Neaultenberg is Necessary

Neaultenberg is necessary. Without it, we are all going to have to let our disputes be resolved by a body which has little in the way of democratic accountability to its populace - linden labs.

However, if we want to resolve the differences between us in a reasonable manner, we are going to need to learn how to get along .. in other words, we're going to need to learn how to govern ourselves.

Neaultenberg is an attempt by the populace to learn how to govern their behaviour, come up with fair and just traditions in a world where ideas reign supreme.

Unless we all grow up and throw our collective energies into an effort of this sort, our world will simply remain a childlike oasis from the real world where nothing serious is attempted.

Neaultenberg is necessary.

Who is we?
I hope your not speaking for all of SL here. It's been fairly well established most folks are against player coordinated dispute resolution.

Isn't there several threads that this could have been added too pertaining to this topic?

Nolan, I think most players are against player dispute resolution until they get into a dispute that Linden Labs simply ignores or provides some solution nobody is happy with.

The fact is, getting along is probably the hardest and most important social activity people need to engage upon.

Yes, it's easy to get along with family and friends .. but with absolute strangers? For that reason, the Neaultenberg project is very necessary.

MrsJakal, this thread is a show of support for the Neaultenberg project from someone not a member of its group. If there's another thread like that, I'd be happy to post to it..

I could never agree with player ran dispute resolution. Why would anyone believe a dispute could be handled by players in SL? We all agreed to abide by the TOS and CS when joining SL. I cant see any situation where I would not accept a LL dispute resolution. Its fair , its all thats needed. All any player ran dispute resolution would do is foment additional disputes.

Second life has no goverment, and we are doing fine. Just fine. If you want to implement a goverment go ahead and try, it wont get far.

No!

Toy,

The problem is, you can't vote for LL CSR. They don't need to be diplomatic, and if they make a decision which isn't popular with the silent majority, then nothing gets done, just a lot of people leave. There is no accountability to the people.

However, in a democratic government .. you get to vote for the people who are handling disputes. You get to say who has the right to dictate what's fair and what's not. If they don't do a good job - they get the boot.

Ryen, I suggest you wonder through the forums and check out all of the disputes which are bubbling over into the public because they're not getting handled by Lindens.

I also suggest you check out this wired article:

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,65562,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_5

Is it nessary? Some may say yes, but I feel not.

We're all supposedly above the age of 18. Now having said this, many individuals cannot, and some may not want to practice the simple principals of tolerance and dispute resolution. My own feeling is that it is totally unnessary, and infact a source of dhrama that I can live without. I have watched quietly on the sidelines, and until now, have not participated in the converstations of this project as I will not have my own name even associated with such an abmoniation. It had good intentions but obviously there has been subversion of said intentions.

Sorry, I am a faithful peon of the Monarchy of Linden Labs under the rule of King Philip and his court. Rarely do I call apon his court's service for I have ensured that I take all actions I can to ammiably resolve issues I may encounter with others. I have no need, nor want of any third party group of individuals to govern myself nor act as intermediary in any disputes I may have. LL has given us very consise clear tools and processes for us to follow. Why would I want a new party of individuals to now dictate new policy to me.

Sorry, I myself do not reconize Neaultenberg as an effect entity, and have the most earnest wishes that it remains within the borders of its single sim. I'll continue to watch on with curiosity, but have no want to be in contact with its influence.

I can see your intentions are good. However, I forsee this thread as another dispute over the Neaultenberg project and yes there are several threads that have already been well established.

I think there is a reason that other massively multi-user environments do not allow for player handled arbitration. Ones which have 500,000 participants and up. Somehow they aren't collapsing upon themselves and their average age for the most part are a lot lower than that of SL. Simply put, there is way too much room for corruption. Cliques are brutal enough in RL and my fear is that these decisions will be tainted by player alliances and loyalties. It's very easy to pass judgement on someone when you don't have to look them in the eye. I see in these forums on nearly a daily basis where people will jump to defend someone simply out of loyalty.

Along the same lines of what you are stating I would feel very uncomfortable allowing absolute strangers to handle my dispute. I have had some heated disputes here. No one suffered physical or lasting mental injury as a result. We have tools at our disposal such as the mute function and/or reporting to LL directly. If one reaches a point where those built in tools don't work to the desired end, then perhaps it's time for self-evaluation and maybe a break from SL. (Not referring to you here, just a hypothetical). I myself have taken a couple of self imposed hiatuses, and I know of many others who have as well.

This is really a sad attempt to get the Linden's attention to the matter. I mean REALLY REALLY sad. Just because you cannot settle disputes among yourselves, doesn't mean everyone has to get involved and apparently thats what you're trying to do.

We have the TOS and CS, deal with it.

It boils down to trust in the long run. I trusted LL when I signed on. I will continue to trust them. Could I trust all members of some politcal player dispute commitee? Absolutely not. Who would assining members to this commitee? Players? Then it simply becomes a poplarity contest. I for one would never accept a player ran dispute resolution commitee. I couldnt trust it.

God here we go again. This topic has been discussed to death. No government project in SL is going to affect SL as a whole, and Linden Lab has stated on more than one occasion that player run governing in SL is not what they want and will not occur. If you are so fixated on this project, then take part in it.

Trimda,

What would you do if you found some land in a sim, and the builds around you were abysmmal .. and you didn't want to move?

Or how about you were in a sim which was constantly lagged because someone was creating processor sucking scripts - and you didn't want to move because all your friends were there.

What would LL do? What could you do?

Nolan,

In other MMORPGs you simply do not have the capability to wreak the havoc you can in SL. You can create in SL, this is not very possible in MMORPGs. Also, nothing serious is ever really attempted in other MMORPGs.

Einsman,

Check my other posts on this topic. I have clearly and loudly stated that Linden's must not get involved with Neaultenberg .. not only would be it be wrong, it would also set back the process of setting up a government by a significant amount.

Toy,

Same situation. What would you do if there were processes in your SIM that were sucking up the CPU and the Linden's didn't do anything about it (they rarely do).

Ahh, Christiano. I can always rely on you to bump my threads.

Democracy failed. A while ago.

If there is going to be any sort of player organization, let's be a little more progressive and thought provoking.

Do you honestly think I'm blind blaze and not see whats going on? You're using this dispute amongs the other threads because the people are fighting amongst themselves. *IF* you even think that a player run government could even have a bit affectiveness on handling those kinds of disputes, go ahead and try.

I would solve the problem myself....... buy them out Just what would this resolution commitee do about it? If the Lindens had already decided to do nothing just what could the commitee do? Would they have the power to overide a LL decision? I hardly think so. It would be nothing but a farce. Playing Judge Judy in SL, yup, thats what we need.

Icon, how did democracy fail?

Einsman, what am I trying to do? It doesn't sound very nice of me whatever it is. My point is that we need to deal with the disputes somehow that are talked about here:

http://www.wired.com/news/games/0,2101,65562,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_5

I don't think LL is going to get into that game. So who is going to do it?

Toy, I think the way it would work is that you donate your tier to some organisation and they dole the land back out to you, with the stipulation that you don't create lag. If you do, then they come in with their professional lag detectors and apply the code of the land to your parcel.

Uhm Hello?! Isn't that what we're saying here? That's what the TOS/CS is for!

Not a well thought out answer. What force me to agree with this? Wouldnt the player then seek revenge? Just what kind of power do you think LL would agree to hand over to some player dispute commitee? This is fun at times to debate but honestly, it aint gonna happen

Nothing you can do. They are granted the right to build whatever they want within the ToS. Percieved *abysmal* builds are not a ToS violation. As far as scripts go, same answer, although my personal opinion is that CPU cycle usage should be monitored and metered as prims are. Ask Cris about this one.


I have played MANY other MMOE/Gs. There are many ways. Rezz spawn killing, controlling spawns, money duping, break in hacks, etc., etc.

I think some folks might be offended by your generalism about the seriousness of other online environments.



You mean a government for just Neualtenburg? I don't know that I am understanding you correctly. Are you suggesting Neualtenburg is necessary because you view it as the beginning of an SL wide government?



This is because there are no rules about CPU usage, unless you intentionally try to affect the quality other folk's gameplay. Something which I have heard Phillip state will not be tolerated.

All in all, do I think LL is doing an infallible job with dispute resolution? No. This is evidenced by the fact that the person who verbally assaulted Cris with racist insults is still allowed to play. So do I think improvement is necessary? Yes. If SL grows at the rate Phillip envisions, I am sure that eventually they will have staff members who deal with player disputes only. Let's face it, they have a lot of growing to do if we are to acquire 1 million plus players as they foresee. That said, I am much more willing to put up with some hiccups along the way than to place this type of power in the hands of faceless entities who will most likely have other goals besides solely being a neutral interest.

Well, you have asked two seperate questions here. Furthermore, you are making the assumption of "no choice" scenerios. Those are not valid questions for that fact as there is always a choice. To answer your questions objectively, I shall remove your assumptions.

1/ Then my recourse is to speak to the builders around me, or choose not to. If they do not agree to do anything pertaining to the quality of their build, I respect their choice. If I chose not to speak to them, then it has become my choice. If the results are negative, it clearly dictates my two choices that remains. a/ Move out, or b/ tolerate their builds. There are other choices for the more childish, but I shall not add those.

2/ Then once again, I can hope to seek the person responsible, and speak to them. If they choose not to fix their scripts, I too must respect their decision. I may be fustrated by it, but I still must respect their decision. Once again, I have two choices to live by, 1/ Move out, or b/ Tolerate the conditions.

Blaze, you make a grave assumption here of no choice scenrios. There is always a choice. We are supposedly adults here. Furthermore, there are specific TOS and CS sections which can be applied to atleast the second example you provided.

Player ran government is an experiment, that I am happy to say, as Christiano points out, is a limited experiment and not a replacement to the current system which is already in place. I chose not to associate myself with said government. I do not reconize its present nor future effectiveness, in ANY area (well, maybe for dhrama and useless threads poping up all the time). As of the current moment, it has been an unneeded source of forum dhrama and hostility. I for one feel that its impact has thus far been far more negative than positive.



It has been clearly demonstrated that infact, this entity you feel will solve issues, has infact caused more strife. Is the purpose of a player ran governing body to resolve issues or cause strife? You have deemed it the holy grail of dispute resolution, but yet I have not clearly seen any signs of this in action.

All I have to say is, thank goodness its only an experiment and LL has clearly stated that it won't go any further. Hehe, more for them students studing us to take notes on.

edit: oops i realized cristiano has said everything that ever needs to be said for those on the outside of a player community trying to bring it down.



to agree to a player run dispute resolution, both players would have first had to choose to live within a social contract difined buy that player community. they would have to join and dwell in the informational space that is marked by the sovereignty of that contract. refusal to agree to the resolution would be death=banishment from the community.

It's times like these I miss the dispute resolutions in UO. Invite the person to Felluca and kill them