Commercializm Poll

Heh sorry I removed that because it was a little bigger than I thought ;0


You said you saw no value in HTML on a prim face... Well there is value to the HTML or even fetching it from a webserver that can process data and create an ever changing display...

Some people will use that for advertising... Others will use it to create new and wonderful things for SL ;0

I apologize for not being clear enough for you, let me try again :

I see no value in putting rl merchandise via html on a prim. RL Merchandise that has nothing to do with SL what so ever.

Ah, ok ! I understand


The value is money! Money flowing into this technology will drive it forward! It will be made easier to use just as is the trend with everything technological these days.. Becase making it easier widens your audience.. More people is more money.. More people and more money is more development.. More development is good because it will bring more people by broadening the market.. More people is more more money!..


Think of what the GUI interface did for computers in 1984 the Macintosh... What would most people do without a Windows Start button ?? So, money brings in people who will develop for this technology.. driving up the ease of use.. Ease of use brings in more people... more people brings in more developmnt.. ;0 That's how I see it..


More peope, more development, more money, easier to use, faster better stronger

How will putting html on a prim from within sl bring more ppl in? I could understand your reasoning if you were talking about putting SL on more webs however

I don't sell anything. i'm just a conduit. but that isn't obvious. i could be selling this RL item myself.

can i assume that your gameplay has been unaffected by my activity? you certainly seem unaware of my activities. surely that's not possible.

The first quality I brought up was more money(via advertising) bringing more developers(seeking money?), but I think you're right that we need more PEOPLE first, because the market really is kinda small... I think if/when we hit 75k+ users then it will be a little more viable...

Even so, SL is mentioned in the news in relation to people like Anshe Chung making 100k, and all the other startups in world who are making real money and not just camping the rares but selling real and tangable goods or services(real enough to some people)

i disagree. so long as SL mimics the real world, RL merchandise has quite a bit to do with SL. i've seen furniture for sale (why "sit" in a virtual world?), i've seen planes for sale (of what use is a plane in a virtual world?), i've seen SL versions of Apple computers for sale (for what purpose if they're not real computers?), i've seen jewelry on av's (why adorn an av in a virtual world?).

i'd suggest people rethink their concepts of advertising in a virtual world. much of what's being done mimics RL. that need not be the case. rather than a "push" world, SL could be a "pull" world.

Wow, why anti_American flag? To most Americans it stands as the symbol of freedom. No other country draws more people seeking freedom. Sure, we have had bad leaders, I won't mention names. But this country has endured through it all.

To compare the American flag to the Nazi symbols is absolutely amazing.

If you hate Bush, wait a few years and he will be gone. But don't condemn the American flag and the freedom it stands for based on a few bad leaders.

This is too long a discussion and too off-topic to get into.

But briefly I would say that you are 100% wrong on all the points you mentioned. I would find it hard to explain myself to someone who actually believes that kind of propoganda however.

Merely saying over and over that America is the land of the free etc. does not make it so. I find the facts to be different and history will judge, and IMO not favourably. It seems unlikely that I would convince you of that however.

And the very fact that as a symbol, the US flag *used* to stand for so many good things, is what gives power and emphasis to the opposite way in which it is currently (20th century) percieved by many.

I mean the irony is very deep indeed.
All that rhetoric about freedom, yet no actual freedom.

Besides any place that searches you at the border and tracks your movements while you are there is no place i want to ever visit.

I guess if you are carrying that information in secret no one would know about it, therefor no one would be affected by it.

"I mean the irony is very deep indeed.
All that rhetoric about freedom, yet no actual freedom."

As opposed to, um, where?

You said earlier, I believe, that you were an immigrant to the U.S. And yet you say it is not a place you want to visit?

Merely saying over and over that America is NOT the land of the free, etc., does not make that so.

coco

sigh

apparently I again am not being excessively clear about my stance on this.

"the selling of rl merchandise from within sl IMO has nothing to do with SL. I play SL to escape RL. If this was RL they should of named it RealLife.com.

To mimic rl is one thing to try to sell me rl jewelry is a different matter entirely.

it's not by any means a secret. in fact it was reported on the radio in RL (the CBC). you're using an example of someone having a link to his RL business at his SL residence as a terrible thing. that's no different than what i'm doing. all i'm suggesting is that it is not by default a bad thing.



do you go to SL clubs? and if you do exactly where does the music being played originate? i'm unaware of any SL-only bands. and all i hear are mp3's of RW music.

do you see any textures when you log into SL? if you do, where exactly do those textures come from? are they created by graphics tools within SL? not that i'm aware of. are there no scanned images of rocks, grass, dirt, etc? not that i'm aware of. in fact most everything i see looks like a scan of something in RL.

imo, SL is already FULL of RL stuff. it even looks like RL. wouldn't you be happier in a simulation that had absolutely no links to the real world in order to truly escape? maybe something that looked like this (link to "3D Matrix Screensaver" screenshot"

Actually, I think Chip is right on this score. While I do support the Copyright laws, the big companies will start the chin stroking and ponder a way to work their stuff into the game. Easiest way is to simply offer the Lindens more money than they could sanely refuse. If you've ever played on Neopets, take a look at them now... I left because the big companies became FAR more important to the TNT than the players, and that was a FREE game.
I mean, do we really want a Super-Walmart in SL? Or a McDonald's? It will PUT all us little artists and creators out of business! I'll pack my bags again if some major chain sets up shop in SL, because I'm paying for this game in the hopes of getting my meager artwork noticed, not to compete with some big company who can afford the L$ to buy us all out.
There has to be some sort of balance that can be reached, but we should be the ones to do it, not the companies. Simply not buying the products is usually the best way to do it.

This was your post on the subject; the word “conduit” means:

con·duit [kón d it, kóndwit]
(plural con·duits)
n
1. utilities channel for liquid: a pipe or channel that carries liquid to or from a place
2. construction protective cover for cable: a pipe or tube that covers and protects electrical cables
3. conveyer of information: somebody or something that conveys information, especially if in secret


[14th century. Via French conduit from, ultimately, Latin conduct- , stem of conducere , literally “to lead with” (source of English conduct).]
Encarta ® World English Dictionary ©
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Originally Posted by Csven Concord
I don't sell anything. i'm just a conduit. but that isn't obvious. i could be selling this RL item myself.

can i assume that your gameplay has been unaffected by my activity? you certainly seem unaware of my activities. surely that's not possible.

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Which is why I made this post:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
I guess if you are carrying that information in secret no one would know about it, therefor no one would be affected by it.

=============================================================
Your reply was:
Quote: Csven Concord
it's not by any means a secret. in fact it was reported on the radio in RL (the CBC). you're using an example of someone having a link to his RL business at his SL residence as a terrible thing. that's no different than what i'm doing. all i'm suggesting is that it is not by default a bad thing.

============================================================
I hope you can see the confusion here.

What is “it” that was reported by the CBC in RL?
There is nothing wrong with news services reporting about things in SL.

=============================================
Quote:
Originally Posted by Catherine Cotton
I play SL to escape RL. If this was RL they should of named it RealLife.com.


Quote: Csven Concord
do you go to SL clubs? and if you do exactly where does the music being played originate? i'm unaware of any SL-only bands. and all i hear are mp3's of RW music.

do you see any textures when you log into SL? if you do, where exactly do those textures come from? are they created by graphics tools within SL? not that i'm aware of. are there no scanned images of rocks, grass, dirt, etc? not that i'm aware of. in fact most everything i see looks like a scan of something in RL.

imo, SL is already FULL of RL stuff. it even looks like RL. wouldn't you be happier in a simulation that had absolutely no links to the real world in order to truly escape? maybe something that looked like this (link to "3D Matrix Screensaver" screenshot"

=======================================================
I have no problem with steaming music, except as I have stated before when they run RL commercials in them, yes that bugs me. It takes me out of my virtual space.

The textures in SL? Well in my case they come from my hard drive as I made them in a graphic program.

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I have no problem with stuff looking like it came from RL. There is a huge difference between selling me a simulation of a broyhill sofa that I can use in SL and a real broyhill sofa.

Cat

Absolutly agree.

1) my dictionary does not associate the word "conduit" with "secret"; therefore i did not see the connection. perhaps next time you would be so kind as to provide a definition along with your comment so that i might better understand those comments which reference your dictionary. thank you.

2) "What is “it” that was reported by the CBC in RL?" - if i answered that question, i'd be advertising a RL product. i see no need to do that here (and would expect some would find that kind of subtle advertising offensive). i'd provide a link to the archived radio show; however it both includes my RL name which i'm also not interested in broadcasting (though i don't keep it a secret either). plus the comments on the show are not entirely accurate - i don't develop products for the retailer mentioned... they're just one place to buy.

3) "There is nothing wrong with news services reporting about things in SL." i wasn't aware someone said there was something wrong.

4) "I have no problem with steaming music, except as I have stated before when they run RL commercials in them, yes that bugs me. It takes me out of my virtual space." - perhaps RL music takes some other ppl out of their virtual space. and perhaps RL commercials do not take others out of their virtual space. who will decide what is intrusive and what is not? should SL form some kind of draconian government to enforce the will of some over the will of others? if left to me, i'd remove ALL elements of the RW. who decides?

5) "The textures in SL? Well in my case they come from my hard drive as I made them in a graphic program." - are you saying you see no other textures in SL other than those created by your RL graphics program? i was unaware we had the ability to turn off all the other textures in SL. please tell me how i can do this. thank you.

6) "I have no problem with stuff looking like it came from RL. There is a huge difference between selling me a simulation of a broyhill sofa that I can use in SL and a real broyhill sofa." - now i'm confused. i thought you said you wanted to "play SL to escape RL". forgive me for being confused that on the one hand you wish to "escape" RL, yet on the other you are comfortable surrounding yourself with RL name brands and simulated objects. perhaps you might include your dictionary's definition of "escape", because we doubtlessly have different meanings for the word. thank you.

I do have a problem with rl "brands" being shown in sl. To be honest if someone modeled a sofa after a broyhill sofa the only way I would know it was a broyhill if if I knew what a broyhill looked like. PPL dont usualy put a sales tag with the word broyhill on sofas that look like broyhill. I used it as an example as I happen to know that brand. For no other reason. Now if I was to see a sign that said "this is a broyhill sofa" no I wouldn't buy that sofa. So yes I do have a problem with being surrounded by brands used in your context.

I don't know what your selling and I would come in world and check it out if I wasn't on vacation. If your selling a rl product I think your wrong. If your using your streaming media in world to push a rl product again I think your wrong. I leave clubs that have rl commercials, I can listen to them in rl.

I wonder, if it's so bad, why did you come here, as did so many millions? Why are the lines full to get in?

I'm not blind to the realities of how our constitution has been misinturpreted in the recent past. But after traveling to many different countries I can say with some degree of security that the the USA stands for freedom. Very few other countries offer the oppertunities avaliable here. An example, a friend came to Florida from Cuba, poor and alone 5 years ago. Today he is a multi-millionaire. He made his money in real estate. As the value of his investments increase so does his fortune.

You might think that is a bad thing, that capitalism is evil, I don't know. But I think it's proof if you have the will, you can do anything you want in America.

If I were you, I would not stay in a country where I feel the Flag represents something akin to nazism. I would move out or not come in the first place. That is just my moral opinion though

So, Cat sees SL as an isolated virtual world with no relationship whatsoever with reality.

I would go along with that except for the fact that LL has pretty much dissolved that boundary already by releasing any claims to intellectual property. That means that there will be those of us who create content here NOT simply for the personal satisfaction or for the beautification of this virtual world, but because there is a chance we could be reimbursed at some point, somewhere, in the real world.

Why is that bad?

Is it merely the stereotypical objection to "commercialism" as if that is always bad? Or is it a resistance to change? Perhaps it's simply that Cat wants SL to never be anything than what it used to be?

Those are understandable sentiments, all of them. But they're not very realistic. The single most overpowering force behind innovation, creativity and better quality of life is none other than economic reward and an open. tolerant societal system. Government-sponsored subsidy can't do it alone (in SL, that would be the Lindens). Natural human altruism won't go as far as we'd like, because it's simply not that pervasive even in real life..

You cannot isolate SL completely from the real world for the simple reason that there are real people with real motivations inhabiting the place. Give those people sufficient incentive to create new scripts and devices which do wondrous things inside the SL world and they will happen. But that incentive must be more powerful than just "for the general good". That idealism doesn't work so well in practice. Random exceptions do not provide counter-argument.



SL is ON the internet, and as such a part of that metaverse. I'd be as reluctant as you and anyone else here to see spam and pop-up ads, but I think those are manifestations of the international and unregulated side of the net. It should be possible for SL to foster financially lucrative innovation and at the same time spare us residents the insipid, invasive spam we get on the rest of the net. It's in LL's best interest to promote that. Because, commercialism or not, the more lucrative this venture is for LL, the longer it will last and the better the infrastructure they can create. I'm 100% for that, even if it means I see web ads on prims here or there.

Frankly, if LL doesn't do it, someone else will. And they will eventually squeeze LL out of business. Then the wistful reminiscences about how SL used to be will be all that's left of the place. In this electronic world, you either adapt or you die.

Sorry, i was not clear.
I am an immigrant to Canada, not US.
As an immigrant I am (recently) required by my government (at the behest of your government) to register as an imigrant and keep my imigrant card with me at all times. This card contains every place i ever lived worked or went to school at as well as a lot of other information on a magnetic stripe. This card is swiped at airports, bus terminals etc. when I am in the States.

If I cross the border into the US I am taken to the sepearate "immigrant area" at the crossing and questioned, fingerprinted and sometimes photographed. If they chose to, they can also give me another card, (which I cannot refuse to carry) that enables them to track my movements while I am in the US.

If all this sounds like Nazi Germany to you, well.. it does to me also.

Apologies to all the nice Americans that I have met. Sometimes my sentiments against the US are a bit strong and I apologise for that.

But the people of your fine country should possibly WAKE UP to the way your govenment treats the rest of the world and actually do something about it.

I only say these things as a way of explaining why I might come across as Anti American sometimes. And i will sincerely try not to post about this stuff anymore
no one understands it anyway.

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On 11-14-2003 Robin posted the announcement on;
Change in Digital Ownership Rights

This morning we have announced a change to our Terms of Service which allows Second Life residents to retain the intellectual property rights to their in-world creations. This change means that starting today, once you've agreed to the new TOS, you will have the same ownership rights to your Second Life creations that you have for any original creations you make in the real world.

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I don’t see where LL is promising you that you will be reimbursed at any point. I also don’t see where I said that “I feel SL is an isolated virtual world with no relationship whatsoever with reality” please post that quote if it exists. I seriously doubt it does as I have also said that I am a strong supporters of LL forums via HTML in SL.

I have said that SL is a controlled environment, and it is as it sits on LL owned servers.

Do me a big favor and don’t assume anything about me, but more do not put words in my mouth that are not facts. If you want to know, how I feel ask me a straight question.

LL says that you have same ownership rights to your SL creations that you have for any original creations you make in the real world.

If you can make money in sl with your sl merchandise that is a great thing. But if you are ripping off textures off the web, claiming them as your own and reselling them then you’re a common thief. If your trying to sell me a rl product hit the door I’m not interested and LL has already stated on 6-12-05 that they are not either.
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Is it merely sentimental or is it stereotypical? Why are you speaking as if you know what I stand for when you apparently have not read my posts. If you had you would not be posting such things.

What is my stance on commercialism in SL? Well it’s the same as LL’s stance on commercialism in SL, I will do you a favor and post it again for you:
Posted By Robin Linden on 6-12-05

Advertising
There are currently no RL companies who have approached LL to sell or advertise products or services to SL residents. For example, in many video games (think football or racing, for example) you will see signage for RL products that mimic signs you might see in RL. Those signs have often been paid for by the RL company who knows that thousands, maybe millions, of people will play those games and see those ads. There are no such signs or ads in SL.

Similarly, no one has approached or paid LL to advertise RL products in SL and then link to RL websites similar to the Nike option in There.com, as an example.

Our position with respect to both types of advertising has been that if a RL company wants to buy land, set up a store, and offer products to SL users they can do that. We would not cut a deal with them upfront, and their success would depend on how interested SL residents are in what they have to offer.

Trademark Infringement
You may see things available in SL that are branded with well-known RL corporate logos. If a LL employee sees something like this they will ask the creator to remove the logo, since this is an infringement on a legally registered mark. There may be marks that we aren't familiar with, or that we don't encounter. If the owner of the trademark sees an infringement and wants it removed, they can let us know and we will take care of removing it.

Copyright violation
If someone feels their idea or creation has been copied by someone else they are free, under the DMCA rules, to petition LL to remove the copy while they pursue legal action. The someone in this case can be a RL corporation or a SL resident. This process is spelled out in our Terms of Service (paragraph 12).

So, to specifically answer your questions:
A. There is no process or guideline in place, since we are not selling advertising in SL. If that changes we will let people know.
B. Since we have not sold any advertising, there is no list.
C. If I understand this question correctly, you are asking what recourse someone has who is trying to compete with a RL branded object? The RL branded object is most likely violating a trademark. If we are aware of that violation we are obligated to remove the trademark. Whether or not that removal will improve sales of the competing item though, would remain to be seen.
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As if I had the power to do that J That’s just silly.

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Hey have as many ads as you want but don’t expect ppl like me to pay a fee for it. Which I have also said before. If ppl want things to go that way then the core revenue goes out the door in the process, I just don’t see LL giving up subscription fees not do I see them giving up land tier fees for some rl billboards in world. Thank goodness for that

So by your reasoning then xbox live is part of the metaverse.

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I seriously doubt that. SL is the best thing since sliced bread, ppl who have played constricted controlled virtual worlds have been waiting years for something like SL to come along. I do believe that SL is in its infancy, and I am looking forward to the changes that occur I however do not believe that placing rl ads and rl merchandise is the only way for the metaverse to evolve. I have been compelled to think outside the box from the moment I stepped into this world. the changes that have occurred already are mind blowing. The things ppl have come up with have already surpassed my expectations for a game in this stage of development.

Your completely wrong about one thing in particular; I am not against change, I believe when we stop growing and learning we start to die. Think of SL as a child and we are all its parents trying to decide what is right and what is wrong for it. Mom’s not always right and dad’s not always right but they do have a equal say in that growth.

I'm pretty sure I get the gist of what you are saying Cat. I don't think I 100% agree, but I do understand. And of course the issue of copyright has been a big thing for me (why I took down my gallery, why i'm taking a new approach, etc.)..

I do have a question to you during this discussion. I'm curious how you would feel about someone creating something in SL, developing it for RL, and then simultaniously(sp) marketing the two?

I suppose an example could be: People have really loved my clothing in SL. Some have suggested I submit my designs to RL "markets". Those markets *love* my work, and suddenly the fashions I made in SL are bringing me customers in RL as well.

Would you feel I should at that point remove my items from SL? What if I made mention in my SL shop about my RL store?

I suppose in a nutshell, I'm asking, if the item in mention benefits the in-world SL environment, and could do so without the RL involvement, would you still be opposed even IF it could be used in *both worlds*?

They don't promise reinbursment..

They give you the right to the content you create in world... That means Linden Labs does not own your Doohicky#5 and like Kermit Quirk you may sell the rights to that idea to anyone you want.. Sounds to me like Kermit got some

Well Pendari that is a real hard one for me. I have struggled with that since Shadow was selling his shirts on cafe press. I strongly believe that if you can make a living with your SL merchandise that is fantastic. If you can bring it to rl and sell it as a rl clothing that is even better for you. This is where I enter a very gray area that I do struggle with.

1st the easy one, no I would not expect you to remove your items from sl. After that I would say no one could or probably would stop you from mentioning your rl store in your virtual store.

I would love for all the creators in sl to become rich and famous. I think its a fine line that we have to be careful of.

No I wouldn't have a problem with you talking about your rl clothing line, or posting the link to your site in your profile. I would not be crazy about seeing a billboard in sl displaying your rl merchandise but because your a creator within sl I might change my opinion on that.

When I say rl commercialism I am talking about the big boys, there is in mind at least a big difference between hearing about your rl clothing line and seeing a mc donalds billboard in sl.

I think we all need to be careful not to cross that big line.

Cat