Idea for limiting prim hogging.

I'm with Ezhar on this one (page 2 of the thread).

Pass the vodka! Cheers

Ok.... the basic problem with prims is the same one as with land. Scarcity.

Let's talk economics here.

Ready?

As long as prims are scarce, there WILL BE PRIM BANKING.

As long as land is scarce, there WILL BE LAND BANKING.

Repeat as necessary.

A lot of suggestions have been made. None of them address this basic problem, (mostly because we as users can't.) The basic problem is scarcity. If people want a cool, detailed build, they'll hoard prims because they have to. Period. It's a scarce resource, and just like in RL people hoard scarce resources.

The solution to this isn't higher taxes, it isn't 'neighborhood associations' (which I avoid dealing with RL and sure as all HELL am not going to involve myself with in SL...) but is rather to remove scarcity.

The answer to the problem is more sims. Prims and land are scarce all over because the game is crowded. This is becoming worse as our population increases, but with that population increase comes the resource to deal with it. (More money in LL's pockets to build more sims.) I've gotten the impression, (read the original olive post) that LL plans to do this.

As far as the personal attacks in the thread are concerned.... some of us are veterans of this sort of forum.... and we see right through it. I don't agree with Bri's solution to the problem... but attacks on her for 'hypocricy' don't help your position. (Which I also don't agree with.) In fact, having to resort to what amounts to ad hominem implies that you really don't have a decent argument to use against her position.... which strengthens hers.

There are two dangerous extremes here: recourse feasting for your own personal greed and tyranncal, oppressive communities.

Let's find something in the middle.

How about we feast on the community.

I think Corwin has hit the nail on the head.

To be blunt, there are limited resources because the economic reality of Linden Labs situation is such that we cannot all have infinite prims or infinite land - and they cannot offer as many Sims as they would like. And as anyone knows, regardless of where the limits are - humans are very good at hitting those limits quickly. We'd be having the exact same discussion if the prim limit were double what is is now.

So.. the only way to truly affect the situation is to change the economics, which means paying more. Linden need to provide a scale of subscriptions up to and including paying enough to have your own Sim - the more you pay, the more resources are available to you.

Fundamentally, I can see no other way to resolve this. My frustration, being in an almost 100% prim use Sim, is.. not with the limits (they have to be there), or with Linden for not adding Sims (they are a business), or with other players (we need beautiful content) - it is that there is no option to pay for greater freedom should I wish to.

I'm not sure that paying more is the answer... (SL is already more expensive than a lot of online games...) I suspect the problem will largely resolve itself as we get more people. (More people means more resources needed, but also more subscription money coming in.... which equates to more capital.)

You make a good point Corwin.. but as I understand it the Lindens are working to a fairly set calculation of 30 residents to a Sim or thereabouts, so regardless of how many people come into Sl the economies of scale wil never really affect it. Particularly as each Sim is a separate piece of hardware that has to be purchased, maintained and administered each time they expand. At current subscription fee level, they can afford to run the current level of resources per player, presumably - so more subscriptions won't change those limits, there will simply be more full Sims.

But of course I hope I am wrong!

I am not suggesting that we all pay more, but I am suggesting that those that wish to and are able to - could pay more in return for greater resources. The Lindens must know how much it actually costs them to add and run a new Sim, so it would be a straightforward calculation.

What it would allow, is for a Group (if their credit cards can afford the higher monthly fees) to properly own a Sim and build something truly spectacular for us all to enjoy without it being stunted, compromised or derezzed due to taxes.

Also good points.... but partially the numbers are currently skewed a bit.... both due to the overpopulation of mature sims, (longterm problem) and the newer problem of overpopulated sims in general. (Due largetly to the influx of new users.) Additionally... we have to factor in Havoc 2. (The new physics engine that should allow for, among other things, higher prim limits in all sims.... higher than the current physics engine can handle.)

I guess my main advice to anyone at this point is patience. The Lindens do seem to feel that expansion is a priority.... and they seem to be getting more resources to do something about it.

I agree totally with you Jai, I would have no problem with paying more, even substantially more for the privilege of having access to more decent land and prims. One person owning a whole sim is maybe a bit much, but having a bit of elbow room is always nice. As for the problem in Taber, it was about 82% object use when I moved in about three weeks ago, so I honestly wasn't being as conservative in my object usage as I could have been. I saw that Taber was actually over 100% yesterday and was a bit alarmed. I spent a good part of the afternoon killing off various objects and prims in my own house that I can live without. I did it until I noticed that every time the usage went down it was going right back up again. It seems that Snoopy Pico has over 400 prims object banked in that thing, whatever it is he is building. My house is what I consider to be maybe overly detailed at 115 prims, but I could build a whole village with 400. Certainly he must be able to afford those prims and he is certainly entitled to use them, but it is not very neighborly to keep running up the usage as fast as you can without regard for your neighbors possible plans. Also, when you move into a neighborhood that is generally considered to be one of the most charming areas in SL, throwing up first a 'nuke plant' and then something else that has left people commenting on its uncommon ugliness is like letting your dog take a dump on the neighbors' lawns; it devalues the time and effort invested by everyone else in the area.

These are great discussions and really point to issues that need addressing. My biggest fear is that new folks who dont have the experience will get frustrated by all the sims having prim issues and just leave thinking there is nowhere to build etc. Which is not true...but that perception may exist.
It's indeed a tough situation..For those builders who want to make detail ....well right now ...you will have a hard time not to be considered a prim hog. Its just that way unless you own or the person you are building for owns a huge piece of property --it's hard not point fingers when a sim is at 100% and you cant rez a cube .....this is what people will think. It is right, fair etc..? doesnt matter. People are paying money to play and want to be able to make things. Its that simple. I like the idea personally that you are given a prim allowance based on land owned in sim. This way a new person to a sim can buy land and know for sure he or she has 200 prims to use for example. They know up front. No disappointments. Np half build homes when the sim goes 100%. No accusations of prim hogging. So if you need to go detail ..get out your pocket book and buy lots of land. It seems the fairest solution.

and to follow-up on Slate----- It seems that the only people
who understand what we are trying to accomplish in Slate are the people who live there. I have a cabin in slate next to Bob and Crissy ..have been up there since July. I really enjoy the natural setting we have here from day one. Just to set the record staright heres one residents summary of how we got to where we are. So here's how things have evolved ....In July it was mostly empty....and almost all up for sale. Bob had built this beautiful cabin. It caught my attention and the natural setting.......slowly we had some new folks come into the sim who also liked the setting. (But as is the case with all sims not themed )..We had a few folks come and go and some builds (which is their right and I support your right to build what you want on your property) didnt exactly fit what most of us had imagined for this very natural sim. So fortunately --we were lucky enough to have Bob B. come along and had the resources to buy up a lot of land as some of these folks people moved off. He has taken a lot of slack for this but to us folks in Slate --it was a great move that we all suported. It was one innovative way to attempt to keep the sim natural. It was not one guy trying to own a sim.-----This is the fact most misunderstood by folks not in Slate. We knew what Bob was doing and and times helped him do it. I myself made some late night land purchases as folks left with all the money I had in hope Bob would buy it off me so I could play again. He did what most of us would have loved to do but didnt have the resources. So it appeared he was doing this out of selfishness which is completely off base. He was doing it on behalf of the rest of us. He then started selling the land to people that shared our vision of building and setting. Its was all unofficial .We are not a themed sim according to Lindens ..but we are a themed in thoughts of how a have a natural sim. This is by our own accord. It works for us. It only works because we know all the folks we sell land to very well and trust them.
We did have a prim crisis at one point and voluntarily reduced our builds. Yes ...it was not fun watching our builds go less detail...but it was fair. I have said I would live in a tent ..to keep the sim natural then to have a more detailed build. So like others in the sim I reduced my prim count significantly so other new folks will be able to build. Cori's home was built from the voluntary reductions that Bob and others made.
Things are not perfect either..as the group we have is having to pay a high shared tax and some of us residents cannot help with that ...like myself. So we will need to address this as well...but I am confident we will come to an understanding and an arrangement that works. We have confidence in our ability to work together. For those of us who live in Slate.....we love our sim. Is it tyranical or oppressive.....not at all. Nobody is making us stay here. We love it. We are a just community that would rather work together than point fingers. Is this a model for all...no....but it has worked for us.
Sorry this was so long.

Here is my outlook a bit. My main residence is in Tan. I bought land in tan because at the time, due to it's increased land price, it was fairly vacant. Land percent was around 30%, object around 30%. It seemed that less people would pay the increased price. Anyways, I would be happy if they brought up a sim with increased priced land and prime price. I would be willing to pay a fairly hefty overhead, just to discourage everybody and their cousin to escalate the consumption of the primes. I also choose Tan because of another limited resource, which I don't know if others are looking at or even interested in, but it actually is the amount of sim script load. Tan, at the time, had the quickest script speed. There is definately a difference in speed between the different sims on this. I wrote a benchmark program, and at the time when I choose Tan, Tan had a score of 20 while others, such as Perry had a score of 184. (Lower is better, and thus, Tan was 9.2 times faster).

Anyways, I digress. Solutions I see are:
1) Sims with increased prime cost - This would discourage people from going prime crazy, due to the increased price of it.
2) The olive method. - I personally think this could work, and would definately be interested in seeing more new sims follow suit.
3) The expodential tax price method (Briana's idea) - This also would discourage the "going crazy" with primes.
4) Different subscription prices - I am against this. It ties once's right in the game to their real world financial standing. It removes what I believe is so great about SL: Everyone starts at the same amount.

The next question which was touched is why is there this problem? I believe perhaps some have too large of visions for what SL is. I first came to this reality back in Charlie's ran Kissling. Kissling was a beautifully forming city, but the problem was, it could never be realized in it's full amount. The sims just can't support it. A city like was visioned by Charlie for Kissling just can't be achieved.

Why do people have a larger amount of primes? There is a couple of asspects that lead to higher prime counts.
1) Stores - Stores often have a _huge_ amount of primes, since they have all their products out for display to be purchased. I have seen many whom have a more "virtual" way of selling them, via kiosk machines, which dramatically decrease the amount of needed primes to store their 100's of pieces of furnature, clothing, etc. Definately a good move. It is cheaper for the vendor, and better for the vendor's neighbors.
2) Detailed builds - This is a bit of a sticky thing. Some people's builds are amazing, but unfortnately with this amazing looks comes a dramatically unproportional percentage of prime usage. This kind of leads back to the Kissling problem. I think people envision what SL is capable of too high. People argue that they should not be punished for developing beautiful builds. It is beautiful, sure, but it is also forcing those around them to not be able to produce as much. The arguement of "well, I pay for it". I don't know if that is valid. While I did not do, nor could I do, the exact math involved since I don't know how much money exactly is out there, but I am fairly certain if you added up everyone's "net worth", it could buy up the whole world's amount of land and primes many times over. I know for example, and I am definately not on the leaders list for net worth, I could support a over 10% of a sim's prime resources perpetually, or close to 25% for at least a couple of months. Thus, with there being more cash than raw resource, we either need to

a) Match the price of the raw resources to be proportional to the amount of cash.
b) Have the amount of raw resources not be directly tied to the amount of cash.

Anyways, I believe I probably rambled enough, and probably made little sense, so I will cease now.

As a builder, I'm probably a bit skewed on the issue.

But, what, exactly, is the problem with intricate builds? The game is made or broken based on player created content. If i want to make a 400 prim log cabin, well, by god, i'm going to do just that.

Yes, it sucks thatthe prim counts are first-come, first-serve. But you all really need to realize that it is a fact. Economically, and in RL. If you want an inifnite number of prims to play with, cancel your subscription and hook up with Activeworlds.

Activeworlds is great... no prim costs, no economy to speak of, but the world is nearly infinite... something to the tune of several million square kilometers. And anyone can build everything they want.

The problem is, it's a completely empty world, devoid of any personal human interaction. There's no econom,y and very little incentive to build anything. Why would you? if it's 1 million miles out from anything else, who's going to come see it?

SL's economy, like all other economies, is based upon scarcity. It's just how it works. Frankly, I think it works fine. If your Sim gets full, move. I looked at the prim counts lately... there's tons of Sims that can be built on. Might I suggest Minna? 50% land free, 50% prim count. Go boogie.

Frankly we should be glad the world is getting crowded... i mtans SL is getting popular, and hence more money for LL, and hence more features for us.

As a side note... maybe everyone could get together and get rid of "useless" stuff in your builds? WHen I make something, I try to have ti have a purpose. I shy away from stairs because avatars can fly. I don't make bathrooms, kitchens, or bedrooms, because your avatar doesn't poop, eat, or sleep.

If everyone sat down and changed their mindset that SL is a completely different reality rather than RL, and realized they don't NEED a 1000-prim kitchen (you know who you are), we can all get more prims to mess with.

But, I'm not suggesting we act like jackbooted thugs and browbeat our neighbors into changing their building habits. That'd be hypocritical of me. I'm saying everyone should really just kinda look at the purpose of their houses, shops, and structures, and if you're truly worried about prims, delete the unnecessary ones.

LF


In short, please don't penalize me for building how I want to build.

Well, workplace ethics dictate that this be short, but I really wanted to say something about this. I am VERY much against the idea of having different levels of membership resource allocation based on subscription price. This is exactly the best way to construct an underclass in this game, and to create the kind of segregation that would make it rather pointless for anyone on a budget to join. And a sure way to remove the very adventurousness that makes this a Second Life, instead of just a colorful chat room with toys.

If there are issues with resources in SL, then it is because there are SUPPOSED to be resource issues. If the idea was for everyone to have all they wanted, then I *KNOW* Linden Labs can toss a few more processors on the fire. I haven't heard anywhere that money is the thing holding that kind of expansion back. I think this is obvious when you consider the amount of resources that are being deliberately held back in many sims, not to mention the several sims that have NO resources for players. Second Life is more than just Sim City with the cheat codes. In this place, to be successful, you must learn to work around the limitations.

I am also positive that the Lindens intend for us to react in certain ways to the troubles we have, and that they plan for certain changes to happen to our society as a result. I don’t think allowing people to buy servers is going to have ANY positive effect for anyone but the people buying the resources. Sounds like a sure way to AVOID the very tipping points we’re intended to tip.

This is a fundamental difference between Second Life and There. The possibility of an in-world economy and culture comes only from the evolutions made possible by the separation between our electronic world and our Real Lives. SL will actually grow into a new world. “There” will simply remain another AOL chat room – with better hoverboards.

Sorry to rant. Time constraints keep me from both temperance and coherence.

While I am certainly against people using their RL purchase power to influence their SL purchase power, namely through setting up mule accounts to hold land, I have to admit that the situation does not look bright for LL and we all want to see this company succeed, so that we may continue to play the game.
What if a higher subscription price would get you SL tax breaks?
You would still need to be a good player in order to get the money that would allow you to buy land and rez objects.
We have to understand that getting more money into LL's account lets us get more sims to play with. So while people might be able to hold more land, there will also be more land coming in. Think about this.

I'm not sure you heard me earlier The Lindens are not struggling for cash for computers. This is NOT why we haven't all got a sim of our own. Giving Linden Labs more money would not make one bit of difference. If there is a Linden who knows better, please step forward and tell me that Linden Labs can’t afford the hardware, and that THAT is why we don't have as much land and resources as we WANT.

It isn’t LINDEN LABS that has limited resources – it’s each SIM that has limited resources.

The reason we have a limitation on the number of sims – and hence the total amount of world resources - is because that is the way the company intends to evolve an economy. We are expected to respond to the scarcity by being creative and inventive and clever in our nascent social structures.

Sure, there will be more land. But never “enough” land. We may get more prims when the technology allows. But we will never have “enough” prims. This economy will always have scarcity to some degree – it’s how economies work. It is impossible to have anything emergent come from a limitless world.

The ruler of our world is tough and stingy - but FAIR. Don’t suggest that he should become a ruler who treats various subjects differently based on their pocket change.

If you don’t like dealing with limits, go join There. That’s exactly what they are all about. If you plan to stay and enjoy the continuous surprises that SL will evolve over the years, then learn to enjoy the bottlenecks, scarcities, and limitations. They are what makes this place tick.

Kathy's right. We are working with limited resources for a number of reasons, not just that Havok can only do so much. If we were free to have infinite everything, the world would fill up with a lot of boring useless crap and you'd have to fly for ages before you saw anything cool. It would be like living in a gargantuan junkyard.

By forcing us to deal with lean resources, LL forces us to think twice about what we put into the world. If newcomers enter the world and see acre upon acre of half-done crap people abandoned six months ago, they're going to go "damn this game is ugly" and then we won't see them (or their crisp green $$$) again.

Philip Linden said as much in an interview (with Darwin I think) a few months ago. Lean and mean results in fewer and better builds. Unfortunately, it also means some really great stuff falls by the wayside (e.g. Americana), but I think we still win on balance.

p.s. this thread is becoming a ************ festival

The arguments here are good and valid, but how do you deal with prime banking. This is just denying others resources.

That can't be right.

In Taber we have a prime banking problem, someone passed some snapes to me. look for yourself

Taber Prime Banks

Can you honestly say that is the right approach to building?

No, it's not the right approach to building when the banking involves almost 500 prims that are just sitting there, and not being used. in the case of the raw prims piled up by one trial resident on the land of Deeds Greenacre (whom I'm assuming is another trial who didnt sign up) those have been there a while and look more like the building I did my first week in SL than any true object banking.
If Linden Lab would take the view that these many inactive trial guys just ain't comin' back and wipe their accounts it would seem to help the situation at least a bit. Having their stuff just sitting there static for two months or more, tying up resources is a no win situation.

Nope. It's not friendly to bank resources. It is, however, possible. And, unless it becomes specifically against the rules or policies, it goes on.

And this won't be the last time someone tries to "game" SL. Such compensations should be expected - it's the flip side of accepting limitations: accepting that some will try to get around them unethically.

So, what to do about it? Well, a private conversation might be nice, but sometimes that doesn't work. Sometimes telling the Lindens about it can help, but not always. Well, there IS a solution for 95% of it - though many people won't like it. If you look carefully at the Guidelines, you'll not the reference to self-governance and resident policing.

Before you shriek and decide that the only possible form of self government is fascism, stop and realize that there WILL someday be a player-government. Guess who gets to decide what form it takes. That's right, the ones who jump in first.

So, we can whine about how little the Lindens are doing for us, and about the wide divergences between what we think OUGHT to be and what IS. But, in the end, we're going to have to step up and make it work for ourselves.

If you think we need more mature sims, form a government in a good sim with space and prims and declare yourselves Mature. Share taxes, or land, or resources of some sort. If another player seems more interested in himself than in sharing, then drop him from the group and the resources the group shares. Or SOMETHING. Find a way to get it done. The Lindens are waiting for us to take this off their shoulders. I'm sure they’d be a lot happier simply reviewing the decisions of regional governments and enforcing the will of the residents.

Yes, as I've heard before, I can hear the threats of departure from all of you who don't want "other people telling me what to do". Well, there you go. The door is over there. And don't bother telling me that your opinion matters as much as the rest of us. If you refuse to participate in any government, then how do you get a vote?

I can tell you what I intend to do. I'll help organize, define, and implement a government in my home sim(s). Then, I suppose, I'll work to keep it sensible. If I cannot, then I'll work to over throw it.

And from those ashes will rise an even better system that will empower the artists and free-thinkers and irritate the hell out of the selfish and arrogant.

Whatever, I'm up too late. This is not a call to arms, or an advocation of anything at all. I frankly feel I'm just telling the future. So, in the end, all this will take care of itself. The real game is figuring out where you want to stand when the rules are getting written.

(ZZZzzzz)

Goodnight

An insightful post Kathy, but there is a little problem with self-governance in SL. Without power of enforcement, governance cannot be effective and so I believe that "government" in any sense we understand it is not possible in SL.

Without getting too philosophical, if someone in SL is violating the socially constucted norms of behavior, what can an SL member do about it. Exclude from group is certainly one way to penalize someone who is not "conforming" as is exclude from land. Does this remove the non-conformist from your sim? Sure; can you do much more? Not really. You can't collaboratively neg-rate someone, that is a violation of the SL Community Standards (to my reading). You cannot deprive that person of life, property, or freedom; you can't even impose a fine on another.

About the best we can do is form resident associations. And those become problematic in their own. In RL I've seen any number of restrictive covenant associations, from neighborhoods that dictate mailbox design to vacation areas that proscribe other behaviors. What usually happens in those minimal governments is that A doesn't like what B is doing, so they ask the "council" to prohibit it. Of course, the council can't write a law that says "B can't do this" so they have to make a more general law that B then is in violation of and may also cause C and D to suddenly become violators in someone else's eyes and thus tribunals and judges and zoning hearings, and yuck.

Finally, establishment, maintenance, and adjudication of laws is messy, time consuming and downright boring. Which generally means that you wind up with governance by those who have a motivation other than benevolent commonwealth of all.

I don't like to be so cynical about human nature, but historically speaking, we are not very good about self-governance. I admire your efforts in trying and wish you luck in your endeavor.

Good illustration of why player run government is a bad idea. You've already framed it in the context of us versus them. I guess I'm a "them" and my opinon actually matters more to me than anyone else's does. If that makes me selfish, so be it. Personally I think it makes me more altruistic, because I have absolutely no desire to tell anyone else what to do... just like I have no desire to be told by others.

A player run government couldn't add more prims or more land so the current thing everyone's up in arms about would be beyond your powers. Other than that what exactly is so broken that players need to organize and fix? The answers to that are purely subjective. No billboards? Fines for leaving the plywood texture on an object too long? No blue buildings because a majority of people dislike the color blue? Right now we have freedom and are constrained only by the technical limits and our individual imaginations. A player run government will only limit that. After all, how can you improve on freedom? You can't grant more, you can only take some of it away.

What would you "fix" Kathy?

By the way, I agree with you completely about the limited resources. Good post.

There's nothing like good old snooping on the neighbors. This shows to me that in Hawthorne, Taessa Weaver owns THREE bookshelves consisting of ONE HUNDRED NINETY FOUR prims each.

That's almost six hundred prims, on an object that is altogether very very simple. It doesn't look bad, it must have taken a lot of work to put so many prims together without making it look bad, but it displays as having cost 1940$ to rez, and divided by 10 that comes out to 194.

It's funny that Briana opened up this thread given that these bookshelves exist on her property, and I can only imagine how many percentile points are consumed by these three items alone.

In addition, they have three, -identical- vehicles rezzed, and two of another model rezzed, each of which is between 25 and 30 prims. They also have about 25 pedestals in their basement consisting of 3 prims each, plus the pictures on top of them, plus a great many pictures on the walls.

The gallery in itself isn't so bad, I just find it funny that its creation coincided with the deletion of that massive box stockpile she had under her house.

Personally, I have a largeish gameboard, from which I have deleted all the plants and other little details to free up prims. Artemis has her little project in the basement, but that isn't ridiculous either.

Why do I mention this? Because my efforts are FUTILE, when my neighbors will suck up every single iota of prims that conscientious people in the Hawthorne sim will free up.

I invite anyone to come see this for themselves, at 64,236 in the Hawthorne simulator. If Briana and Taessa aren't comfortable with everyone seeing the immense number of prims they're taking up, then I invite them to get rid of those bookshelves on the second floor that consist of 582 Prims altogether just by themselves.

It's quite a sight, while it lasts. 1,000 prims on a little chunk of property.. (Jade Lily asked Taessa Weaver to simply derez the shelves, which would free up 582 Prims for the rest of Hawthorne, but she declined)

>>> Seems to me, instead of complaining about people getting 'personal' about one's actions.. why don't you just stop doing it? Nobody else can build in Hawthorne because of what we see as PERVERSE levels of selfishness on the part of you and yours. We have projects we want to work on -now-, why should we wait for you to find inspiration to finish the damned boat?

Here's a news flash for you Stromko... they're allowed to have whatever they want on their property as long as they pay their taxes on it. No one has any right whatsoever to ask that they take things down so someone else can have the prims. Get used to it. You might not like it, but they aren't doing anything wrong. It's not your place to tell anyone else what objects they should or shouldn't have, no matter how useless you think it is. Trying to whip up a lynch mob about it makes YOU the inconsiderate player here. If your post isn't a TOS violation, it should be.

I'd pay extra for that. I'm sure other groups would pay extra for it.