A call for ALL new land release to be URGENTLY SUSPENDED

What solution do you propose Anshe? What do you see as the problems?

I don't see a problem

I don't either. The land won't stay cheap, but if a few people who were only here for the profit get soaked, I say it's about time they got their comeuppance.

omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg omg!!!!

Is it TRUEEEEEEEEEEEEE???? I can buy 'LAND'......??????? Again......??? with my stipend?????? Could it beeeeeeeeeee???? *gasp*!

One thing to think about when trying to understand land values in SL. Land in RL has value and increases in value because there is a finite amount of land, in SL there is an infinite amount of land. It is not logical to buy land expecting it to increase in value like land in RL, because of this fact. This is SL, not RL. Please, evoke a little logic.

I would like to see 100,000 lindens = $10.00 bucks.

I think it is important for us all to realise that LL can do anything they like with both the price of land, and the exchange rate (the price of money). They ultimately control the supply of both.

Anyone thinking of holding either has nothing to trust and hold onto except LL's declared policies and intentions.

They declared a policy a few months ago (I wish I could find the quote) of holding both stable at the then current level. They have all the tools to do that if they so wish. It seems now that they don't so wish.

The question is - why ?

They remain silent, so lets consider some possibilities

1. They have reconsidered, and think lower land prices would mean happier players, so they are letting them drop to some new level.
2. They want to experiment with an alternative model for controlling the economy (a bit less control, perhaps, or different?), and what we see are the birthpangs of the changeover.
3. They are perturbed at the growth of Anshe's economic dominance (and maybe at her little acts of defiance) and have decided to quietly break her without ever having to admit to such an intention.
4. They just want to keep changing things around, so that the whole thing remains fluid and no particular interest or player strategy can become entrenched (sort of generalised version of number 3).
5. They can't be bothered. It doesn't matter. What the heck, let it just cycle all over the place as it likes.

Can't think of any more off the cuff. There must be others. Anyone ?

Remember, the fact that land even has a selling price at all is just an LL choice. Anyone care to come up with some thoughts on the days when it didn't, and whether that worked better? Could give us further insight....

One thing I know. I have been accused of Anshe-bashing, and I don't like some details of how she has operated, and if she is to get this big I want two or three others up there with her, to avoid monopoly power. But overall what she has done, breaking land bulk, forming new communities, acting as emergency-buyer-of-last-resort, showing us all that SL can really be more than a game, and supply a RL income - All this has been positive for SL in the eyes of those of us who see it becoming more than a game, which is LL's declared intent.

If they burn her off now, and wipe her out, it will be a long time before anyone takes it as seriously again. And the rest of us who happen to hold a bit of land, while losing much less, will hesitate to trust them again too.

Remember, we only have 20,000 odd members. When we get to a million, how many Anshe's will we have room for ? And be easily able to accomodate and welcome them, even if we do complain now and again? Lots and lots.

What amazes me is how easily LL could stop all this slide. One clear posting in "Announcements" is all it would take, saying what new level they will actively control to, and how the control will be done. (To pretend they are not still making the decisions is nonsense, even inaction is a big decision). Except that if they remain silent much longer no-one may believe them when they do speak.

Or maybe all the land speculators have fucked themselves. Don't blame LL, look in the mirror. The land market has defied logic and economics for a long time. It is adjusting itself, adjust with it, or die. Have a nice weekend

Yea, that would be great! Then a 1024 plot of land would cost $L 1,600,000 and we'd all be zillionaires.

I don't really see any signs of much speculating in land, here, Eboni. Surely speculating involves buying in the hope the price will rise with time, doing nothing but wait, then selling on. I see no signs that Anshe, for example, has ever done that.

Buying something in bigger amounts than people want, for amounts of cash bigger than people can afford, then dividing it up, and selling it again in affordable chunks..... Having meanwhile taken the risk (and born the cost) of having to hold it for a while.....

Is that speculating? Every small shopkeeper does that with a case of baked-bean tins. Are they doing nothing worthy of making a living ? Are they all parasites and speculators ?

Heh - be careful what you wish for. Personally, I'd really rather not go THERE.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&safe=off&rls=GGLD,GGLD:2004-38,GGLD:en&oi=defmore&q=define:speculator

Please review the definition of a speculator. Purchasing something and hoping to later sell it for a profit is speculating. There has been little reason using known economic facts to expect that land speculation in SL would last for any period of time.

Also, I didn't mention Anshe, why did you bring her up? I am directly addressing your whining here about losing money on something you should have never logically expected to profit on. Lets keep the focus on you, your thread, and your issue.

I am a little iritated at losing a little money, but its a small amount personally and losing it is no more than a slight irritation. I never dreamed of a profit. You must surely have seen by now that it is not my issue, but whether SL should stick to their declared intention of keeping the economy moderately stable.

You seem to have reduced and personalised this issue rather than answer a simple question - is a baked-bean-selling-small-shopkeeper speculating?

Notice I m not saying anything about your motives for posting, or any possible agenda. As is proper in the forum. How could I know or even guess ? Please do me the same courtesy. If I have done this to you, please point it out and if valid I will apologise.

On second thoughts. Don't bother answering the question. I guess if you wish to adopt a bizarre interpretation of "speculating" that's your affair, Eboni. It hardly matters to the issue of the thread - should LL choose the actions they already have to take, so that they stabilise the economy? or is uncontrolled boom and bust ok ?

Looks like most people here think boom and bust is ok.
Perhaps some welcome the opportunity it provides for genuine speculation. For that purpose boom and bust cycles are perfect.

*sighs*

I liked the days when you could still find land for L$1 per m2. Seemed like it was actually worthwhile to own then.

Or we like having the chance, every now and then, to buy land without also paying a Speculator's mortgage in the process. I don't see why people wanting to buy land to use, without much thought to reselling it, is such a hard concept to grasp.

dito

I think that's too narrow a definition for "speculation". Speculation does not require an overall increase in property values. Speculators may be gambling that they will be able to find a buyer for a particular property at a higher price, not necessarily that "prices will go up".

It is the gambling aspect of it that makes it speculation. Uncertainty. There is a LOT of land speculation in SL.

Buster

I recently sold 12K M2 for a loss. Well not a complete loss, and I honestly can't remember what I paid for all of it since I bought it in parts. The only pieces that I purchased cheaply were the plots Beryl sold me *flash FIC card* other than that I bought most of it at that market rate of $10L per m2, then I sold it for like $7L per M2. The land was some of the most unique mainland in SL, for several reasons, and could have in the past fetched a price more than $10L per m2, but not in todays market. I sold it quickly and at a "loss" for several reasons. The sim was buggy and slow and had more active scripts than a shopping sim, there are new sims out there that are faster, and more than anything, the land served its purpose and I didn't need it anymore. I bought the land to build my faux SL dream house and so my friends would have a place to live, that was the sole purpose of the land. The land did what it was supposed to do, when I tired of it, I sold it.


It is not about boom or bust it is about a market. I personally find the current market a little thrilling. There is a glut of land, so land is cheap. Economics at its finest at work, you learn about supply and demand in HS and now you can apply it to SL! Wow, get the kiddies in here and team them a lesson I remember last year when land was scarce. Currently you have a very wide variety of land to choose from when buying and it is a buyers market. You can get snow land and PG land for almost free. Waterfront mature for a song. It is a wonderful time in SL for the average citizen. Viva le Revolution!


If you were really concerned about losing money you would just keep the land until the market stabalizes which it will probably in the fall, or you can panic and sell now. Personal choice.

You are forgetting one thing: TIER.

You have to figure out how likely you think it is that the land value will go up enough to cover the tier.

For example, if you have an extra 512 m2 that is costing you an extra $5 per month, at 260 $L per US$, you are paying $L 1,300 per month, or $2.53 per m2 per month. If you could sell it for L $2000 today, you'd have to get $3,300 for it after your next billing date. You'd have to get $4,600 for it after the next billing date. And so on.

Your logic is only correct if you are at a higher tier and selling the land would not move you to a lower tier category.

Buster

Sounds to me like we need more L$ sinks. Maybe a L$ tax on land transfers.

Which is actually part of how you have to speculate; If the market changes and I have to shoulder some land, how is this going to effect me in relation to my tier? Should I sell off a little quickly to decrease my tier? Should I take advantage of the lower prices now and buy more to fill my tier? Etc, etc.

Well yes, there is the tier to consider, it seems more logical to sell at a low price rather than pay more in tier than what the land is worth. Again it is all personal choice and the whole community shouldnt be affected because one person, or several people made some poor land deal choices.

Forget the precise definition of the word. It was used I think to imply parasitic activity of no value to anyone but the perpetrator. Like the baked bean seller, this is not in general fairly applied to our landbarons.

hahah 'forget what the word means... here use this definition'

Mind you, we wouldn't need people to split up the baked bean crates if you could buy individual tins direct from the wholesaler.

I think the decision to only auction whole sims is appalling, and makes us need barons more, not less. I noticed Phillip said they would reconsider this if people objected, but that they did it because very very few of us ever bought in the auctions. I guess we brought it on ourselves. If we haven't the guts to buy smaller plots wholesale when we can, we get stuck with retail only except for a whole sim.