Commercializm Poll

Yup which is pretty damn kewl isn't it

I seriously doubt a company like McDonalds would put just a bilboard up in Second Life ;) The cost would be so slight compared to their advertising budget that if they felt they wanted to move into the SL market, they would do it in a BIG way ;)

We would have the McDonalds EXPERIENCE ;p

I agree but we got some ppl in these forums realy pushing for it.

Cat

The first real adertising will probably be by users... And then smaller companies who want to experiment with digital spaces... You will see some interesting content I think from these kinds of places. Promotional items and spaces It might be fun.. Because what good is it if nobody wants to be in your advertising den? Maybe sponsored clubs?


Of course with better build tools, a LOT more could be done.. product demos and displays.. and whatnot

Well after they deal with LL first

It really depends on the state of Second Life at that time, but I don't think Linden Labs would need to be invloved in anything done by these groups unless they are being unethical.

Thank you for your clarification, Diane. I can understand why you would feel marked and treated like a criminal from the get-go with all that fodderal and red tape to go through.

I imagine it is worse now as a result of 9/11. I, for one, am glad they are being more careful about who gets into the country - and keeping track of those who do - due to 9/11. That was very traumatic, in a way that lingers a long time.

However, it may be of some comfort to you to know that you are not alone in being treated this way. All of us here are treated like criminals from the get-go at this point, for example, in airports. Just this March I flew to Texas and almost didn't get there. We arrived at the airport some three hours early, and that still wasn't enough time. What with greater security, meaning we have to walk farther to get INTO the airport, and long lines at every counter because all this security means it is more expensive and there's less manpower, the whole thing is a much worse hassle than it ever was.

And if you don't have ID with your picture and right name on it, you can forget flying.

Then at the point at which my husband had to separate from me, because people not flying can now go no further than certain boundaries - and this must have been at our third checkpoint already! - they decided to pull me out of the process for special inspection so they could make sure nice little lady me wasn't going to blow up the plane. That meant standing in a whole NOTHER line, getting patted down, taking my shoes off, all that stuff - till I finally had to RUN for the plane. I was as cooperative as possible, and didn't say a WORD because by that time, every second counted. The part with the shoe business pretty much tacked on another half hour to the process.

I did not blame the people at the airport. I didn't blame the security people. I didn't blame the airlines. I didn't even blame the political correctness which meant that someone obviously NOT a problem was getting put through all this. I was upset, yes. Nobody likes being patted down and treated like a criminal. But I went through that blaming no one but the terrorists who made it all necessary. The ones who killed us.

So now a simple trip to Austin takes on the proportions of the president on a diplomatic mission to somewhere. Life here has changed for us, and we ALL suffer indignities and wastes of time and having to be identified and all that. By no means is it just people coming in from another country.

I could say that all seems like Nazi Germany, but I know there is nothing else they can do except take those steps, to prevent the deaths of innocents in hideous, unimaginable ways. I hope you will try to keep that in mind in your travels in the future, and I appreciate your explaining your position better to me.

coco

Thanks for the insight coco, and I appreciate your position as an American and how you fell about 9/11 and all that.

Serioulsy however, I think too many people take what CNN tells them for granted. You wont believe me, but for the record if you look it up you will find that there is *no* terrorist threat.

Terrorism including 9/11 was *down* (statistically in terms of number of lives lost and number of dolars lost etc.) in that year, and at an all time low from previous years. Terrorist acts (again as dollar value and lives lost globally), only began to go up again *after* America started it's war on terroirism.

In other words if you do some research you will find that the world is exactly as safe (or not) as it always was. There actually was no big "change" that day, at least from the terrorist point of veiw. The change was that in the "freest" country in the world, HUGE amounts of your personal freedom were taken away from you. They came within a hairsbreadth of completely gutting the constitution for goshs sake.
These rights will not be returned to you.

I hear Americans go on al the time about hoew they are "giving up a bit of freedom" but its for a "good cause". Well the end never justifies the means, and the "good cause" is imaginary, something that has been sold to you on the evening news.

America can go on til it's blue in the face about how "free" they are, but the facts show they are not (not really). You have more rights, more freedom and more open-ness in Europe and especially in Canada than you do in the US period.

If the US wants to compare itself to Communist China or perhaps the old Soviet block countries, then yeah, Wow what a free country it is. Compared to the rest of the "Western world" however the US is practically a police state.

Well, see, the world DID change - for us. It changed in a huge and monumental way, and there is absolutely nothing else for us to do but try to guard against it happening again. When someone comes in and wipes out Toronto or something, you will see Canada become engaged in a huge defensive effort, too.

coco

I know you are but what am i?

Apologies for the insult. It was a visceral reaction to your post.

I "got" your morals, from the fact that you seemed to be saying something along the lines of "some peole cheat and steal and that is interesting/funny and/or possibly beneficial to me so I think its ok as long as they dont get caught"

Admittedly a lot to read in to your small post, but i think it was there.

If so, well... then guttersnipe is actually a *kind* way to put it.

If not well then my mistake, apology above.

1. Robin's announcement didn't say they wouldn't allow RL commerce into SL. It simply said they hadn't been offered yet.
2. Nobody -- least of all me -- has said a thing about me being reimbursed. Or even expecting it.
3. Your exact comment, to which I responded, was:



Sounds for all the world to me as though you'd like to keep RL commerce OUT of SL. I simply don't think that's realistic.


So does Google, AOL, and a thousand other web-driven businesses. Please note that those which survive and thrive have found a business model that generates profit. If SL doesn't do that, it's not going to grow much. And if it doesn't grow much, I seriously question whether it's going to survive long-term.


I cited, verbatim, your words. I'm not attacking you at all. In fact, there is a part of me that actually empathizes with your position. But as I said, I don't think it's too realistic. And, of course, you're equally free to respond and clarify (I'm not the only one who misunderstood you, it seems) without assuming anything about me.


Right. But that's not what I was responding to. The issue I'm reacting to is the introduction of RL commerce into SL. I see some downsides to it (spam for example), but I also see far more upsides for those of us in this community.


Cat, you're conflating. I have no disagreement at all with your stance on copyrighted material. That has nothing to do with my point.


Including me. But I'm also realistic enough to realize that RL commerce will inevitably find its way here. Anshe Chung is a good example of how it's already begun. Anshe may not benefit you or I personally, but her successful business model has already drawn other people here seeking their own virtual fortunes.


That's good to know, Cat, because it sounded to me as though you wanted to resist the encroachment of commerce into SL. I personally don't think there's any point in resisting it -- it's inevitable. And I also think that the outcome can benefit the average SL citizen in many ways. A more vital, robust economy is in everyone's interest. Including yours. But it's not going to happen if SL raises the gates and isolates itself.

I compare the USA to Europe. I spent time in England, I noticed the same security while traveling there.

When I think freedom I'm not talking about the time it takes to go through an airport. I'm talking about the freedom to do as I please when I'm here.

Lets compare Canada to the USA for a second. Canada has free healthcare, to some that's freedom, to me it's slavery to the system. Someone pays for that healthcare, it's not free. If you start a business that can't survive because of the outragous tax rates, is that freedom? This is true through out the so-called free countries within Europe.

Let me tell you what I consider freedom... I can go to work for myself and live well. I keep most of what I earn and an give to the charity of my choice instead of having the government take from me to fund all these welfare programs. I think charities d a better job of helping the needy. Freedom to me means no one is standing in my way to the top of whatever endevor I choose. Freedom means being left alone, I don't want a nanny government holding my hand.

As I see it, the changes we have seen are bringing us closer to how Europe works, more socialism, less freedoms in travel. The cost of gas is higher here now, we are almost as enlighted as England, raise fuel prices to "FORCE" concervation. Soon we will be just like Europe, tiny cars or riding busses. Low pay and high taxes... I can hardly wait... tongue in cheek...

But really, I despise the new "anti-terrorism" laws. I don't support taking freedoms to create security. I'l continue to fight for a return to the constitutional laws we had long ago. But in the mean time, I am happy to live in the freest nation on Earth even with these "Big Brother" laws in place.

Great topics

So where exactly is this "grey area" you mentioned, Cat? If you can't define it, how could you possibly hope to ever enforce it?


Who draws that line, and why is it so dreadful? If my products become a huge success and I incorporate and put my company on the NYSE, does that mean that suddenly you don't want me to continue operating in SL? Is there a dollar limit on this exclusive club you're talking about, or are you simply opposed to free enterprise in general?

I'm not being flip here, and I'm not taking your words out of context. You're basically saying that it's ok to make money in SL and RL as long as it's not too much money? Or is it that whole NYSE thing? Do you honestly want to put arbitrary limits on the SL economy -- and do you know what has historically happened to any economy that was hindered by such arbitrary limitations? If not, I'd be happy to cite a bunch of examples.

As an aside, I find this discussion fascinating. And my questions are not intended to stir flames or cause animosity -- I think they're tough questions that need to be answered clearly and soon. If I sound a little edgy, it's not the coffee I'm simply an unrepentant capitalist.

I started a whole thread about this topic recently and almost no one cared.

LL is too overworked to do anything about it right now.

It will take people who live next to the "Disney teleport" store to complain *directly* to their neighbors or to Linden and until someone cares enough to do that, not much can happen.

Likely it will be the first lawsuit against Linden Labs that raises the issue to a level that anyone notices.

The only concrete solution i can think of is that we vote with our feet (dont buy illegal crap from Disney type stores), and that this could be facilitated by someone keeping a list of places and products that break the law.

Linden Labs cant do this, because creating the list means that you have knowledge of the offense and they could rightly be asked later why they did nothing about it if they knew.

But if some SL resident wants to keep a list somehow of all the places that threaten our future in this way, we could certainly avoid them.

reply to Cindy:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
On 11-14-2003 Robin posted the announcement on;
Change in Digital Ownership Rights

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I don’t see where LL is promising you that you will be reimbursed at any point. I also don’t see where I said that “I feel SL is an isolated virtual world with no relationship whatsoever with reality” please post that quote if it exists. I seriously doubt it does as I have also said that I am a strong supporters of LL forums via HTML in SL.


1. Robin's announcement didn't say they wouldn't allow RL commerce into SL. It simply said they hadn't been offered yet.
2. Nobody -- least of all me -- has said a thing about me being reimbursed. Or even expecting it.
3. Your exact comment, to which I responded, was:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
RL commercialism doesn't belong in SL

SL commercialism of products, services and such does belong in SL.



Sounds for all the world to me as though you'd like to keep RL commerce OUT of SL. I simply don't think that's realistic.

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Ok we can agree to disagree on that. I would like to be very specific and say that I am 100% against big companies such as Nike, Mc Donalds, IBM for example. Posting huge billboards in SL.

Pendari asked me a question yesterday that I have been struggling with for a long time. My opinion on RL commercialism as far as from within SL could change, it would depend on what exactly is being suggested by the players. There are some gray area’s in this discussion. So no I cannot say that I am 100% against all types of commercialism in SL.
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Quote:
I have said that SL is a controlled environment, and it is as it sits on LL owned servers.


So does Google, AOL, and a thousand other web-driven businesses. Please note that those which survive and thrive have found a business model that generates profit. If SL doesn't do that, it's not going to grow much. And if it doesn't grow much, I seriously question whether it's going to survive long-term.

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SL have grown a tremendous amount in the last 2 years, I see that growing trend continuing as it has. Why do you feel that SL will collapse without corporate support?
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Do me a big favor and don’t assume anything about me, but more do not put words in my mouth that are not facts. If you want to know, how I feel ask me a straight question.


I cited, verbatim, your words. I'm not attacking you at all. In fact, there is a part of me that actually empathizes with your position. But as I said, I don't think it's too realistic. And, of course, you're equally free to respond and clarify (I'm not the only one who misunderstood you, it seems) without assuming anything about me.

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Eeek I didn’t say you were attacking me. I’m sorry if you felt this was worded a bit strongly. I just get tired of reading “Cat thinks this, Cat stands for that” Just ask me I’m a very straight forward person. Maybe I am not very realist most libra’s live on white fluffy clouds trying to keep balance in their lives I will be the first to admit I am a dreamer, and it’s SL the perfect place for ppl like me
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Quote:
LL says that you have same ownership rights to your SL creations that you have for any original creations you make in the real world.


Right. But that's not what I was responding to. The issue I'm reacting to is the introduction of RL commerce into SL. I see some downsides to it (spam for example), but I also see far more upsides for those of us in this community.

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Ok I apparently missed your point then. Besides those you have already stated what other upsides do you see?

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Quote:
If you can make money in sl with your sl merchandise that is a great thing. But if you are ripping off textures off the web, claiming them as your own and reselling them then you’re a common thief. If your trying to sell me a rl product hit the door I’m not interested and LL has already stated on 6-12-05 that they are not either.


Cat, you're conflating. I have no disagreement at all with your stance on copyrighted material. That has nothing to do with my point.
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Ok. Sorry if it seems that way. In the forums I have been made to explain in great detail each and every point I have over and over again. After being subjected to that for over 2 years I just tend to cover the gambit now. Yes its been a real pain in the ass hehe.
Thanks for not making me do that with you much appreciated.
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Quote:
I seriously doubt that. SL is the best thing since sliced bread, ppl who have played constricted controlled virtual worlds have been waiting years for something like SL to come along.


Including me. But I'm also realistic enough to realize that RL commerce will inevitably find its way here. Anshe Chung is a good example of how it's already begun.

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True but I know the history of how the powerful got into the position they are now in. I can honestly say in some instances this has not been a good experience for some residents in SL. “It doesn’t matter how many bodies you had to step on to get to the top” comes to mind in this instance.

Regardless it’s a valid example on your part. I agree it has already begun on some levels from within SL. I find the hardest part I am struggling with is commercialism from within SL vs. commercialism from outside sources.

It might seem naive to believe that an imbalance in SL due to commercialism will upset the balance of SL IMO, but it’s how I feel.
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Quote:
Your completely wrong about one thing in particular; I am not against change, I believe when we stop growing and learning we start to die. Think of SL as a child and we are all its parents trying to decide what is right and what is wrong for it. Mom’s not always right and dad’s not always right but they do have a equal say in that growth.


That's good to know, Cat, because it sounded to me as though you wanted to resist the encroachment of commerce into SL. I personally don't think there's any point in resisting it -- it's inevitable. And I also think that the outcome can benefit the average SL citizen in many ways. A more vital, robust economy is in everyone's interest. Including yours. But it's not going to happen if SL raises the gates and isolates itself.
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I’m just one voice It's nice to see ppl speaking up on all issues these days

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
1st the easy one, no I would not expect you to remove your items from sl. After that I would say no one could or probably would stop you from mentioning your rl store in your virtual store.


So where exactly is this "grey area" you mentioned, Cat? If you can't define it, how could you possibly hope to ever enforce it?

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The grey area: I think Pendari hit it. For me at least. What if a SL resident decided to take their work to the real world. Would it be acceptable for them to advertise in SL? Is there a difference between them adding a billboard about their rl accomplishments and Nike for example placing a billboard in SL?

I want to support other residents so this grey area, I really struggle with.
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Quote:
When I say rl commercialism I am talking about the big boys, there is in mind at least a big difference between hearing about your rl clothing line and seeing a mc donalds billboard in sl.

I think we all need to be careful not to cross that big line.


Who draws that line, and why is it so dreadful? If my products become a huge success and I incorporate and put my company on the NYSE, does that mean that suddenly you don't want me to continue operating in SL? Is there a dollar limit on this exclusive club you're talking about, or are you simply opposed to free enterprise in general?

I'm not being flip here, and I'm not taking your words out of context. You're basically saying that it's ok to make money in SL and RL as long as it's not too much money? Or is it that whole NYSE thing? Do you honestly want to put arbitrary limits on the SL economy -- and do you know what has historically happened to any economy that was hindered by such arbitrary limitations? If not, I'd be happy to cite a bunch of examples.

As an aside, I find this discussion fascinating. And my questions are not intended to stir flames or cause animosity -- I think they're tough questions that need to be answered clearly and soon. If I sound a little edgy, it's not the coffee I'm simply an unrepentant capitalist.
__________________
Cin
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That’s exactly what I am struggling with Cin. Honestly I don’t have all the answers. I really wish it was cut and dry but its not. How do we set limits, do we set limits, if we open the flood gates what will happen? If we don’t allow for the residents of SL to prosper how will that affect change in SL. I have more questions than answers. How do you feel about this? How does everyone feel about this?

First Shadow now Pendari have made me think very hard on this subject. That’s right for once I do not have a clear cut opinion on something and I am open to the opinions of others on this subject.

Cat

p.s; BTW I have realy enjoyed discussing this with you, I haven't felt attacked or belittled. Sorry if I seemed on edge, forum history has sucked on trying to just a good conversation Thank you for this, very much appreciated Cin

Each of those started as small businesses, the brainchildren of one or two men. If they'd started out in SL, would you have them kicked out after they reached a certain size? Or is your concern really just the landscape litter of advertising? (A landscape, I'll add, that is already in serious need of zoning and structure. Billboards wouldn't help, but I don't know that they'd make it that much worse.)


Ok. And your objections are fair ones (mostly)-- I'm simply trying to figure out where the gray areas are and how to un-gray them for both of us.


Not so much corporate support. I see the SL model as one that is beginning to prove itself (thus the growth) largely because of LL's decision regarding trademark and intellectual property. Once they did that, they removed the biggest obstacle to real businesses investing in a virtual construct. Businesses certainly could never entertain the idea in World of Warcraft. But note that not all businesses are corporations, or even 'big' corporations. And FYI, major corporations in the U.S. pay billions in federal taxes (not enough by some accounts, but still substantial) -- that money is available to go for public works and programs, provided Congress doesn't squander it.


I know what you mean about having to continually define your position -- I hate it when it happens to me, so I try hard not to do it to others. I'm not always successful, but I do try.



Anarchy Online has gone to free subscriptions and in-game advertising, and frankly all I saw was a few unintrustive billboards and a FREE account for me. I'd say free accounts were an upside for the user. Yes, you can already get a free account in SL, but the point is that alternate revenue streams also improve quality of service for the rest of us -- it makes it easier for the 'government' (game company) to expand and improve the product.

What if Nike or Macy's or a Las Vegas casino opened venues in SL and hired SLers to work in their virtual stores? As difficult as it is right now for new SLers to find income, I'd say that would be a major plus for all of us, no?


I'd always hesitate to brand an entire group with the actions of a few. And corruption is going to occur no matter what the model. It's part of human nature.

I'm actually not expecting LL to do anything other than perhaps be clear in their policies.

It now appears to me that the canned response ("file a report" given in general cases of intellectual property theft is both misleading and evasive; and i find this distasteful tbh. As i currently understand the relevant ToS guideline and Robin Linden's responses to my queries regarding it, content creators currently have no recourse regarding the illegal use of Copyrighted material by another resident - UNLESS they are the owner of the copyright or the legal representative of the owner of that copyright. In other words, you can't just file a report. Further, as i understand her, the only time someone can officially report the theft of intellectual property that they neither own nor represent, is in the case of Trademark infringement. At this time the relevant ToS appears to me to discourage reporting even this infringement by not, as far as i can tell, making this distinction.

I am currently awaiting a response for the case of intellectual property that is both Copyrighted and Trademarked, as i have no idea how that situation fits into the ToS guideline i've been questioning. It's important because many RL creations (Disney/Marvel/film characters, etc) are both copyrighted and trademarked. The instruction in the ToS appears to me to require a legal statement be made by the person submitting the report - but that statement presumes the infraction to be a Copyright violation and not a Trademark violation.

This all relates back to commercialism mainly in that I'd like to see residents have more control over the flow of RL commercialism into SL. IMO this illegal activity impacts the SL economy by bringing RW content in to compete with home-grown content. And since LL is now on record as wanting to promote content creation, this subject seems appropriate since their policies seem to me to inhibit original content creation. And apparently i'm not the only one seeing what appears to be a disconnect. ( /invalid_link.html ).

Reply to Cin
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
Ok we can agree to disagree on that. I would like to be very specific and say that I am 100% against big companies such as Nike, Mc Donalds, IBM for example. Posting huge billboards in SL.


Each of those started as small businesses, the brainchildren of one or two men. If they'd started out in SL, would you have them kicked out after they reached a certain size? Or is your concern really just the landscape litter of advertising? (A landscape, I'll add, that is already in serious need of zoning and structure. Billboards wouldn't help, but I don't know that they'd make it that much worse.)
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Yup littering the landscape is defiantly a concern. When I hear ppl say that there will no longer be a need for a store; when a simple 10x1x10 prim with their web site displayed on it with the contents of their store on it will do. You bet I start to get concerned. Their argument for this is; Less prims, less lag. So will we see a bunch of boards were shops and malls used to be? Yup that is defiantly a concern.

Do we make a distinction between small business and big business in SL? I honestly don’t know. I certainly wish I did.
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Quote:
Pendari asked me a question yesterday that I have been struggling with for a long time. My opinion on RL commercialism as far as from within SL could change, it would depend on what exactly is being suggested by the players. There are some gray area’s in this discussion. So no I cannot say that I am 100% against all types of commercialism in SL.


Ok. And your objections are fair ones (mostly)-- I'm simply trying to figure out where the gray areas are and how to un-gray them for both of us.

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Simply is there a distinction from sl residents commercialism, and outside commercialism.
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Quote:
SL have grown a tremendous amount in the last 2 years, I see that growing trend continuing as it has. Why do you feel that SL will collapse without corporate support?


Not so much corporate support. I see the SL model as one that is beginning to prove itself (thus the growth) largely because of LL's decision regarding trademark and intellectual property. Once they did that, they removed the biggest obstacle to real businesses investing in a virtual construct. Businesses certainly could never entertain the idea in World of Warcraft. But note that not all businesses are corporations, or even 'big' corporations. And FYI, major corporations in the U.S. pay billions in federal taxes (not enough by some accounts, but still substantial) -- that money is available to go for public works and programs, provided Congress doesn't squander it.
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Interesting point.
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Quote:
Eeek I didn’t say you were attacking me. I’m sorry if you felt this was worded a bit strongly. I just get tired of reading “Cat thinks this, Cat stands for that” Just ask me I’m a very straight forward person. Maybe I am not very realist most libra’s live on white fluffy clouds trying to keep balance in their lives I will be the first to admit I am a dreamer, and it’s SL the perfect place for ppl like me


I know what you mean about having to continually define your position -- I hate it when it happens to me, so I try hard not to do it to others. I'm not always successful, but I do try.
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Nods
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Quote:
Ok I apparently missed your point then. Besides those you have already stated what other upsides do you see?



Anarchy Online has gone to free subscriptions and in-game advertising, and frankly all I saw was a few unintrustive billboards and a FREE account for me. I'd say free accounts were an upside for the user. Yes, you can already get a free account in SL, but the point is that alternate revenue streams also improve quality of service for the rest of us -- it makes it easier for the 'government' (game company) to expand and improve the product.

What if Nike or Macy's or a Las Vegas casino opened venues in SL and hired SLers to work in their virtual stores? As difficult as it is right now for new SLers to find income, I'd say that would be a major plus for all of us, no?
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I see your point there.
Ok billboards paying for subscriptions, I honestly see that as a plus for players and not a bad thing. That’s fine for those who want to play for free but as SL sits right now ppl like me own islands, how would we be affected by that? We would still be paying a fee for the excess land, yet we would be subjected to billboards. See how that seems unfair?

Honestly no I had not thought of rl companies supplying rl jobs for sl residents, good point there.
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Quote:
True but I know the history of how the powerful got into the position they are now in. I can honestly say in some instances this has not been a good experience for some residents in SL. “It doesn’t matter how many bodies you had to step on to get to the top” comes to mind in this instance.


I'd always hesitate to brand an entire group with the actions of a few. And corruption is going to occur no matter what the model. It's part of human nature.
__________________
Cin

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Cat

Well said and I agree with you.

Cat

Heh, advertisements for Photoshop? Poser?

Since i already own both I don't need those advertizement

Yes. Most infringement i have heard of is trademark violation even if it is aslo sometimes copyright violation. So a clear way to report trademark infringement is really important to have.


This was one of my main points also. If I am selling teleporters, and someone next door is selling "Kermit the Frog" teleporters, they have an unfair business advantage AFAICS, and this definately works *against* original content creation.

I have seen two cases (this without really looking) quite recently that are clear cut violations. One was a product line containing 10 or 12 items, the second was an entire store. If I knew that there was a process in place and that Linden would act on a complaint, i would have turned these folks in already (after a warning).

I dont think so Coco.

Different peoples react in different ways.
Canada has never invaded or attacked anyone, and has virtualy no military to speak of at this point.

There is no way that Canadians would buy into attacking some other country and killing a lot of innocents cause of a bomb that went off in TO or anywhere else IMO.

The most likely reaction, (and posibly the most appropriate) is sadness.

The most sucessful strategy to ensure such thing dont hapen again, is actually turning the other cheek and perhaps even *talking* to the terrorists. Trying to understand them and *why* they hate the US do much would do far more than bombs in terms of increasing your security, and it would not infringe apon your freedom.

If you check your history books you will find that this is the only thing that has ever actually worked in the past in such situations. Attacking them back is the worst thing to do and generally (historically) has caused the kinds of things we see today. A giant step backwards for the freedom of the individuals who were attacked, and and *increased* level of attacks.

What the US is doing does not work and has never worked.

Similar to the "war on drugs" actually, but that is off-topic.

Canada has no need for a military, we protect them completely, along with all the European nations that belong to NATO. We supply 90% of the World's security. It's no wonder everyone of the terrorist nations hate us, we are the police that protects every other nation, so Canada gets to spend nearly all their GNP on growth, not defense.

I wish the USA could let some other country take over the expense of world security.

Canada will never need a big military as long as the USA is here.