinity's wedding.

But now I guess every item a person builds has to fall within an acceptable prim limit as approved by their neighbords or Bhodi.

Bhodi the boxes were removed and yet you did not remove my negative or respond to my IMs.

I did not know that "effecient prim use" was part of the game or part of the Linden message for building.

Bhodi, that beach house is the first home and 3rd item i ever built, the two previous items not worth ever rezzing.

Im sorry if I used too many prims in its construction and was not effecient enough by your standards. But i thought that is why we all pay to rez objects and then pay taxes atop that.

Briana

I personally think that stockpiling prims, for the express purpose of keeping them away from your neighbors, should definately be frowned upon, and hell even ridiculed. Look, as Chip said earlier in one of these threads, one of the major draws to the game is building. If you're infringing on someone else's right to build by essentially hoarding the prims you've crossed a line. Note that this does not including just plain making an intricate build when the sim has space.

Also, rating someone's building skill negatively because they use too damn many prims is perfectly acceptible, and just something you should deal with. Like Kathy has said, the resources are limited and part of playing the game is working with others with those resources. Negative rating and the "witchhunts" are how people are going to deal with those who aren't open to compromise.

Personal anecdote:
In Lusk we recently had one guy using approximately 2300 prims in a house. It wasn't even finished yet. He built it up as one normally would, without any sort of prim banking. Ya know what, we talked to him. He realized that the project would keep others from exercising their right to build there. He also realiized that doing such a house is impossible in SL right now because of the simple fact that you are not alone.

Anyhow, to summarize my personal feelings on the subject: Land controls 'access' to a sim, and how many builders can be there. Prims are free for all. I feel there should be a link between the two, somewhere between Olive model and current model. It should be that if you can buy a reasonable plot of land in a sim, you should have a reasonable expectation to build something that reasonably fits it.

We all pay our $12 a month. We all have the same right to build.

And what do you do when the sim is full? You find the first person with 'to many prims' and pass judgement on them. Each Mature sim has that issue. Yet you seem to only be pointing the finger at Briana on the issue. Like she's responsible for the whole issue at large?

I've been in Hawthorne. I've seen builds just as big as hers and I don't see anyone complaining about those. What's next? We shall complain about the land in Federal being bought up by BigJohn? He's hogging the land and he should free up a bunch because someone wants a place in a mature sim to build?

This thread reminds me of the old days when people were lynched for just being thought of as a witch. BURN THE WITCH they cried, not even really knowing what was really the issue but just joining everyone else on it.

You can justify a gallery, but you can't justify those bookshelves containing 192 prims each. You must know that, because you didn't mention them at all.

You're kidding, right?

Monty Python and the Holy Grail
(an excerpt)
[A village. Sound of chanting of Latin canon, punctuated by short, sharp cracks. It comes nearer. We see it is a line of MONKS ala SEVENTH SEAL flagellation scene, chanting and banging themselves on the foreheads with wooden boards. They pass a group of villagers who are dragging a beautiful YOUNG WOMAN dressed as a witch through the streets. They drag her to a strange house/ruin standing on a hill outside the village. A strange-looking knight stands outside, SIR BEDEVERE.]
FIRST VILLAGER: We have found a witch. May we burn her?

ALL VILLAGERS: Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: How do you know she is a witch?

FIRST VILLAGER: She looks like one!

ALL VILLAGERS: Yeah! Yeah! Burn her! Yeah!

BEDEVERE: Bring her forward.

[They bring her forward - a beautiful YOUNG GIRL (MISS ISLINGTON) dressed up as a witch.]

WITCH: I'm not a witch. I'm not a witch.

BEDEVERE: Uh, but you are dressed as one.

WITCH: They dressed me up like this.

ALL VILLAGERS: We didn't, we didn't!

WITCH: And this isn't my nose, it's a false one.

[BEDEVERE takes her nose off.]

BEDEVERE: Well?

FIRST VILLAGER: ... Well, we did do the nose.

BEDEVERE: The nose?

FIRST VILLAGER: And the hat. But she is a witch.

ALL VILLAGERS: Yeah! We burn her! Yeah! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: Did you dress her up like this?

FIRST VILLAGER: No! No! No! No! No!... Yes .. Yes ... A bit. A bit. She has got a wart!

BEDEVERE: What makes you think she is a witch?

SECOND VILLAGER: Well, she turned me into a newt!

BEDEVERE: [after a pause] A newt?

[Others stare and look at SECOND VILLAGER, who is plainly a human, not a newt.]

SECOND VILLAGER: [Notices the stares. After a pause:] I got better.

ALL VILLAGERS: Burn her anyway! Burn her! Burn her! Burn her!

BEDEVERE: Quiet! Quiet! There are ways of telling whether she is a witch.

[ARTHUR and PATSY ride up at this point and watch what follows with interest]

ALL VILLAGERS: Are there? There are? What are they? Tell us! Do they hurt?

BEDEVERE: Tell me ... What do you do with witches?

ALL VILLAGERS: Burn them! Burn them! Burn them up!

BEDEVERE: And what do you burn apart from witches?

FIRST VILLAGER: More witches!

SECOND VILLAGER: Sh!

THIRD VILLAGER: Wood!

BEDEVERE: So why do witches burn?

FOURTH VILLAGER: [pianissimo] ... Because they're made of wood...?

BEDEVERE: Good.

[PEASANTS stir uneasily then come round to this conclusion.]

ALL VILLAGERS: Oh! Oh yeah!

BEDEVERE: So. How do we tell whether she is made of wood?

FIRST VILLAGER: Build a bridge out of her!

BEDEVERE: Ah ... but can you not also make bridges out of stone?

ALL VILLAGERS: Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Uhh...

BEDEVERE: Uh, does wood sink in water?

ALL VILLAGERS: No! No! No! It floats! It floats! Throw her into the pond! The pond!

BEDEVERE: What also floats in water?

ALL VILLAGERS: ... Bread! ...Apples! ... Uh, very small rocks! Cider! Gra- Gravy! Cherries! Mud! Churches! Churches! Lead! Lead!

ARTHUR: A duck!

[They all turn and look at ARTHUR. BEDEVERE looks up very impressed.]

BEDEVERE: Exactly. So... logically ...

FIRST VILLAGER: [beginning to pick up the thread] If... she ... weighs.. the same.. as a duck ... she's made of wood.

BEDEVERE: And therefore?

ALL VILLAGERS: A witch! A witch! A witch!

LoL. That about sums it up Eggy.

Yep, I did say that... but... as long as there's a sandbox no one's right to build is being infringed. You can always go build, and quite elaborately at that.

The $12 a month does not entitle you to the same thing as everyone else. It entitles you to enter the world of SL and compete for limited resources. yes, I said it... compete. Nobody walked into SL and had a 1500 prim mansion in a week or even a month. When I started there was a serious land crunch and I could only find a tiny plot (and I had to walk there barefoot in the snow). It was months until some land freed up around me and I was able to expland. I didn't resent my neighbors for owning more than me even though it meant I couldn't expand. They were there first. Back then there wasn't even a sandbox. These issues are not new... what is new is this very misplaced sense of entitlement. You have to earn your resources, and part of that process is being patient until more are available.

What makes one prim different than another other than your subjective point of view? What makes a plain cube different from a wall or a chair leg or a book on a shelf? What people do with their prims is their business, and it's first come first serve. It's very nice of people to downsize and share, but they don't owe you anything. Zip. Zilch. Nada.

Who's most responsible for a sim hitting the prim cap? The person with the elaborate build that's been there since the sim was at 50%? The last few people to move into the sim? The person who made it go from 50 to 60? 70 to 80? 99 to 100? They're all equally responsible.

If you built a chair a few months ago and then you take it down, and then build something else, does that mean you were hoarding prims? If I told you that way back when I built my house I anticipated that eventually prims would be scarce so I intentionally made elaborate stairs and railings would you accuse me of hoarding prims? I won't confirm or deny. Why I build what I build and how I build it is no one's business but my own... and the tax assessor.

repeat after me...

"I am not entitled to my neighbor's stuff."

"I am not entitled to the same as everyone else from day one."

"The technical limits of a sim are not my rich neighbor's fault, or their responsibility."

"What my neighbor does is none of my business if they are not violating the terms of service."

Keep repeating until it finally sinks in.

Sorry Chip, but I think you're full of it.

Unless your goal is for no one to be able to do a damn thing, quit, and then you can have all the prims you want.

Why do you think the first thing new people ask is "where can I get land to build on?" not "where can I build and have it wiped every night?" New people want to build something that will last. And if they can't why should they stay? If you can afford to buy some land in a sim you should damn well be able to build on it.

Repeat until you understand:
"I play this game with other people."

"They can build too, I am not special."

I put to you all that the system itself is broken.

<edit>
I think I'm done with this, it's pretty obvious no one wants to change their mind on anything. We all know there will probably be new sims coming online in the not-too-distant future, and whether they are more free-for-all/screw-your-neighbors or follow closer to the Olive model will tell us what the Lindens think, and that's what matters.

Why thank you I assume you meant good common sense? hehe.

Yes, someone needs to build a 50M tall phallus in one of the mature sims. Make sure it only uses minimal primes so no one can complain then about their 'build' hogging the precious resources. Oh but then folks would complain that it was offensive or offending to their eyes. See, its a matter of opinion. One persons crap is another build.

What you failed to note Cienna is that a lot of the people who do 'buy land' are the newcomers who end up staying the 7 days and then leave. Or maybe a month and leave. Then WE the paying people have to wait 60 <censored> days for it open up again. So you tell me which you'd rather have. Unless the Lindens are REALLY nice and after the accounts been dead a while they'd consider releasing such taken land? Like that offer, I doubt there'll be a answer to this issue either.

According to the Lindens, prim banking is against the terms of service. There's nothing subjective about that. Taessa confessed to me that the bookshelves were put up to replace the pile of cubes stored in her basement. If someones behavior is affecting everyone else's game play, then it *is* everyone else's business.

Chip.... apparently you forgot to add one...

'I have the right to snoop through my neighbor's build, life, posessions and basically whatever the hell I want to find something that bugs me, then complain about it on a public forum, ignoring all commonly accepted standards of decency and privacy and respect for another human being.'

Because apparently that one's true too. Right?

You mean the ones she was saving to build a bookshelf out of? Well that solves that. We can all go about our lives again now right?

Heh.

You know, I have been following this for a while and from what I can see everyone involved has succeeded in one thing: pissing each other off.

We have all seen the effects of prim hogging and land hoarding. We all know that some people do not play this game to be a part of a community, they play for themselves and with little concern for there neighbors. This is fine. I myself have moved several times because I was unable to build (I am by no means a master builder and most of the things that I have constructed probably deserved destruction). It is a pain, but I do it anyway because that is the name of the game....Survival of the fittest. Although some of the fittest have made it almost impossible for the majority to survive.

My main concern though is the fact that people would assume that land is bought by newbies, built on and then left after the 7 day trial without any reason. If I were a newbie, which I sort of am, and I tried to buy land and build and realized that the areas with available land were at 100 percent usage and the areas with available prims were 100 percent owned, I would leave after 7 days as well. I don't expect others to take this into consideration when building but I think that it should be pointed out as a concern with regards to new residents staying in sl (who I must add are a necessary entity for the survival of sl).

What we all need to take into account is the impression that we wish to leave upon those who buy our clothes, scripts and objects or attend our events and parties. Do we want them to consider us selfish and arrogent....maybe so. I really doubt it though. We all justly believe that our contributions are significant in SL or at least worthwhile in the landscape. So to say that a 2 prim chair is more appropriate than a 200 prim chair is relative to which chair you own. But we also must consider the ramifications of the actions that we take.

So maybe when everyone calms down and thinks about their actions and their comments cooler heads will prevail and there can be concessions made to alleviate the current dillema untill the world expands to better serve the residents.

Untill that day comes though remember the power of the consumer. If you really have a problem with the manner in which a resident is conducting themselves stop them with your wallet. People have to make money somehow and just like in the real world if you are disgruntled then let that business owner know it by not buying their product or utilizing their services.

As for the bitterness....so goes life....we are all bitter about something I suppose. If we all adored each other the game would be called Utopia: The Barney Life. It would be rather boring. But we can act in a civilized manner towards each other. I have stayed out of SL for a while now...only logging on when no one is around because I frankly get tired of the blatent disregard for others that seems to be lurking around every corner lately. As I have said in other posts, we need more room...but to get more room we need more avs and to get more avs we need to act with a bit more common courtesy and alot less useless hatred.

Well, at least no one's being a Nazi about it.

(oh wait. a few people are, in an odd manner.)

My $0.02:

When I got to build something, I try to visualize on paper how few prims I can make it out of, not to be "fair"
top my neighbors, not to be polite, but for the challange. Some things just demand a higer prim count in order to look good.

:: puts on abestos suit and steps on soapbox ::

In my conversation with the gentleman who owns a particular building in Taber, he told me that he'd gotten screwed by the prim shortage as well, and that as soon as the percentage goes back down, he'd continue work on it. The extra blocks on the bottom level are his way of protesting. I don't think anyone should rate him negatively because his tower is a bit prim heavy. In fact, I think that if he used less textures and fewer prims, it'd probably look terrible. And I think very highly of this person because of his skills at creating stuff. Besides, I'll 'confess' to using a whole percentage point when I put the forge together (for those nazis keeping count, it's up to a whopping 23 prims plus whatever are in the voting station, probably ten or so, for a total of 30 prims). I then linked it, de-rezzed it, and moved it to Varney, where the prim count is a hell of a lot lower and I can finish my work without anyone calling a witch hunt on me. I plan on useing textures and prims to make it look the very best I can. If it happens that the prim count exceds a few hundred, so be it. I'll make the attempt to use as few prims as possible when I make my stuff, but some stuff just has to use prims, because otherwise it'll look wrong, or poorly done. I think that the 'quality' and beauty of a build should be factored into it, along with skillful use of both prims and textures. And I've seen (and shamefully built) terrible looking objects.


Prim economy is not all it's cracked up to be. If my stuff exceeds a certain count of what someone determines is "fair usage" of prims, they can take their issue and shove it up their bum sideways. I'd rather use a few extra prims and make it look really pretty, then try and fake it with a texture that may or may not equal the quality that I'm looking for.

That's the reason why I moved out of taber, at least temporaily. In Varney, it's not yet a problem, so I will (hopefully) be left alone in realative peace and quiet to finish constructing that I think is a really cool idea.

:: steps off soapbox, and shucks off suit ::

Amen. Well put.

There are so many issues today in SL. But for both those who are familiar with old issues in SL and those who are not but are interested I am bumping this ancient thread. How much has changed and how much has stayed the same?

The thread affected me a great deal then and it still does now. I just ran across it again, searching for "prim".

[

I've never been effected by it.

Essence - coincidentally, I came to your bump right after reading A Day In The Life... for the first time.

It makes for fascinating reading, looking back to a time before I was here, and listening to the reactions to land tiers. I especially enjoyed Fey Brightwillow's ruminations on whether she could afford the space for a vendorless store any more! (I acquired a lovely Asian pant suit from Fey just last week...)

And there is Nexus Nash, pleading with the Lindens not to let L$s be bought with real money - and receiving plenty of assurances that he was safe!

Interesting too the familiar names that crop up, mentioned as "new to this world" - and other names that I have never heard before.

I urge all who are interested in SL history to go (re)read this series of postings now, and reflect.

Well paint my tonails and call me Susan! I remember that, yeah, a reminder to those who have forgotten that the 'good old days' also included some real 'bad old days'

Siggy.