Commercializm Poll

What about "power to the ppl" from sl first? I have not only suggested a committee hell i already volunteered myself for it

Is LL really hoping that they are the next web. Those are some pretty damn big shoes to fill. So when we all being put on the payroll as their 3D webmasters?

I thought they wanted to be the Metaverse, I did not get this memo! I don't care if it becomes completely commercial #1 I wont be paying a damn dime to play it. #2 Its their bankruptcy.

TSO and Mc Donald’s and yes we know how well TSO is doing, snooze ...game over. That game has been dead for well over a year now. If I remember correctly the fries filled the hunger need more than the big mac rofl. Silly shits they are.

Thanks much; I feel a bit better about that mistake

Sure, you can copyright the logo. It falls under the "artistic" category of copyrights. You have pay 20 bucks and and file an application - at least that's the way it was when I created my RL business, and since 1976, if memory serves. Trademarking costs more than the copyrighting, and protects the logo I made and use, to the extent of my needs.

So we don't get too far off track here:

1. The purpose of a copyright is to protect works of authorship as fixed in a tangible form of expression. Thus, copyright covers: a) works of art (2 or 3 dimensional), b) photos, pictures, graphic designs, drawings and other forms of images; c) songs, music and sound recordings of all kinds; d) books, manuscripts, publications and other written works; and e) plays, movies, shows, and other performance arts.

2. The purpose of a trademark is to protect words, phrases and logos used in federally regulated commerce to identify the source of goods and/or services.

3. There may be occasions when both copyright and trademark protection are desired with respect to the same business endeavor. For example, a marketing campaign for a new product may introduce a new slogan for use with the product, which also appears in advertisements for the product. However, copyright and trademark protection will cover different things. The advertisement's text and graphics, as published in a particular vehicle, will be covered by copyright - but this will not protect the slogan as such. The slogan may be protected by trademark law, but this will not cover the rest of the advertisement. If you want both forms of protection, you will have to perform both types of registration.

4. If you are interested in protecting a title, slogan, or other short word phrase, generally you want a trademark. Copyright law does not protect a bare phrase, slogan, or trade name.

5. Whether an image should be protected by trademark or copyright law depends on whether its use is intended to identify the source of goods or services. If an image is used temporarily in an ad campaign, it generally is not the type of thing intended to be protected as a logo.

6. The registration processes of copyright and trademark are entirely different. For copyright, the filing fee is small, the time to obtain registration is relatively short, and examination by the Copyright Office is limited to ensuring that the registration application is properly completed and suitable copies are attached. For trademark, the filing fee is more substantial, the time to obtain registration is much longer, and examination by the Trademark Office includes a substantive review of potentially conflicting marks which are found to be confusingly similar. While copyright registration is primarily an administrative process, trademark registration is very much an adversarial process.

7. Copyright law provides for compulsory licensing and royalty payments - there is no analogous concept in trademark law. Plus, the tests and definition of infringement are considerably different under copyright law and trademark law.

source:http://www.lawmart.com/searches/difference.htm

Wow great information that makes it crystal clear now.

Yes, LL employees have stated as much. It's not in a memo, it's alluded to in papers written by Cory and Philip, and has also come up in Forum and in-world conversations where Lindens have offered a bit of insight.

I guess for me, the message I am getting is that the "Metaverse" is the "3dweb". Others may interpret that differently, and I am open to critique and further dialogue on that topic.

I am not going to say they will take over the "2d net". Only time will tell, and lets face it, that's a big task, if not impossible or impractical. However, I do see them positioning themselves to at least become a 3d extension of the 2d web. This latest announcement of the 2d web being blended into SL, is certainly is a step in that direction.

Not to mention, they got that 8 mil from a guy whose whole business is centered around commercialism, i.e, Ebay. Why do you think he is interested in SL?

You can swim upstream, just beware that the amount of log traffic coming downstream is ever increasing. That's not a slam, just a statement about the contrast between your vision for SL, and where I see LL going with SL.

Last thing, yes, I know about TSO's shortcomings, believe me. However, I don't think that is because, or not because of McDonald's - I think it's the result of a bad economic plan, broken money games that were exploited to no end, the notion of paying people to attend one's events, etc. If anything, McDonalds, provided a money sink for the economy, but it was probably too little, too late.

Naw Nolan when I was a kid riding a Ferris wheel I learned a very important lesson in life. If the ride starts to make you sick to your stomach, you just get off the ride and save your money for a new toy

I have an island, I enjoy my part of sl very much . I'm just not too crazy about leaving it much these days

As for the log jam, shit storm what ever I have experienced that from the day I said "hey this commercialism stuff sucks in my game" I keep hoping others will be more vocal about their feelings of sl as a game a place to build and create, their metaverse. Guess if they don't then in a way we all lose. In my mind, anyways.

LOL no Mc Donalds wasn't the end of TSO but it sure as hell didn't help. What happened to "There" however is a better analogy of the current state of affairs.

Ebay yes we know my opinions of ebay in sl. What happened with ebay being integrated into sl? It went over like a lead balloon.

I remember long ago Philip saying there would always be balance in SL. Don't mind me while I grasp onto that for dear life If he lied well he made a shit load of money off of me in the process For the most part it was worth the cash

You think we completly disagree on what the metaverse is, when in fact I think there is room for many different perceptions of what a metaverse is. I do however believe that if that balance is upset it should be addressed and dealt with. Have you ever heard anyone say there are just way too many beautiful builds? No, and there is a damn good reason for that. The balance is no longer here as far as I see it.

Cat

As far as I can tell, you haven't gotten off the ride.

Nor I, and this sort of contradicts what you said above, unless you mean that by getting your island, you got "off the ride". Although, by your posts and threads here, I am not sure that I can buy that.

You are either misunderstanding what I meant, or else twisting it to make a point about the reactions you receive when you beat on hornet's nests. I mean that LL's vision is the river, ever broadening, with ever more traffic. If you want to swim upstream, i.e., fight commercialism tooth and nail, don't be suprised if you get conked in the head a few times by logs.

I suppose some folks left because they were upset about it, but as far as any effect on the economy, the economy was already floundering hopelessly.

That chapter is not closed yet. Especially with the advent of web access directly from SL.

Sure, balance. Balance, in part, requires acceptance of different mindsets than your own. I am all for that. Ranting about things you don't like is not acceptance of other viewpoints, nor does it aid "balance".

DO I make a living off of SL? No? Would I like to? Probably. Do I think it's possible for me to do that, I don't know, and I won't throw all my eggs in once basket. But I certainly would not mind being able to work 100% from home, in an incredible environment like SL. If that offends those who only want it to be a game, c'est la vie. I think it can be both.

I never stated we disagree about what the metaverse is. Although I do disagree that any "balance" has been upset.

The main gist of most of my debates with people here is that many try to project their vision onto others, mainly by inventing and labeling groups. I have argued for precisely what you have stated above, "I think there is room for many different perceptions", and this is why I reject the notion of large groups and class divisions within SL, because simply put, every single SLer "plays" SL differently, and is here for different reasons. Not to mention, we all have the same exact resources at our fingertips. If one does not use the resources the same way someone else does, that is not a crime.

But these examples represent a completely different form of advertising. For the record, I feel SL is becoming too commercialized for what its (SL) worth. And suggesting there is too much commercialism in SL, is not an anti-capitalistic suggestion. This is about commercialism, not capitalism - two different isms.

Yes, you pay for TV and Magazines (media) and you get ads. However those ads primarily offset the enormous costs involved in producing the content. I accept this type of advertisement because it lessens the amount I'm charged. Broadcast television is free, many trade magazines are free, and most ad-supported websites are free - advertisers pick up the tab, no need for subscription fees.

AOL made the mistake of becoming too commercialized for what it was worth. I cancelled my account 5 years ago. If SL becomes as unbalanced as I felt AOL had become, I'll cancel my SL subscription. I think this will happen once LL allows inworld advertisements for real world products. And once it happens, I'll be walking towards the door and onto the next "Big Thing." The bottom lines for me:

Commercialism in SL does nothing for SL/Linden Lab. Since Linden Lab sees no benefit, I see no benefit. Since I see no benefit, I would prefer not to see it.

How do you figure?

The current form of commercialism draws people here, which benefits LL in income. I dont think it can be denied that the vast wealth of things to do (A lot of which are commercial in some way or another) are one of the big drawing points to SL.

A future hypothetical form of commercialm (As we begin to see with the ebay ads, but only barely) could provide a very valueable source of income for LL, which... well. That's good.

Linden Lab sees financial benefit from high tier fees and the income from land auctions and the sale of private islands. All these things have flourished because of commercialism. As my business has expanded in SL, I have tiered up and gotten more land - that directly benefits LL financially The same is true for the auctions.

I think advertising is very minimal in SL - we are hardly bombarded by it. While I do think builds set up just to be pure advertisisng for an external company would be extremely lame, it is not something we have seen - all though there were all kinds of gloom and doom predictions about that. The advertising we do see is to help other SL businesses, and that is a good thing.

Commercialism also helps to pay for more philanthrophic pursuits in SL as well. Something has to pay land tier fies, and when an enterprise is self sustaining, it is much more likely to help others and be generous. On a small scale, the money trees are an example of that - on a larger scale, the hosting of projects on private islands and free services being offered to SL are examples of that. It mirrors RL - commercial sponsors are often huge donors to the arts and educational programs. These things benefit SL as well.

The feeling i get from this thread is someone wants people to stop using Disney etc to promote their good because it is hard to compete with Disney products when the shirt you sell has a picture of butterfly instead of Mickey.

I understand the frustration that might cause. Unfortunately, this is what happens in the real World as well. The best you can do is try to make things even more exciting, or you can steal an idea and take the risks involved. That's what RL business does everyday, either stay honest and struggle or be crooked too to keep up.

You might complain and get them to stop, but there is another guy waiting to take their place. It's like drug dealers, get one locked up and another will pop up to take his place. As long as there is a market people will break rules to fill that need.

in RL, someone competing in a neighborhood with a rip off artist has a viable means to shut that unfair competition down. in SL, there is no equivalent option. if the LL ToS applied to this RL street vendor, they'd have to own the Disney ip or be a registered agent in order to report the con artist's activities to the authorities. the only option would be to go straight to Disney. and in RL that's an option. Disney can't sue God and bring the world to a halt. i can't say that wouldn't happen to Second Life.

so in fact, this is not quite what happens in the real world. leveling the playing field is all i'm suggesting. the bonus is removing the advertising inherent in this kind of intellectual property theft.

but this isn't rl this is a controlled enviroment

I agree with you. I would do the same.

Hugz

Cat

It's a good thing you're not making the decisions then.

Cristiano and Nolan are on my mute/ignore list and will no longer be granted the dignity of an answer.

In RL people set up shop on the sidewalk in front of stores. They have no overhead, pay no taxes, sell designer name goods at a fraction of the cost. The shop owners complain, the cops chase off the illegal vendor till later, or somewhere else. These are realities of doing real business. Some people play by the rules, others bend the rules to suit their need. Complaining is fine, I'm not saying you should or shouldn't complain. It's your right to protest, and I support your rights.

That said, I don't think you are losing business to people who make Mickey shirts. If you make nice non-Disney clothes they will sell also. The system isn't a closed system, where if I get something no one else can have it. Money isn't really limited in SL. People can't depend on Stipend cash to start out. Most people would rather buy $20 or $30 in lindens. So if they like your shirts they will buy them. I know I bought what I liked, I wasn't making a choice, a Mickey shirt or a Butterfly shirt. I bought both if I liked them both.

Warner Bros. Serves Notice On "Acme Page"

Here is the letter that was sent from Warner Bros. If we are to treat LL as www.3d.com as some are suggesting then we cannot over look the rules and laws set in place; that also apply to the www. Selling someone's tradmark, copy write; t is not bending the rules its breaking the law.

Cat


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Warner Bros.
4000 Warner Boulevard
Burbank, California 91522
(81 954-7494
Fax: (81 954-4501

VIA HAND DELIVERY

Nils Victor Montan
Vice President
Senior Intellectual Property Counsel

November 8, 1995

Mr. Jonathon Woodward [sic]
FTP Software
2 High Street
North Andover, Massachusetts 01848

Dear Mr. Woodward:

As you know, Warner Bros., a division of Time Warner Entertainment
Company, L.P., is the owner of all copyright, trademark and other
intellectual property rights in and to the world famous LOONEY TUNES, TINY
TOONS and ANIMANIACS animated cartoon characters (collectively the "WB
Characters". The WB Characters, including such beloved characters as BUGS
BUNNY, DAFFY DUCK, and TWEETY, among others, have entertained families and
children for generations, and Warner Bros. rightfully takes its
responsibility for the protection of the WB Characters very seriously.

Warner Bros. has recently learned of your home page on the worldwide web
called "The Acme Page" (http://www.io.com/~woodward/acme.html), which as you
know, contains numerous unauthorized copies and erivative copies of the WB
Characters, including so-called "fan art," and depictions of the WB
Characters engaged in acts of sex of a blatantly pornographic nature,
unauthorized transcripts of dialogue from Warner Bros. cartoons, original
unauthorized stories featuring WB Characters, and unauthorized copies of
copyrighted works belonging to Warner Bros. and others. again, many of the
original stories are floridly pornographic in character and tone.

You are hereby put on notice that the unauthorized creation,
reproduction performance, display or transmission by you of such depictions
of the WB Characters, transcripts, and stories constitutes acts of copyright
infringement, trademark infringement, trademark dilution, unfair competition
and disparagement, and potentially subjects you to both criminal and civil
sanctions.

In light of these infringements of its rights, Warner Bros. hereby
_demands_ that you, and all those who have acted in concert with you,
immediately cease any copying, transmission or other utilization of any of
its protected intellectual property, including, but not limited to: (1)
_any_ use of the WB Characters, or trademarks (in pornographic depictions or
otherwise), (2) the transmission of any unauthorized transcripts of dialogue
from Warner Bros. cartoons, and (3) the transmission of original
unauthorized stories featuring WB Characters.

We further demand that you delete from your worldwide web home page or
any other sites operated or controlled by you (including any local,
regional, national or international bulletin boards) all of the aforesaid
intellectual property belonging to Warner Bros., and engage in no further
uploading of any such infringing material to any other site. Should you not
agree to do so, Warner Bros. expressly reserves all of its rights to file a
lawsuit against you to obtain both money damages for all past acts of
infringement and an injunction to prevent any future infringement and/or to
refer this matter to the appropriate public authorities.

We expect that you will confirm to us in a letter that you have complied
with all of the above demands.

This letter is not a complete statement of Warner Bros.' rights in
connection with ths matter, and nothing contained herein constitues an
express or implied waiver of any rights, remedies or defenses of Warner
Bros. in connection with these matters, all of which are expressly reserved.

Very truly yours,
Nils Victor Montan

NVM/jmp

cc: Illuminate on Line [sic]
2880 South Interstate 35
Suite 220
Austin, Texas 78704-5700


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We never have been granted the dignity of an answer anyway, so hallelujah! It will be no different since you never respond to what you are actually asked anyway. At least there will be less profanity.

People break laws every single day. I wouldn't get upset over it. Not only are they making money, but they are upsetting you in the process. You lose twice. they win. Contact Disney or whatever you think will work, but don't let it get to you. After all, this is supposed to be fun

but do you support our right to notify LL of these violations... hopefully before something worse happens? as of now, it appears we've been muted.

what is the "Acme" page? getting a 404. is it SL "Disney" content (i've seen a couple Disney vendors in SL, but don't know who they are). or is this something else? maybe TSO?

agree with Kevn tho. getting worked up isn't worth it. i once went into a Chinese manufacturer's facility scouting for an overseas toolmaker (aka "moldmaker" - for injection molding plastic products) only to see one of our products being dissected and replicated at the behest of a large US retailer.... patents be damned. after that this stuff pales in comparison; as does someone setting up shop on a streetcorner.

(edit: sorry. didn't notice the date on the Cease and Desist. old news.)

You found this in the "Gracious Manners to Start a Poll" book, didn't you?

Kevin I'm not upset, I am concerned ok.

I think if we stop ppl from selling trademarked or copy writen materials within SL it would be to all of our advantages. Its illegal to do what they are doing. Yes of course I could contact each and every company in question and I am sure they would come down on LL like a ton of bricks in the process. I don't see how that stops these tradmarked or copy written materials from getting into SL. The best way IMO is to stop the flow at the source. If things that are tradmarked or copy written are removed from SL via a committee of sl players or other means. I think it would tell ppl, "hey don't waste your time making this stuff, because it will be removed.

I think that not only protects the trademark/copy write it also helps protect LL. I love this virtual world I wish to make it nicer not possible cripple it. What are the parts of commercialism I hate about SL. Seeing RL Logo's/Product placement invade SL. Its one thing to fight pepsico. its another to tell some resident to make their own logo's and not ripe off existing trademarks illegaly.

Who ever is suggesting that ppl who agree with me look the other way;

To tell me to just look the other way, that doesn't wash with me. I never look the other way when I see a crime being committed in rl.

Cat

Its a page I found in a simple search this morning. There were many such pages, apparently big companies are addressing such matters very seriously.

Cat