Idea for limiting prim hogging.

How about a system that works very similar to real world taxes? The Lindens can charge a higher object tax per property plot, determined by the number of prims rezzed; just like real world taxes.

This way a person can rez like 300 prims on a 1/32nd size plot with regular object tax; but after 300 the object tax increases to a higher bracket and then again at 500 (or another number) and so on from there.

This way people really do pay to have massive prims rezzed.

I could detail this more, but I believe its easy to understand the concept for those of us who pay taxes in RL. I just think its important that the object tax bracket increases be contained to each seperate property per sim or at least have a nice distance so that people just dont divide their property into a bunch of slices to avoid the evil Tax Linden.

Briana Dawson

What if i'm not hoarding prims though? What if i have just a highly detailed house? Are you going to penalize me because I like meticulous detail?

LF

Lol well you can start your quest to fight the good fight against prim hogs by clearing out that mess of cubes you have under your house in Hawthorne

Hrmm.. Isn't this your house, Bri?

Seriously, that's well over a hundred prims. It doesn't matter what plans you have, 'reserving' more than a hundred prims is abusive to all the other builders in a simulator.

Nothing personal, I think -anyone- who has over 20 'reserve' prims at a time should have to trim it down. If your project is going to require that many prims, then choose somewhere where prim quota is in good supply.

I think prim -density- should be taxed, if that is possible, because land prices are very expensive but a teensy, incredibly dense area still takes an extremely long time to load.

It's like a black hole, time slows down as you get closer to the event horizon. =)

Seems to me a tax like this would only serve to discourage new players from building at all and experienced players from building detailed places of interest.

But most prim hogs i've seen are players with lots of money to spend so a little more tax wouldnt stop them, neigh would help them, since all the new players couldnt build without getting taxed out of their brains.

First..

I made my prim bank when the sim was at 73-79%.

And Artemis, you were there and know why I did it. Im having that yacht-club built and building my home.

I had my place in Federal built and could not finish furnishing it or even host an event because the sim filled and did not wish to experience such a tremendous waste -again- in Hawthorne.

I posted this message knowing full well that I am "paying to reserve prims" so my project can be completed" I also released 400 prims when the sim jumped to 93% so that others could build.

But its so wrong for you to start that Artemis when you personally know of that bank and its reason. And I tell anyone who comes that I have the reserve, just like I told Pendari, Cienna, and Baddog this evening before i posted this message.

And no Lordfly, "Im not going to penalize you". No different than you wanting peoples half-builds removed because you find them tasteless or they have been absent for weeks on end.

The point is you're talking about getting rid of prim hogs, when you are one. For whatever reason you're doing it, you've still got a storage area of a good percentage of prims, more than you should need for your boat anyways.

Like talking about getting rid of slavery, but owning slaves and refusing to release them.

Sorry you feel the need to attack me here because of inworld issues with my significant other, but...

The title of my post says *LIMITING*, not "Getting Rid Of".

Hawthorne is at 101% My 2 projects are now built by dragging boxes from the storage area and reshaping them to suit the purpose required.

It seems my bank was made rightfully so and has allowed the work there to continue albeit at a ponderous rate.

All I have done here acknowledge that massive prim users should be charged a higher tax bracket and that includes myself.

My excess prims will be released when the project is completed; but of course you know this already since you were there when i started and stayed with me for roughly 30 hours offering to help build and had been told the excess would be released, until I rebuffed your innappropriate advances.

I also offered Obscuro my entire prim bank and the extra land I had there when he was looking for a new home, at cost.

Thank you very much Artemis for turning this thread into something it did not need to become.

Briana Dawson

As a frustrated resident of Hawthorne, who up until 2 days ago wasn't even able to rez a plant, and who observed an enormous stock pile of prims on land that shall remain anonymous ... I am all for a solution to this problem.

I imagine this problem has been discussed here in the past. Instead of pointing fingers, is there anything that the Linden's can implement that will alleviate this problem and keep the game fair for everyone?

Lyrical

I propose they be banned for two days. ESPECIALLY if they get caught red handed with a screen shot in a thread they started to complain about prim hogs.

Lots of discussion on this topic here:
/invalid_link.html

Not wanting to nit-pick, generally flame, etc...
Briana, I'm assuming you're not the only person with a prim bank, so this isn't at rant at you or anything, just the general situation...

It only takes a few people to reserve prims for a project to raise the usage significantly, then it becomes a swift spiral-o-doom where everyone hoards whatever they can because the usage meter's red, where in theory if all were released the sim could almost be normal.

As for the penalisation for meticulous detail avenue, it's not reasonable to have every deckplank on your porch be a prim - there are far better and efficient ways of doing it. We really need the system to somehow reward _clever_ design. Too much usage of land, scripts, prims, and textures doesn't do anyone any favours, whereas with a careful balance between these, I'm sure wonderful things can be done. Just don't fill land with 1000 prims "just because you can", please?

I'm not sure how many prims I'm using in Tehama but I think its less than 25 (unless those premade trees hog them).
There is lots of land for sale in Tehama but I have to go to the sandbox to open my purchases because I can't even rez a simple cube.
But I think that's because there are several stores now in Tehama. I like stores, but I would like that they somehow didn't use up all the prim count for an area.

Listen, I'm not posting as an attack on anyone personally -- let me just state that upfront.

First, let us all practice a little patience. We know from the Lindens that there will be a shopping sim coming up sometime in the near future, they are working on that. I imagine that when that happens, a lot of shops will move to that/those(?) sim(s) which will reduce the prim count in a lot of areas. I understand prim frustration but the problem it seems to me is that we have no definition of what a "prim hog" is exactly. If we level the playing field and everyone must abide by prim limits (which isn't such a bad idea really) then everyone is going to have to make sacrifices and get better at textures. That's just the simple fact. If we raise taxes on certain *amounts* of prims or whatever, then no one is going to be happy about building anything. It's a catch-22 and it seems to me the only way to solve it is a) ask the Lindens to open up more land -- which they will do eventually, we just have to be a bit patient with them or b) create a prim limit for everyone, period, thereby leveling the playing field so much it's sort of pointless to build big anyway. And that's not going to make people happy either.

Secondly, it never occurred to me, not once, to make a "prim bank" and I'm a little shocked that people do this. I have a pretty prim-heavy build in Darkwood with Yuki, and every time I put in something new I worry about the prim count. It's at 73% right now and I'm working on ways to make my contribution to that less, rather than making sure I have "enough" prims to do what I plan to do. If I run out of prim space, well then, I run out. And I need to reconfigure. I'm not saying anything about you personally Briana, but in general, I think keeping a "prim bank" is kind of against the spirit of cooperation that is sort of required in SL to have a good time.

If I were you neighbor I'd be rather annoyed with you if I discovered a prim bank like that. I sort of understand why you do it -- in a sim with 101% prims, it must feel like "every man for himself", but what about, instead, having a real talk with your neighbors about ways to reduce the count *in general* in the sim? And I mean everyone? Maybe you could ask the Lindens to mediate a little "town hall discussion"? Instead of accusing, how about making it a community project to reduce and conserve? That does require everyone being willing to reduce, though.

Zana

"Prim Banking" does not seem fair to me. If you plan to have a build down the road, thats fine, but what about those ready to build right now?

I really hate to see limits put on each player based on land percentage owned. Some builds are more prim intensive, but they deserve a place in SL. I would not want to see a bunch of generic cookie cutter homes everywhere. I think Zana's and Yuki's cave is a good example, it is pleasing to see it and a few have worked together to make it happen.

Its about being considerate to your neighbors and working together.

People need to be patient. Those of us that have been here since beta have gone through this cycle a few times now. Sims fill up. That's just a fact of life. Pointing fingers and applying your own subjective tastes to what you think constitutes prim hogging is more selfish than actually having a lot of prims. If someone makes a "prim bank" so what? They're paying taxes on those prims so what difference does it make if they're default textured cubes or walls or chairs or anything else? Sims don't stay maxed out. People move on. New sims are added. Things change. They will again.

What Brianna is suggesting would effect her just like it would everyone else so I don't understand why people are taking this as an opportunity to give her a hard time. Lighten up people! sheesh.

I think a tiered tax structure would be fair... the only problem with that is applying it after the fact. People who are already paying huge taxes won't appreciate suddenly having to pay a lot more for what they have. A lot of builds would vanish, and probably not the ones most people wish would go away.

At one time, Prim Banking was considered to be wrong and LL would take action when someone pointed out a Prim Bank.

I have to agree with people that are upset by Prim Banks. I personally lived through the Prim Wars on Kissling and know that when people begin Prim Banking they only are thinking of themselves, and not of their neighbors or the impact it will have on others.

May I suggest that every SIM take up the SLATE approach? Start a Neighborhood Association within your SIM and have everyone join. Then agree to limit PRIMS so everyone in the Association can build and have a nice home. Crissy and I took down our Log Cabin and replaced it with Stone Texture to reduce the PRIM count in Slate and others in Slate did the same. While we may not have the most highly detailed home now, what we do have is a happy community of neighbors who work together.

Second Life should be more then just a game where you come in and drop a house and move on to some other vacant land. Everyone should try and get to know their neighbors and live as neighbors. Start a Community Association and work towards the goal of making everyone content. Buy up the unused Land in your SIM and make a Land Holding group that will share the taxes between everyone. This way, you can let people "buy into" the association on the grounds that they follow the Association rules. We have done this in Slate and have found that everyone is happy to agree to this and if you look at the houses in Slate, you will see they are all of high quality, yet at the same time we don't "PRIM BANK".

Prim Banking is wrong, for so many reasons. It shows a level of self-conceit that I highly regard as offensive. It shows a selfishness that can tear apart a community. It shows a complete disregard for the needs of others.

Amusing :-)

LOL. Yes, buy all the land and refuse to let anyone buy it that won't agree to your rules. Happy happy joy joy! That's only about a thousand times more evil than prim banking.

That is the purpose of a Neighborhood Association, and that purpose has been fulfilled quite nicely in Slate. We don't make any pretense when you ask to buy land in Slate. We don't say, "Oh sure build anything you want" and then come back around and say, "We don't like that, move".

The purpose of the Neighborhood Association is to protect the idea of the theme started by the Neighbors in Slate. We aren't telling anyone they have to live in Slate, but we do say, "If you want to live in our Neighborhood, you must follow certain rules."

If you find this to be unpleasant, I'm sorry. You will find this not only to be unpleasant in SL, but in RL where Neighborhood Associations control things such as what color you can paint your house, to how high a fence can be and what it can be made of.

I find that the Slate Residents showed great fore-sight when they setup this Association to protect the area they love. I'm not saying you have to have restrictions on any Association you setup, but I am saying that because of the Slate Neighborhood Association we have become a tight community and we all agree that we like the outdoor look of our area, and that is what everyone has agreed to live with.

so if you buy land in Slate you have to follow the association's rules?

What if its open land? or is all land in Slate gobbled up by the association and they decide who can buy it?

What do you do if someone doesn't want to follow the association's rules?


**** added portion****

okay this answers some of my questions:
/120/19/7109/1.html

but still seems awfully limiting. How do you decide to remove a resident of Slate. What happens if they leave and don't sell their property back to you?


Anyone in Slate want to sell some land to me w/o going through the association?

Yep, I'm a homeowner in RL too. I'd have to get the associations permission to install a new screen door. It's a giant pain in the ass. Certainly not something I'm willing to deal with in SL.

My point is that it seems hypocritical in the extreme to oppose prim banking when the Slate neighborhood association has effectively banked an entire sim.

The difference between Prim Banking and what we did in Slate is simple.

The Residents of Slate saw the issue of keeping Slate beautiful. We spent OUR money to buy up the land and put it into a Land Holding Group, where voluntary residents are now sharing the tax burden of this land.

We aren't building boxes upon boxes to save prims for our own personal consumption. Instead, as a part of the Neighborhood Association, we all realize that we need to conserve our prim use so everyone who lives in Slate can have a nice home just like we all do.

As for circumventing the Association, that is well within your right, although, I'm not sure why you would care to do this. Unless you wish to live in a neighborhood just to piss people off, but then again, that's another reason we have bought up most of the available land in Slate, so we wouldn't have those kinds of problems.

The whole purpose behind the Slate Neighborhood Association is to preserve Slate to be a beautiful outdoor theme community. We felt strongly about this, and took action to preserve it. How is this any different then if we "bought" our own SIM and set up rules to govern it? Instead of going through the hassle of "buying" our own SIM, we instead just bought up the land in Slate and now live quietly as neighbors.

I don't see anything wrong with what you guys have done Bob, don't get me wrong. I just don't see it as any different than prim banking. You've reserved all the resources in the sim so you can control how they are used. That's exactly what Brianna did with her cubes (just on a much smaller scale since she's not controlling all the resources). There's not really any difference.