Neaultenberg is Necessary

It is? I thought it was just a governing body for the N. project, not everyone.

Wooo hoo Toy, another one that sees the light at the end of the tunnel and knows its a freight train coming to squash their existance. <<I'm Running out of the tunnel right beside ya..

Shadow

You could look at it that way --or you could look at it like --

Wow! You can own your own house in Neualtenburg without having to tier up! kewl!

I just can't for the life of me figure out why some are so hell bent on seeing this project fail. We are not hurting anyone. We are doing our own thing. Being involved is voluntary. So why the hell are people being so vicious as to want to squash our fun?

Pen Hun, I love ya but its simply this it's a bureaucracy that in it self is voluntary yes?

Point of History for ya. Unions were initially Voluntary then they became mandantory to "HELP" the workers.

Now some 40 years latter those same unions are still in effect but are nothing more than an economical drain on the citizens that work in that organization. (hence the responce about the train in the tunnel)

Yes Unions helped create better work environments but at the same time they rallied to congress to have laws passed that in effect have made them usless because the "Federal" government now regulates what UNIONS use to in fair labor laws.

Ok I know your thinking what the hell does a Union have to do with SL.

Simply this with these multiple threads the trend is LL tends to think that the threads are a great guage in which to enact something.

Right now with Haney's post they are staying out of it but if this blatent reposting of the same old tired subject continues LL may act in a way that is not conducive to the majority populace's wants.

Right Now a "Player Run" government is Voluntary. I am merely an advocate of it staying "Voluntary"

If Ulrika and Kendra succeed in an effective government within the confines of their land so be it I have nothing against that.

However all I ask is to quit trying to presume the rest of the world wants to hear the same old tired story of we got a government and we did it for you to make you better.

Those same slogans or ideology were used by the Unions back in the depression and people were too poor or too ignorant to not buy into it.

This is the information age and that attitude of "Im superior to you... attitude!" isnt going to cut it.

So finaly, Just let the forums drop it.

Let them Go about their business and make it happen and they (being the whole group) should quit trying to quantify how I or anyone else should submit to its concepts by trying to hammer it into us over and over again on the forums.

Thats why this is a free nation we have the ability to oppose something we vehemently disagree with. So let it go and get to work and dont worry about the rest of SL just dont try to impose it on the rest of SL.

I still love ya Pen, but I sincerely, disagree with it being brought up repeatedly when the points of it have been argued and settled by commentary from the TRUE ruling class of SL.

((hugs)) n talk to you latrz

Shadow

I myself am not trying to be vicious. I wouldn't even be discussing it if not for threads like these that keep popping up. This one was crafted as a pro-Neualtenburg thread, let's remember, claiming that Neualtenburg was "necessary". Ulrika praised the thread starter. In my mind that amounts to a blessing as far as starting posts like this and quite frankly, I think she enjoys the controversy.

I guess that, coupled with the fact that those threads where members of the projekt are dissenting with the leaders of said group, and is spilling over into the open forums adds to the *peanut gallery* type interest we see here. It also indicates to me that any type of internal dispute resolution system is failing. My suggestion would be for your group to do some internal damage control and ask folks like blaze and others (nicely) to stop starting threads about it in the forums. Both pro AND con.


It's also fairly obvious to some of us that Ulrika has designs for a "spin off" city and the hopes that it will "spread from there". I read this on your constitution page, and she has eluded to that many times here in the open forums. This is bound to raise eyebrows and perk ears. I also have to say that if Donovan is telling the truth about his having discussed this with some Lindens and that they see this as where they want SL to go, we all have a vested interest, therefore a right and even perhaps a duty to address it and to profess our viewpoints.

Im sorry but as I understand the village no one can own land, only the government. If the goverment feels one is worthy, whatever that means, they may think kindly of this person and grant them a few prims to construct a house. It wouldnt be their home though, it would be the goverment allowing them to build on government owned land. I would much rather pay my tier fees and keep my freedom.

First off, thank you Trimda, Shadow, and Nolan for your thoughtful, non-condecending, and understandable posts. It helps me much better to have a discussion on this issue than mass of name calling and untruths. I do see misunderstandings though, and those I want to address. But thank you all again for being so civil.

*heart stops beating quite so fast*

Now to address some concerns. I speak for myself, as a member of the Neaultenberg Projekt (as always I would never presume to speak for someone else). I have a grasp for what is going on, I see this experiement through a hands on level, I have always been a supporter of and contributor to SL and the community as a whole, and I hope that my word holds some value. Others from the projekt are free to step in, but regardless I feel that all I speak is in truth.

One thing I continue to see posted in concerned threads is "Ulrika and Kendra" this, "Ulrika and Kendra" that. Well, Ulrika and Kendra may be the founders and leaders of the project, however, the goal of the project is to move it from project leader run to government run. That government is being worked on now. We are establishing a constitution and various aspects of the government, and once that is in place we will be setting up laws. Ulrika and Kendra are *very* much going to be a part of this project, but the government we establish will be the ultimate thing that rules the project. If they were to re-nig and try and go above the government, it would render the project a failure, case closed. But I know they both want to see this project succeed and are working very hard along with the rest of us to see it do so.

Another concern I see is that some within the project feel it would be great to see an SL wide government. So what? That is a personal opinion that is no different from someone saying they would like to see nudity allowed in a PG area since guns are also allowed there. Controversial issue yes, but it doesn't mean that one person's opinion is going to change the face of SL. I personally would love to see other government experiments pop up in SL. And to those who think that a government will not work in an online environment, I say fine! That is your opinion. If we want to experiment to see if it could, as long as the project is voluntary, then so what. If we learn through the project that an online government won't work, well then I still call the project a success because at least we tried.

Another concern is that people in this project are trying to pull other people in. To that I simply say what project in SL doesn't. I mean come on.

It also should be noted that all the threads started on the various forums are not being generated by those active in the project (save for two - and one of which brought some much needed attention and evaluation to the experiment - so I say it was a good thing). Most have been from those who honestly have no understanding of what the project is about. Knee-jerk reactions to misunderstandings and false assumptions.

This project is *not* trying to take over SL. This project *is* trying to grow. The members of this project are *not* blindly following anyone. This project *is* going through ups and downs during discussions but that of course is to be expected when dealing with a variety of beliefs and opinions. This project *is* an experiment and thus it is going to have unforseen events. This project will *not* affect anyone who does not wish to be affected by it.

There is my summary for what it is worth.

It's just like SL! You don't really think you own your land do you? Are you going to take it with you and move it to There? Ha ha. You so crazy.

~Ulrika~

Here's another scenario, recently happened to Christiano..

Someone comes and clearly verbally abuses you in a way that the general populace has rules against. Linden Labs does *not* suspend this persons account.

But .. why not get him(the perpetrator..) banned from your "country's" SIMs that you all have donated tier to?

I would happly donate tier to a government that would take such an action.


Please note I did not say Neaultenberg is Necessary for all of SL. For that to happen .. would be like saying that algae is necessary for every inch of the world's oceans.

We will always want and need a mix of different governments. Anarchies, dictatorships, monarchies, democracies, minocracies, etc. For anyone to propose one government for SL would be the end of ideas and the end of a very important evolution.

For that, I strongly suggest that at every turn the Neaultenberg downplays any news or thoughts of being associated with linden labs, even indirectly. To do so, would only invite massive criticism from all corners.

Also, if you are going to criticize the Neaultenberg project, I really suggest you do some research first and go check out their forums. I am personally taken aback by the amount of thought, energy, and effort that has gone into this. I am the last person you'll ever meet to toot anyone's horns for the sake of tooting (partly why I'm widely disliked), but I am personally very impressed.

/103/1.html

Don't need it, don't want it, won't use it, won't listen to it and there's nothing you can do about it.

But since it's only in your own little place, go for it. Jest stay away from meh!

Refer to my post.

Such a government is only of any interest to the people who care about it. This person probably does not. So what has been gained by banning them? Banning is only punishment if they want to be there in the first place, other wise its just a feel-good exercise that accomplishes nothing.

That's good advice!

Yes. We've been very prolific lately. As a matter of fact, despite being one of the newest groups in the forum, we have the most threads and posts of any other SL group forum!

I invite all of you to check it out. It's good stuff and could always use some more creative minds.

~Ulrika~

First, what power would ant government have if LL had already decided on their reaction? None at all. Banning them from a region they probably would never visit?



If you would go back and read your initial post, nowhere in it did you state what your saying now.



This statement is a pure assumption on your part, I actually read every posting in the villages group threads. Simply because I disagree does not mean I dont study it. Mentioning that your impressed by it isnt worth anything to someone who also reads them and comes away with a completely different view, its opinions, nothing more.

Not to mention the fact that we can already ban people from our land, no questions asked. In a sense every land owner or group of landowners are already independent city-states. We (I believe) already have all the tools we need to deal with such people after they show their ass(es). Land banning, abuse reporting, muting, etc. No amount of government can prevent said person(s) from behaving as this individual did, nor can it supercede LL's decision, just or injust.

So what happens when suddenly disagrees with the group's ideals? What then? Open revolt or immediate kick out? Then what? The person is left without a home because he/she didn't want to tier up and pay, rather than live under some form of 'governed rule' I find that rather disturbing even if I'm not apart of it.

Also, what happens when someone decides to get a little carried away with their creations? You going to try and limit them? I'd like to see that happen.

Very good point Reitsuki! Due to the fact that this is the case, it becomes the responsibility of said community to create an environment that one would be unhappy if they were no longer allowed to participate. People have reasons they choose their online worlds of preference (SL, THERE, UO, EQ, etc). They choose once in those worlds which Guilds, Communities, Projects, Malls, Clubs, etc. to join. The do so based on the individuals involved and what they and their "whatever" has to offer.

The Government aspect is only one small goal of the Neaultenberg project. We must of course also create an atmosphere that makes people want to be a part of what we offer. That would make people want to abide by the governing rules, or fight to change them. That would actually make people upset if they could not be a part of it (in so many words).

Yes, for now it is as simple as logging off or going elsewhere. But one day (years from now, and not necessarily in SL) there may not always be that option. However, I address these issue in another thread and don't want to bog this one down with a repost. You can read my further thought on this here: /103/7d/27628/1.html

So we experiment now with possibilities. Learn the various aspects we need to cover, go through trials and errors. And in the end who knows what we will learn.

Well, one assumption is that that Neaultenberg plans on developing fairly compelling content. Also, its citizens for various reasons may want to host all of their events within the lands of Neaultenberg.

If you had been verbally abusive and were banned from compelling content and interesting events, you may curb your enthusiasm for such behaviour the next time..

Ahh, but that doesnt exist yet. Besides, the ratio of content in N.berg to out of N.berg will always favor out of N.berg. You don't have much bargining power there.

Hey Now! Give us some time! We are working on it!!

Ok. So yeah. No way one little community will completely compete with all of SL. But just as some prefer their builders, or designers, or clubs, etc. A goal would be to create a place where many people *would* really want to be a part of the community.

Of course you are also being a great argument for exactly why there should be no fear that this project would take over SL.

Wait till we open the Lesbian Satanic Sex Club....then you'll see compelling content

if only we can steal Lolita from Schwanson.....

Okay, what is this that I cant already do with just a few clicks on my mouse? Why should I have to wait for some commitee to decide this should be done. I would ban them instantly. As far as compelling content and interesting events, do you honestly think that someone who behaved badly really cares about them?

I mean no offense, but I think you've missed the point. Nearly every modern RL planned political experiment began with an extended dialogue/debate on the political and social definition of a human being in the context of the age in which he/she lived. The question was simple: what rights and responsibilities did circumstances create for a "virtuous citizen"?

In the case of the representational democracies of the America and France, the dialogue was contained in the essays of the continental liberals and the Scottish Whig philosophers, and in the debate which culminated in the outline-statements of the Declaration of Independence, the first ten amendments to the American constitution, and the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen. I'm saying y'all have the cart before the horse -- because life in Second Life is qualitatively different from real life, you need to think about the kinds of rights and responsibilities people who can fly, don't have to eat, can rez prims, etc., are obligated to have -- because they will be different, and will necessitate a different kind of politics, in a virtual world. Why? Because politics and government are based on a matrix of power, and what constitutes power in Second Life is very different from what constitutes power in real life -- control over food, shelter, sex, mobility, etc. Define what a human being is in this virtual world, and then define what constitutes power to that human being.

Do this -- and then the appropriate laws, codes, and structures and processes of government for Second Life will begin to suggest themselves. Don't do it -- ignore the examples of Locke, Rousseau, Jefferson, Franklin, the French commercial classes, etc. -- and I fear your experiment will fail for lack of relevance -- it will be a toy government, nothing more.




I read all of the N. project threads with great interest. What I'm suggesting may be difficult, I know -- but I think the government you've outlined does not address the "realities of SL and our place in it" merely because your assumptions about SL and what humans "are" in this virtual world are flawed to begin with. It doesn't matter how balanced or aesthetically-pleasing the structure and process you've set up is -- if it doesn't address the realities of life for citizens in SL -- and again, important parts of the SL experience -- materially and behaviorally -- are distinctly different from the real world models you're trying to mimic.

The representational government you've outlined in based on classic liberal assumptions from the Enlightenment -- and a key assumption is that environment modifies power, need, and human behavior. Engineer the environment, and you change the moral and social behavior of the human animal -- and SL is an engineered environment designed to encourage certain kinds of behavior. Since Second Life is qualitatively different from real life, if you accept the liberal ethic on which representative government is based, you must conclude that these differerences will require a manifestly new way of defining government and the social order. To conclude anything else is to contradict the liberal ethic on which representational government is based. So -- the first order of business is to define the differences of "life", and understand what they imply for power, politics, rights, and responsibilities.

And now I'm going to go back into the bar and get myself another margarita -- Key West is overdeveloped and nuts -- but I like 82F, starry skies, and a warm sea....

Ah, hola, senorita.... !!.... She points out I mispelled a couple of words! Smart woman....

Donovan has expressed very eloquently exactly what I was thinking but when I post at work I have to type quickly and then drop out for a few moments. When that happens my verbal expression most generally takes a different turn of trying to explain my thoughts.

So thank you Donovan for enlightening the masses on a very simple concept which I seemed devoid of rational thought to express.

To sum it up simply you cannot apply Real Life standards and needs to a virtual environment as Donovan mentioned the demographic of needs are entirely different.

Shadow