Idea for limiting prim hogging.
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Chip Midnight
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Join date: 1 May 2003
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11-25-2003 12:21
From: someone Originally posted by Maxx Monde So, this thread may be all about bashing prim-users in all their forms, but honestly what it is all about is the straining of creativity against the hard limit of primitive usage. My solution is to mothball my prim-heavy build and perhaps work on it where it won't impact everyone. That is the only short-term solution I have. Maxx, don't let anyone make you feel guilty for building. You own the land. You pay the taxes. Building is the central focus of SL. You shouldn't feel guilty for rezzing a @#%*! object. If other people think it isn't necessary for you to have that prim, well, that would be their problem. The same goes for Brianna. If she wants to pay tax on 30 cubes under her house, that's her right to do that if she wants to. She paid the money to rez them and is paying tax on them. That's all she's obliged to do. The ONLY obligation anyone has when they build is to be able to cover their taxes. If someone takes some things down or optimizes their build to give their neighbors more elbow room, that's commendable and very generous and that we have so many people in SL who care about their neighbors is part of what makes it such a great place. But the community has no right to expect it of anyone. Like Tcoz said earlier, this is a game design issue, not a player issue. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to prepare some large vats of boiling oil for my balconies 
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
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11-25-2003 12:30
Voluntarily choose to own one unit of land for every three prims your rez in that sim. They don't have to be contiguous, just all in the same sim. Then you are being taxed for your extra prim usage automatically in the form of land tax. (A voluntary "Olive" plan.) Tis the season for giving (or so the decorations at the mall tell me) so give a pile of prims to your neighbor. Can't build today..? There are other things to do. Go to an event, or host one... Or three. Ya can't grow real roots in virtual soil. Think about moving: New sights, new people, new experiences. When you can pack all your belongings in a single box, moving isn't as traumatic as it is in RL. Let yourself be challenged. The only strip of land in a prim-empty sim that you can find is L-shaped? Build An architectural marvel that conforms to the available space. These are just a few ideas that can be ignored, of course... But they DO have a high "niceness" factor, so keep'em in mind, hmm? You'll have your reasons for not following some or all of them, but... Well, maybe someone else will follow them, eh? Someone else can always make the sacrifices... 
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si Money
The nice demon.
Join date: 21 May 2003
Posts: 477
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11-25-2003 12:41
BTW guys, in the past, prim banking was always considered illegal by LL -- so the being banned for 2 days thing really isn't that unheard of.
Be careful what you're admitting to in this thread, I don't recall their policy on this ever changing. Though i'd imagine we'd have to wait for Daniel or Peter to browse through this thread before we find out if it really has been changed.
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Matina Appleby
Snow Princess
Join date: 24 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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11-25-2003 13:32
From: someone Originally posted by Camille Serpentine personally I still don't understand the idea of having a house in SL - (...) Exactly - personally for you isnt necessarily personally for me, so if I have other ideas for my SL than you, that is just how I differ from you and I find that difference great as that makes this a complete virtual world 
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
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11-25-2003 13:49
I haven't thoroughly read the TOS lately, but I also thought that obvious prim banking was considered a no-no by the Lindens and if they are directed to it would take action by issuing warnings and deleting it. Maxx, don't worry about building in Gray - we have long since adopted autorezzers as a method of sharing prims amongst the theme community there. I should point out, though, that you are building on Linden-held land, so be sure you've saved everything to inventory! You may find the building gone one day. To me, prim banking is not an acceptable method of ensuring you can keep building. There are plenty of places where you can go to set up temporary shop and refine your builds. As far as 'permanent' structures go, there are three methods of dealing with prim limits that seem to work well: 1: The Olive solution. Barring resident organization, this is the fairest method - set a person's allocation based on the land they own. 2: The Slate solution. Organize with your neighbors and help each other refine your builds so they don't use more prims than is necessary. This carries the taint of neighborhood covenants and such, but if led well is also fair. 3: The Gray solution. Form a group (or a theme community) that actively shares and exchanges the sim's prim allocation. This only works in a group of trusted members, but once in place gives enormous freedom! Basically the way it works is: place completed projects into an autobuild system so they can be turned on and off at will. By doing this you can basically build multiple "stage sets" and reconfigure the entire sim for whatever use you desire at the moment. If one person is working on a large project while another is offline, they can turn off the other person's stuff, and vice versa. By this method each individual has access to thousands of prims at any given time. Something to think about. Does your build need to be there all the time when you are not? Organization like this, or like in Slate, really pays off. Taxes are lower too 
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Camille Serpentine
Eater of the Dead
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11-25-2003 13:52
From: someone Originally posted by Matina Appleby Exactly - personally for you isnt necessarily personally for me, so if I have other ideas for my SL than you, that is just how I differ from you and I find that difference great as that makes this a complete virtual world OMG - really?!?!? you differ than me? wow what a concept different people, different ideas. sarcasm aside, I do know that everyone is different and uses SL to experience different things. ***new part*** sorry, bad day, typed and hit send to quickly. but I really didn't post the original (the house sentence you quoted) to mean that people couldn't do it, I just don't.
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Camille Serpentine
Eater of the Dead
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11-25-2003 13:56
From: someone Originally posted by Ananda Sandgrain Something to think about. Does your build need to be there all the time when you are not? I would say yes, only because I love to explore SL and the builds are what I look at.
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Huns Valen
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Join date: 3 May 2003
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11-25-2003 14:07
Good post, Ananda.
But there is an option 4 as well: wait for LL to float up new sims.
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Matina Appleby
Snow Princess
Join date: 24 Mar 2003
Posts: 281
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11-25-2003 14:18
From: someone Originally posted by Camille Serpentine OMG - really?!?!? you differ than me? wow what a concept different people, different ideas.
sarcasm aside, I do know that everyone is different and uses SL to experience different things.
***new part***
sorry, bad day, typed and hit send to quickly. but I really didn't post the original (the house sentence you quoted) to mean that people couldn't do it, I just don't. Sorry my bad too. I wasnt really quoting to that line only - I just felt that that sentence summed the content of your post.
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Nolan Nash
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11-25-2003 14:20
I asked a question directly of Philip at a town hall meeting earlier this year, about "prim banking".
He made it clear that it was considered interference with the gameplay of others, and was not something they would put up with.
I happen to agree, even if it isn't your intent to limit the playabilty of your particular sim as far as other players go.
I think it is akin to *checkerboarding* land, which was addressed by Daniel in the Police Blotter several weeks back. Also heavily frowned upon.
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Briana Dawson
Attach to Mouth
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11-25-2003 15:59
From: someone Originally posted by Matina Appleby First - this is not an attack 
I also find Briana's sugestion a good one - and I dont see how that will discourage new people from building(?) as they can still - like everyone else - use "their share" of the prims at no extra tax costs. Only if they exeed that amount will they be taxed higher. One question tho, Briana - would they then be taxed higher on ALL of their prims or on the exceeded amount only? To have any effect I'd go for the ALL of the prims...
Matina, I was so unsure of the idea, it was only a spark and I was hoping that the community could as a collective lend constructive ideas and criticisms. I was thinking more of the line of a steep tax once a certain limit was reached. But I had no idea that people were so vehemently opposed to any ideas that included tax increasing. ------ Ive been accused of "hypocrisy", the definition of which is: a feigning to be what one is not or to believe what one does not; esp : the false assumption of an appearance of virtue; A hypocrite would have claimed to not condone the act; i never addressed the rightness or wrongnes of it. I never in anyway claimed it was wrong or that i was not prim reserving, i was simply addressing the issue with full knowledge that I had made myself apart of the problem, which is why it stood out to me even more, therefore my mentioning it was how i addressed the issue publicly. Briana Dawson
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Huns Valen
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11-25-2003 16:25
I think what it boils down to is that a lot of us think proposing a method for discouraging people from using too many primitives is somewhat at odds with the practice of keeping a number of them in your basement. One does not propose a possible solution to a problem on one hand, while deliberately doing things that contribute to the same problem on the other hand. There are times when you gotta make sure your $#!% don't stink before you open your mouth, and this is one of them. It's like in WWII when everything was rationed, and people still tried to hoard, and were rightly looked down upon for it.
Also, you were kind of abrasive when you spoke to me in-world, maybe you could curtail that just a wee tad.
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Tiger Crossing
The Prim Maker
Join date: 18 Aug 2003
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11-26-2003 07:28
I think what Briana was saying was that she'd be willing to pay an additional tax, if one was implemented, in order to be able to keep building as she is, where she is.
That said, I don't think many people agree with the idea as proposed, though several alternate ideas have cropped up in this thread.
Personally, I'd love to see the Olive plan implemented system-wide with the one change of adding a menu-driven method of buying and selling prim quotas. I think it would really liven up the economy by creating a resource that is in short supply and is priced by the players. (The other true resources, prims and land, are directly convertible to and from cash and are price-fixed.)
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Bhodi Silverman
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11-26-2003 07:47
(NOTE: This post is purely about the substantive topics, and not about the persons involved in the discussions. I am speaking only about potential prim usage models and about behaviors, not about those who may or may not engage in the behaviors!)
I've been waiting for this to calm down a bit before submitting my two cents - so here it goes, although it's collected interest and is now closer to 3.5 cents.
THE HIGHER TAXES FOR MORE PRIMS MODEL - This remains essentially an unfair plan. First, it ensures an increased concentration of resource among the most wealthy: your prim usage still impacts your neighbor's ability to build, therefore the richest members can afford to consume more than their share. As a result, it will forever favour old timers over newcomers in a way that will INCREASE rather than DECREASE over time.
THE OLIVE MODEL - I think it would be unfair to force existing sims to follow this model, at least without substantial warning, but I would like to see it adopted for at least a portion of the upcoming sims. A variation on the model I'd like to see: - Homesteading SIMs: Small plots of land (maybe as small as 1/64 of a sim?) are available ONLY to those who don't already hold ANY land, and only one plot can be purchased. Think of this as a "starter home" sim - someplace where Newbies can stake a claim which they will eventually grow out of, but that ensures a steady availability of land for newcomers.
SELLING PRIM USAGE RIGHTS - I think this is a great idea, and that Tiger is right. It would finally add a level of complexity to the SL economy that is largely missing.
PRIM BANKING - I think this thread shows that, at the very least, this isn't considered "good neighboring" by the majority of SLers.
And now, to the most touchy subject...
THE TONE OF THIS THREAD - Short of Slate-like neighborhood associations, there isn't anything in the game mechanics that allow SLers to create consensus and set these sorts of community standards. So, the only recourse the community at large has is to exert social pressure on those who are behaving in a way that is deemed inappropriate. This being the case, I have to agree with those who feel it is appropriate to point out, and even censure, those behaviors that the community finds troublesome.
It's my feeling that if you find your behavior under attack by the community at large, it would be wise to stop a moment and think if perhaps you haven't been wrong. You'd be amazed how easily things can be set right with a simple Mea Culpa and the immediate cessation of whatever it is that brought on the criticism in the first place.
Bhodi
Actually, I realize I'm wrong about the game mechanics. We could, in fact, all fly to the homes of those who are prim hording and use the new "rate via object" method rate their building skills negatively for the infraction and reduce their cash flow. Not saying we SHOULD, but we certainly COULD.
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Kathy Yamamoto
Publisher and Surrealist
Join date: 1 May 2003
Posts: 615
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11-26-2003 08:30
Just pondering.... Do I really need to worry about selling the rights to my prims under the Olive model? Can't I just make my 500 prims, and put them up for sale on my porch? I could even keep raising the price according to demand, right? Or am I missing something basic (This is possible since I'm at work and my brain is sitting in my lunch bag waiting for when I need it again  Not that I condone this business model, I'm just wondering if that might be one of the outcomes of the Oliev model.
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Chip Midnight
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Join date: 1 May 2003
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11-26-2003 08:35
From: someone Originally posted by Bhodi Silverman (SELLING PRIM USAGE RIGHTS - I think this is a great idea, and that Tiger is right. It would finally add a level of complexity to the SL economy that is largely missing. What would prevent prim speculators from buying up all the prims in a sim and then charging outrageous prices for them? Talk about the rich getting richer! Sure you can have some of my extra prims... for $1000 each!  From: someone Short of Slate-like neighborhood associations, there isn't anything in the game mechanics that allow SLers to create consensus and set these sorts of community standards. So, the only recourse the community at large has is to exert social pressure on those who are behaving in a way that is deemed inappropriate. This being the case, I have to agree with those who feel it is appropriate to point out, and even censure, those behaviors that the community finds troublesome. This is why we have a TOS. Every player in SL has exactly one obligation... to abide by the TOS. As long as they're doing that the community at large really has no right to give anyone a hard time about anything. Those who know me know that I'm a considerate neighbor and person in general, but no on else has a right to try and force their subjective notions about what's desirable or not on me or anyone else. People have to get over the idea that they can control what their neighbors do. If they aren't vioating the TOS and yet are being given a hard time by the community, it's the community that's overstepping its bounds, not the one being harassed. This is not mob rules. There are already mechanisms in place for dealing with people who violate the TOS. My personal opinion is that if you think having neighborhood associations and player run governance would make SL a better, fairer, more democratic place, you're a dreamer. SL would become a collection of small clique-ish dictatorships.
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Bhodi Silverman
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11-26-2003 08:56
From: someone Originally posted by Chip Midnight What would prevent prim speculators from buying up all the prims in a sim and then charging outrageous prices for them? Talk about the rich getting richer! Sure you can have some of my extra prims... for $1000 each! Again, nothing would stop people from speculating in prims the same way they do land - except for land-owners level of willingness to sell off their prim rites. But perhaps some other measures would need to be put into place - such as only making a PORTION of the prim allowance given a land-holder saleable. I dunno. From: someone My personal opinion is that if you think having neighborhood associations and player run governance would make SL a better, fairer, more democratic place, you're a dreamer. SL would become a collection of small clique-ish dictatorships. Of course I'm a dreamer, Chip! I'm a real life Civil Rights worker. I also believe eventually we'll have equality and social justice in THIS country. What, you want a world of cynics? xoxo, Bhodi
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Maxx Monde
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11-26-2003 09:11
Of course this also opens up the opportunity to use 'prim futures' where each contract gives the ability to buy/sell primitives at a future point in time. Of course, there would be a duplicate market in each sim....unless....there was a way to create primitive 'spreads' basically speculating on the difference of primitive usage between bordering sims.
I'm getting way ahead of myself here. Futures contracts only work if there is a way to enforce delivery from the buyer or seller, and the underlying 'physical' resource. There would have to be a central clearing mechanism - and I'm sure the Lindens are collectively busy enough just squashing normal bugs to work on something like this.
But damn, it would be a neat economic addition.
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Ananda Sandgrain
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Join date: 16 May 2003
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11-26-2003 09:20
I'd have to say NO to the idea of prim trading. I like the idea of tying prim allocation to land holdings. I do hope that the Lindens can free things up so that it is tied solely to the amount of land in total held by that person in the sim, and not restricted to each individual parcel. Count the prims by comparing the land ownership database to the prim ownership database. Don't make any distinctions about where exactly the prims are located.
This would free up individuals and groups to own multiple disconnected parcels while using all the prims on just one of them, for instance. It'll also allow speculators to do all the prim trading they want BY buying and selling land. This will keep things fair as intended - to use 1/4 of the sim's prim resources, you have to afford 1/4 of the land.
I'd like to hear some clarification on this point - are you limited to using prims strictly on your own land and per parcel? (I could never abide by this - almost everything I've built has been on other people's land - and for use by others.)
So, prim traders, (if it's allowed), if you are looking to use more prims, just offer to buy a portion of your neighbor's park (or parking lot, or whatever) and hold it for them. Then you get more prims for your use, they still get their open space, and you pay your fair share for the sim's resources.
How's that?
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Chip Midnight
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11-26-2003 09:32
From: someone Originally posted by Bhodi Silverman Of course I'm a dreamer, Chip! I'm a real life Civil Rights worker. I also believe eventually we'll have equality and social justice in THIS country. What, you want a world of cynics? hehehe  We're not so different. As a member of a very persecuted minority in RL (atheist) I'm all for equality and social justice, and I get involved in activism sometimes. It's given me an accute awareness of how subjective notions of "fair and equal" are. Far too many people think that everyone should have "equality" so long as everyone agrees to be just like them and conform to their subjective values. And yep, I'm a cynic. I will never see atheists treated fairly in my lifetime, but I'll stay involved in fighting for it so that maybe it'll be better for my grandchildren. For now I'll just settle for people keeping their social injustices off my lawn  As our proselytizer in chief is so fond of saying "freedom is god's gift to humanity." Since I don't believe in god I'm guessing I'm not qualified for that freedom ;P What does that have to do with SL and this thread?... Well, more often than not it's the individual who needs protection against their community, not the community who needs protection against the individual. Idealism is great and all, but human nature almost never lives up to it.
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Julian Fate
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11-26-2003 09:39
I have a couple big reservations about the trading of prim allowance:
1. If you sell someone a portion or all of your prim allowance, how do you get it back if you want to build later? Buy prim allowance from someone else? How do they get it back? You could still end up with someone with lots of money owning 1% of the sim and 100% of the prim allowance.
2. What happens if you sell your prim allowance and then release the land? Does the buyer lose that prim allowance since the sim's total prim allowance is now higher than the total owned land? Do they get a refund?
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Bhodi Silverman
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11-26-2003 11:11
From: someone Originally posted by Julian Fate I have a couple big reservations about the trading of prim allowance:
2. What happens if you sell your prim allowance and then release the land? Does the buyer lose that prim allowance since the sim's total prim allowance is now higher than the total owned land? Do they get a refund? Ah - now there is the big fly in the ointment! That one I have no answer to - perhaps sim usage would be simply RENTED? Or perhaps it would require that property could not be returned for cash, only sold to another player, and that the sim allowance for that property would be visible and determine the value of the property itself?
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Huns Valen
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11-26-2003 12:01
this thread could drive a person to drink
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Chip Midnight
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11-26-2003 12:11
From: someone Originally posted by Huns Valen this thread could drive a person to drink and yet you keep reading it 
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Bhodi Silverman
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11-26-2003 12:23
From: someone Originally posted by Chip Midnight and yet you keep reading it He didn't say drinking was BAD... 
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