Neaultenberg is Necessary

LOL

Nolan, I meant blaze and Ulrika!

As for your second comment, just as blaze and ulrika and you can "post whatever the hell [you] want", perhaps you can take your own advice in regards to me? Posting in an open forum indicates the poster's desire for open (yet mature) feedback.

Hi. 1 post? Are you a newbie who has no clue or tact, or are you (more likely) an alt of a person too cowardly to post their real name?

Sorry I misunderstood on the first account, you did after all, quote Ulrika's response to me, which is why I made that connection.

As far as the second part goes, I am tired of the handful of folks in these forums who enter threads chastising people for talking about one subject or another. That is what I meant when I said to ignore it if it irks you. In other words, I was not referring to individual posts but rather entire threads which garner the admonishments of non-Lindens.

Roger that. I figured those were just miscommunications. It's so much nicer when two people can explain themselves like adults, yay.

Toy,

<<I could never agree with player ran dispute resolution. Why would anyone believe a dispute could be handled by players in SL?>>

I would hope that by now people would know that I am not too keen on the idea of self-government in a virtual world. But one thing I have to say: oddly enough, in the world I always use as an example of how bad self-government can be, the player-run dispute resolution was about the only thing that really did work. The only problem was that its decisions were often overturned by the rest of the governing body or the owner of the site. But I served on this body for some time, and each member put in an enormous amount of time and effort to ensure that its decisions were fair and just. And I don't think there was ever a single complaint received about the decisions made.

However, this was in the context of a totalitarian government, and the situation in second life is a very different one.

I'm not worried, Hiro.

Two things I have noted,

It appears that toleration is something you aren't too fond of. I feel that from you're responses that action must be taken if someone is to inconvience you, and that the current system in place is no where near to your satisfaction. I fear that if your ideal system were to be in place, SL would suffer greatly. SL would become a "police" state, where every action must be chosen carefully for it may come into conflict with the player imposed laws

My second note, you conviently avoid the fact that this project has infact caused more strife than good. Would you prefer the guidance of a quiet monarchy, or the chaotic rule of a depotist regime?

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Hiro, Just because Ulrika may like the thought of an SL wide government or governments, DOES NOT mean that is what will become of the Neaultenberg project. Many of us involved in the projekt very much DO NOT want to see an SL wide government. One person is not making this project tick. It is a group effort. So honestly it does not matter that Ulrika's personal opinions differ with yours or others. The Neaultenberg project stands to teach us (meaning those who are interested in following its course) some things that could and could not work in an online government. It is an experiment and will not become the government of all of SL unless LL suddenly flips its rocker.

My reasons for wanting to be a part of the project even though I am against the idea of an SL wide government can be found in the other thread you linked to a few posts back.

Could you elaborate on this Trimda? I am obviously not seeing what you are and I am curious as to perceptions of those outside the project. I mean this sincerely.

Thank you Pendari, sincerity is very much appreciated

Well, in the recent while, this forum has been overran with posts pertaining to the subject of this project. I do reconize that it is a very ambitious project, and there is nearly a 100% chance of nay-sayers, I also have seen a trend in social conflict being created.

Examples,

The misunderstandings that came from the "Anti-Bush and Anti-War" event. While the Anti-War cause is applaudable, commendable and infact I agree with it, people spent more time bumping heads on the subject. Infact, the very foundation of the project came into question. Further to this, the "Anti-Bush" title is infact very insensative to those who are supporters of his and considering the current polarization of the American nation. This immediately has painted the project into a new shade of fushia.

The recent events with Ace. While Ace may or may not be serious, another heated situation has arisen. This could obviously be handled in a better way. While certain individuals may feel he is making jest, the situation could have been handled in a better way. Simply deleting the post will not resolve the issue, infact its blatently naive to think that this will not cause the problem to spiral out of control. Infact, it furthermore fosters greivances individuals may have, and simply cause the post to move elsewhere, with a more hostile tone.

Now having said that, some of the project leaders have also contributed to this in immeasurable ways. With a project in a political/government arena, one must understand that every action, and every word is carefully scrutinized by others. Furthermore, one must be either neabulous or consise with one's goals and statements. There are many examples where certain project leaders where more interested in self-defense and self-preservation then foster communication, understanding, and equitable resolutions.

hope this post shed some light from an individual watching from the wings. In my eyes, the project has been comprimised early on, and has clearly become a depotist state. Unfortunately, thats all I can post at this time as I have to go support my RL government with tax dollars, doh!

Wow. Another N./SL government thread! And I was just passing through the internet briefly to collect mail and pm's....

Three things.

First, I've talked to Lindens who swear up and down that a player-run social and political order is exactly what LL is thinking about. So -- could we get some clarification here? Apparently there is either confusion among the gods, confusion among those the gods speak to, or both.

Second, I echo -- partially -- Jauani Wu's sentiment from another thread: 40 members of the N. project and so far, at least four political parties? Why -- given the environment and the technical capabilities of SL -- is anyone thinking about separating members from the democratic process by a layer or two? Why not consider a common and direct democracy? "Growth" is not the issue -- real thought and creative use of SL potentials can do more to avoid partisan bickering, inefficiency, and member alienation than any representational organization that merely mimics the real world.

Third -- Y'all got things backwards. Learn to move before you try to run. Rather than organize the process of government first -- representational democracy, totalitarian socialism, technocratic anarchy, whatever -- try to conceive of what basic rights and responsibilities are necessary for a human being living in a virtual world like SL. For example -- we fly. What are the basic rights and responsibilities inherent in that condition? We can rez far more things far more easily in SL than RL -- which means we are by some standards "wealthier" and have a higher standard of living (we also don't need to eat or have shelter). Again, what basic rights and responsibilities proceed from that condition? There are many other examples. Once you define these things -- then you can start thinking well about forms and processes of government, codes, and what-not. But a process discussion is pointless until you do the basics. And no -- I've read the threads -- you haven't done it yet.

Politics in the N. project seem to be based on RL situations that I find partially irrelevant to Second Life. And the bickering is beside the point, as well. So are protestations about "anarchy". Y'all need to think in virtual terms, and that means something new. Otherwise, in ten years. you're going to be irrelevant.

But what do I know? I'm in the Florida Keys, right now, sitting on a beach beneath a palm tree, with my laptop linked to the internet through my cell phone. And the sun in shining, and I hear the waves slapping on the sand a few feet from my rapidly-tanning legs, and you could flame me all you want and I'd just say, "Peace, brothers and sisters, I'm gonna go swimming now...."




ed. sp.

If "player dispute resolution" works like these forums here then I really can do without it.

I have been ambivolent in the past about government in SL My opinion hasnt changed no need to rehash it.

However this thread being started is a clear sign of an individual or individuals that cannot clearly pull their head out of their fouth point of contact and hear what is being said.

Its kinda like yelling at someone taking a hearing test. All they are focused on is the sound of the beeps not the fact the Nurse is out side waving screaming there is a fire in the building and to get out of the booth.

Anyway I digress and shall not dive into this one hastly like I did in the past.

So in Simple Terms:"Blaze whats your point? Why rehash something that you know is going to create adversity when LL has spoken up on it?" Please note my questioning is directed at the reasoning of posting about this, not the government not Ulrika or Kendra. It's directed at the orginal Authors intent nothing more nothing less.

Sincerely, Shadow

See blaze, I told you this would end up another dispute thread.

Noone ever listens

I am so jealous! Send me a tp please.

What if this vast 'we' wants this? I know I do.



There is a really signifigant logical breakdown here.

The Neaultenberg works *only* within itself. In order to be subject to the laws of Neaultenberg, one has to have made a decision to be a part of it, and you can only be punished within the context of Neaultenberg.

Over time, Neaultenberg will increasingly become a group of individuals with similar ideals. Problems will begin to fade because the group that has stuck it out for the long haul will basicly be like-minded individuals who would probably get along fine without the governing body. Trouble will come from those who disagree with the very premise of Neaultenberg, and by definition there is absolutely nothing Neaultenberg can do about those individuals.

So basicly you have a government that has power only over those who agree to at least some extent with the government to begin with and care about what the governing body as a whole things.

'Problem' people, however, almost by definition aren't going to care what the governing body thinks. So you have a government that exists only to deal with a small group of people that it is incapable of dealing with in the first place.

In other words, it will wind up being an otiose beuracracy.

In fact, that's about all it is now.

Which is not necessary.



I can click that nifty little "X" button in the upper-right corner of my screen if I want the real world. I'm here BECAUSE it's a childlike oasis from the real world.

What's with all the political agendas trying to align themselves with Neaultenberg ??


I think Neaultenberg needs an identified speaker and then some rules put in place on who is allowed to talk about it in the forums. If enough people say things like this over and over, eventually it takes shape.

Y'know for centuries we've had war. And we've had peace rallies. It's kind of hard to have a peace rally that doesn't disagree with the person who is leading the war.

But that won't stop the righties from saying "Oh I'm being so wronged by that rally because it's against my views" and then the lefties say "Oh but Bush is horrible and we should get rid of him"....

Nobody cares about having fun these days. They see a way to push their agenda and they pounce.

I see what they are trying to do here.

You guys can try, but it's not gonna work... well not with me anyways. Try and gouvern me and I will make your home @ 5000Z. It will only work with those who are willing to work with you.

Also SL is privatly owned... if it were public.. that would be a different story. I agreed to the TSO, what will make me want to agree with additional rules you put in?!

You cannot govern an unwilling people. Try as you may. As I said before, past posts and threads have made it a very sad excuse and attempt to push this subject forward. Nor I or many people of SL will recognize this government to turn for actions. I will flat out refuse, and by refusing that I cannot be banned from SL. So your attempts at this are futile at best.

This is an excellent question. The reason that I wanted to inject a layer of abstraction is to prevent people from voting on the personality of an individual. During in-world and in-forum debates it is hoped that the discussion will focus on the platform of the parties and their relative potential benefit to the city and not the individuals. I remember being crushed by some of the most hateful comments I've ever had directed towards me in my life in these forums not less than two months ago. I almost left the forums (and the game) permanently. No person should have to subject themselves to this and I believe that layers of abstraction such as a parties are critical for online government to thrive.


Your statement that one must first begin with a list of rights involving SL-specific abilities (flying? prim building?) is odd. It's like saying you have to have a list of items to put in your suitcase before you start packing! I agree it would help but it is by no means necessary. As we continue with our thought experiment and slowly transition to applying it in the real world, we'll discover any points that we missed and make modifications accordingly. Further, as you'll read below most aspects of the government are geared to address SL-specific needs.

I am beginning to doubt that you've read our massive constitution thread, caught the discussions on freedom of speech, or the debates on how to prevent malevolent griefers from subverting the Representative branch, while protecting individual freedom. Every aspect of this project is constantly addressing the realities of SL and our place in it.

Further, did you know that every branch of government has dual roles, a governmental role and a service role? This is to ensure that the government provides a useful service to the citizens. The Representative branch is democratically elected using party-list proportional representation with seats filled by the Sainte-Laguë method through single transferable votes (STV). They are in charge of organizing and coordinating city events to keep visitation high. The Artisanal branch is a workers collective with no restrictions on entry and ordered according to seniority and productivity. They are in charge of building goods and infrastructure for the city. The Philosophic branch is a closed meritocracy that interprets the constitution and can veto laws based on their constitutional validity. This branch is responsible for settling user disputes and monitoring events.

The entire system is geared to specifically address the needs of an SL community and to prevent the government from becoming a parasitic bureaucracy.

Are you sure you really read the forums or are you pretending to, such that when you throw stones they have an illusion of authority?

~Ulrika~

You cannot just assume that we need this. Just because you feel its necessary. Keep your project out of my business and I will stay out of the project. You cannot force someone's idealolgy to invade other's spaces. That is exactly what this project is trying to do and I will not stand for it.

Correct me if will on this quote. No one in the village can own their own land. The government owns it. It seems to me that the people are required to support the government. The people exist for one reason, to support the government that cannot support itself. It just seems to me the quote contradicts itself. It simply appears me that the government is already a parasitic bureaucracy.

How is the Neualtenburg Projekt trying to do that?