Neaultenberg is Necessary

Toy,

Like Ju said .. I'm assuming you've agreed to the rules of the government. Voluntarily giving up rights is something that has been done before in SL and probably will happen again. In this case, you're giving up rights to a democratically (hopefully) elected government.


Nolan,

There will never be, one hopes, a linden sanctioned government. That would be a truly
sad day if that ever happened. When Talen mentioned that their project was linden sponsored, I was very shocked and suprised. It really set them back a lot in the eyes of everyone.

However, for people to come together and to agree on rules and traditions of behaviour is a powerful thing. It's a desire to cooperate and to do so in a fair and just manner.

Obviously, the problem with all governments, is that they are overreaching in the wrong way. This is the primal fear I suspect that people feel in most of these threads. After all, this is a very very natural desire of the government, to, well, govern!

Hopefully, though, there will always be a process to put that overreaching into check and even to roll it back.

Trimda,

You said it yourself - there were only two choices if you didn't move out. Talk or Tolerate. My assumption was that talking was not a choice, which given the things I've seen, is completely reasonable. Toleration seems to be an evil choice when there is a problem that could be solved by reasonable rules.

I for one am not trying to tear them down. As long as this arbitration occurs withing the confines of said community I have absolutely no issue with it. What I am refuting is Blaze's assertion that it's necessary (for the good of all SLers). I also refute the supposition that SL will fail without such a body, which has been presented by some community members.

Here's what happened to the TSO government:

Site Closed

At it's peak TSO had nearly 100,000 players with real social and economic crises.

I would like to point out that so far, disputes within Neualtenburg have apparently not been resolved within the community and continue to spill over into the forums.

Here's an idea. You can resolve my disputes with player-run committees when you pry my lifetime allotment in Grignano from my cold, dead hands.

Until then, go away.

LF

Ok, then we are on the same page, sorry for the confusion, I thought you were representing it as a necessary stepping stone to further the quality of SL as a whole.

In the first place why would any sane person give up the rights they are already guaranteed by LL?
In the second place, assuming we are talking about Neualtenbrug, your supposition about someone building an atrocious building wouldnt be allowed there, hence no dispute.

As has been stated time and again, the vast majority of SL are unwilling to give up their rights. Why would I give up all my land and rights to live there? Even in Neualtenburg there's perhaps 6 or so that want to be involved in the government. So the rest will be giving up their rights for nothing.

Goodness, I'd say that nothing in SL is necessary.

All of the governments that has been organized here are little more than dollhouses, with bedrooms that nobody sleeps in and dining rooms where nobody eats or drinks.

We're still copying the structures of RL without much thought. Food, water, security -- the seeds around which governments grew -- are all meaningless here. What does an avatar need? Privacy, maybe; and a flat place to rez. Friends, certainly. Sometimes an audience. Very different.

But it is art. I am still fascinated.

This is an irresponsible post. This topic was thoroughly discussed in
/120/08/27509/9.html#post278064

... which I just bumped. Way to spam the forum, blaze.

I couldn't agree with you more Hiro.

Because they thought that they would get more in the bargain than they gave up.

I visited Istanbul fifteen years ago. A bustling metropolis, with no traffic lights. Cars aplenty, and intersections were jammed.

If you lived there, wouldn't you give up your right to speed through any intersection any time you wanted in return for a system which gave you a pretty good idea when other people were likely to?

Rules (together with a system of education and enforcement) create order, and order can improve life. It doesn't automatically impact it.

But, as I said, SL is very different than RL, and the limited down-side potential (nobody can get mangled in a car accident, after all) certainly means that less rules are needed; and possibly none. But unless people are willing and allowed to discuss these concepts and play with them we're not going to know the answer.

Short-tempered posts (in truth intended to shut down the conversation) don't serve the cause of understanding.

This is a word which is almost always used in a context where there is danger. Please elaborate.

Im glad you pointed out that this isnt Instanbul, or any real place or situations. I can see no need for additional rules for the sake of seeing what would happen if a SL government came into being, which of course will never happen.
I also thought that was what I was doing, discussing this. Are discussions only meant to be one sided?

Believe me, that was not an ill tempered response, it simply boogles my mind that anyone would be willing to give up there rights. Let's face it, in SL any form of government , beyond the TOS and CS, is simply a toothless tiger.

Reasons it was potentially dangerous:
1. The original thread was full of personal attacks, and those same attacks are invited by bringing it back up.
2. The thread I linked was on page 4 or 5, buried. It is deceptive to post about it again as if the first one never existed to the casual boards reader. Deception about a heated discussion is, I believe, inherently dangerous.

If I am making sense, please don't post and just let this thread die. Thank you

Agreed. Unless a player government were to be empowered with the ability to administer sanctions, suspensions, bans, or other disciplinary action, which is the day SL and I will part company.

This is where I keep getting hung up. Just what should, would or could a player run dispute resolution committee be able to do? If they aren't provided with some *teeth* as you put it, it would be completely unneccesary. If they are given some *teeth*, it's gonna piss off a lot of folks. No win in my mind so I will continue to believe that such a body would really be a paper tiger.

1. www.blackboxvoting.org
You didn't vote for your president. This time, even the backroom "vote buying" didn't even have to happen (which has been a long known tactic where entire regions of voters were bought and traded between the major parties). With an entirely republican senate, a few well-funded electronic voting machine producers, and entrenched paperless electronic voting, you don't even have to buy it anymore. You just win.

2. Bi-partisan!?
Most democraticies are using proportional voting schemes. First past the post systems have led to unfair competition -- you as a citizen in say, America (certainly the most proud democracy), can't start your own party with any expectation to have a fair chance. There is no such thing.

3. Non-violent protestors being arrested all over
Here, here, and here.

4. Let's not even get into campaigning
As many have been complaigning about, the media is a double edged weapon. In the US, it's used against the people all the time. From skewing war-stories (for example Fallujah where the US screw up should put them on trial for war-crimes that Nazis were tried under) to campaign loopholes that let candidates slander eachother and spread libel. Campaigning has gone from reaching out to the people to slathering them in meaningless mass marketing messages.

"Until the become conscious they will never rebel, and until they rebel they will never become conscious." - George Orwell, "1984"

Orwell's predictions of 1984 have happened already. Democracy has failed to protect the people it represents. It is just as corrupt and susceptible to dictorial control as any other system. It doesn't represent the people -- it represents the wealthy and the politically affilliated elite. It represents corporations and economic interest.

It's easy to spot the parallels in SL.

Therefore; this "projekt" will (and probably already has) emulated the same short-comings as democracy.

Free my ass -- you're not free when you don't even matter.

blaze,

It really impresses me to see an individual take up a cause which is contrary to popular opinion and stick to it with logical arguments against a tide of criticism. Bravo!

~Ulrika~

I don't think that most folks are criticizing the projekt itself Ulrika, if that is what you mean. I myself wish you well in your endeavors, as long as they do not encroach upon my interests or well being within SL. I will continue to peruse your group's board and any pertinent posts here, negative, positive or indifferent, to keep abreast of your progress. It interests me as a person who has been to Rothenburg, is interested in politics, and speaks the German language. What was being debated in this thread was the purported necessity of the projekt, which is indicated by the title. I do not believe that supposition. SL made it nearly 2 years without one and I am certain it would've continued to do so.

You also had some very good points about whether or not a government is truly necessary as SL grows in size. My current opinion is that it is not truly necessary but could improve the quality of the gaming experience for those who are willing to give up some freedoms in return for services such as covenants, dispute settling, and vendor services. Additionally, it provides an extra dimension of game play for those who wish to explore the complexities of defining, running, and participating in government. I see it as another form of content creation.

~Ulrika~

*sighs*
It's really kind of sad to see two people toot each other's horn on the forums as a way to defend a controversial subject

"a government ... necessary [for] SL", as opposed to "governments necessary for SL".
This quote proves that Ulrika is, in fact, interested in a SL-wide government, not an experiment for localized governments. KENDRA, please take note of this because you and Ulrika are clearly saying two completely opposite things.

Ulrika, this is exactly what we all don't want .

Thank you, Jaunani. I think Ulrika just made an excellent, subtle point that is actually the heart of all of this. This is a purely opt in thing, as in free for people to choose to be part of or not be part of. Not being part of it has zero effect on your SL, unless you are one of the odd groupies who seem obsessed with tearing down this project. Those who opt in can enjoy the benefits of the project and the enhanced structure and communitythat could potentially spring forth for those involved. However, it is a purely volunteer situation, that is why I still do not get all this animosity, and people coming out of the woodwork saying "I AM OPPOSED TO A PLAYER GOVERNMENT TELLING ME WHAT TO DO". Thanks, got that point the first 900000000 times you shouted it. I think what they are trying to do is brilliant, and does have the potential to take SL to a higher level for those who want to take part in what they are trying to achieve.

No, Cristiano. Reread how Ulrika talks about it. She always speaks of SL government as a universal thing, not as regionalized local governments.

No, Hiro, reread what I said and quit playing the semantics game. Again, regardless of what Ulrika wants, which may in fact be a formal player government (though only she could speak to that, though you seem to what to define what she means for her), her wanting this is not going to make it happen so please stay focused on this project and what it can be, and what it is not, which is some threat to freedoms in SL. Any player run government in SL is only empowered by those taking part in it.

I am not tooting anyone's horn. If you can't comprehend civility then that's your issue. I for one am tired of everything having to be confrontational. One thing I am not is a sycophant. thanks for your concern though.

Do us all a favor and stop trying to play mini-moderator here. blaze can post whatever the hell he wants as can you (which is quite clear), Ulrika and myself. If you don't like it, don't read it. Your coming off as obsessive and controlling.

What is actually necessary is porn

Great huge gobs of porn.

Do your bit and help SL.

Buy more porn today!

Siggy.

you are not a very smart person are you. i bet you could read conspiracy off of a restarant menu couldnt you?

I had boiled pr0n for lunch, tomorrow they will be sauteed in astroglide.