A call for ALL new land release to be URGENTLY SUSPENDED

are you suggesting that ellie and blaze is manipulating the forum discourse?

Well, no, I can't be SURE, but based on the transcript from Philip's town hall, full sims on demand is how it will work starting on the 15th. You do raise a good point though - price stability will depend on there being more than just a couple people willing to buy whole sims and parcel them out. The point of the change though is that all new mainland sims will start out at the same price - $1000 - and very few will go for much more than that. Therefore, as long as mainland prices stay below that point, no one will buy new sims. And when the resale price goes up above that, you'll see speculators buying them up, and also groups forming to buy neighborhoods together.

If I spent more time in SL than I do, I'd probably want to start organizing neighborhood groups myself! Places like Gray and Seacliff and Numbakulla are just a few examples of what can happen under that model. I don't know if the new system will really result in more places like this, but at least it no longer actively discourages cooperative enterprise.



As also noted in the announcement, initial island prices are now going to be higher than for mainland sims. But you're right; if people keep buying islands instead, mainland prices will tend to stay low. I seriously doubt they will drop out entirely, unless the majority of landowners were actually owning as an investment! In the meantime, just remember to buy low and sell high.

Ellie, the economy has been rising and falling since I joined 16 months ago, and I wouldn't say that the control of sim release has had a noticeably stabilising effect on prices. I bought snow land when it was scarce and expensive last year, and sold it when it was very cheap.

I have not made money but lost money on virtually every land deal I have done, either because I chose to sell at a low rate in order to lose tier, or because I sold to friends, or because I had to get the best deal I could get, and it wasn't possible to even break even. I was willing to take those losses when I could afford them, because I regarded my tier and my investment as payment for the enjoyment I get from the game. Once I couldn't afford them, I got out of land and tiered down to basic.

According to people who watch the auctions, contrary to your statement, land will be limitless and uncontrolled, mainland as well as island sim. The effect of the new changes is to prevent one person from controlling the price of land by winning all the auctions. Unless she has a bottomless pit of money and can afford to bid on endless auctions, she will be unable to keep starting a new auction at the end of the last. That means that land will be in the hands of other people, but only ones who can afford whole sims. One the mainland.

As for the effect of Hiro Queso's operation, Blaze, I don't think you can conclude that he has affected the buying market with his rentals, necessarily. A lot of the people renting from him have got out of the real estate dealing business because the price of good land was too high, because they no longer wanted to live next to laggy clubs and malls, and because they need to be able to close their land/shop/account overnight when necessary rather than waiting to be able to sell their land, possibly incurring another month's tier.

People's reasons for having land are many and varied, and their reasons for renting it rather than buying it are also many and varied.

The tenor of this thread is to suggest that land is land is land, but we all know that there is a wide variance in prices according to location near to telehub or not etc. Buying wisely is difficult to do in SL. Renting wisely is easy. That's why I live in Hiroland .
Cali

Got the landlord blues? Wish you could own a share of your own sim? Tired of paying LL and a middleman, when land is so cheap?

Neualtenburg is the solution! Second Life's only nonprofit land cooperative and democratic republic. Own your own share of a private sim. Decide how you want it to evolve.

This is a paid advertisement of Neualtenburg LLC not affiliated with Neualtenburg Nonnutritive Serial Varnish and Shoe Tongues of Hoboken.

~Ulrika~

you, you... you CAPITALIST!

shit, now I will get banned for a personal attack, and they will take my game away too. Oh the horror.

It's funny that you wrote "capitalist" in capital letters, because the word to describe the letter size is almost the same as the word that the letters spell. Yup.

Death to capitalist pigs!

~Ulrika~

I'm trying to work out how this is significant.. Sorry don't see it..

I'm not about to feel guilty because someone may (or may not) have something wrong with them -- and if I'm reading this correctly was quite irresponsible by spending more then they could afford on entertainment?..

It would make me feel psychologically better if I got half the money back for every DVD I rented too.. or half the money back on my cable bill when I stopped using the internet.. but it aint gonna happen.... and more importantly why should I feel guilty if it doesn't?



Nah I'd say just like me, she won't buy it.. and I guess a lot of other people won't either... and that will force the price back on down...





I think it would ROCK! I think the price should be dictated by what people want to spend.. And honestly I think the whole thing is just a bout of tough titties because someone may lose a few bucks....

Honestly... you went into a high risk buisness, and at the first sign of things not going 100% your way you're crying foul.. When the market was high people were screaming 'free market free market!' well now that the market is swinging the other way your screaming 'regulate! regulate!'

Sorry - you don't get to have it both ways.

Now excuse me while I go and do a find on land prices to see if I can continue to wear my shit-eating grin tomorrow as well.

I just don't understand this. What does it mean to say that an auction will run until the land is sold ? When is the land sold if not when the auction reaches its timelimit ? Surely anything else is not an auction ? Does everyone else understand this ? Am I just tired? It reads like rubbish to me.

I believe they mean that if there are no bids, the land will remain on auction until there is a bid.

Oh dear, I'm so weak. I can't resist one more try.

I'm not asking for SL to regulate something they are not involved in. They can't help being involved in the price. They are the manufacturer and supplier of this product. They face a steadily increasing demand (new players) and up until now they have met every week to make a decision. "How many sims shall we put up for auction". I'm not propose some interfering outside busybody sticks their nose in. I'm just trying to influence a decision they have had to make every week. Would you accuse a glove manufacturer of trying to regulate the price of gloves when he adjusts his production schedule to meet demand?

The interesting thing coming out of this thread now, is that people are suggesting LL intend to change their strategy for control. Previously they regulated the supply, and let players decide the price in auction. This confused stuff I am now reading about an auction that is not an auction seems to imply that they are going to directly control the price instead. Instead of controlled supply with a freely determined price, we will get unlimited supply, but a controlled price.

Is that it? Its not clear - this not-quite-an-auction confusion obscures it. If there really are an unlimited number of auctions to chose from, they are no longer auctions. Each person just bids the minimum $1000 on his own auction. Why should anyone then compete ? They just put in the same $1000 bid on one of their own. That would be just a disguised $1000 fixed price.

If this is right, we are gaining less control, not more. A less realistic market not a more realistic one. A fixed wholesale price for all land. Small buyers excluded. Retail prices fixed by the margins a few big buyers choose. And no anti-monopoly or anti-cartel provisions in the TOS to protect us.

If the big dealers stubbornly refuse to drop prices on reduced demand, we could get into a stalemate situation. Before we could always go to the auctions ourselves, and drink from the same well as they do. No more.

Now I'm even more worried. As well as being confused about the true nature and implications of these proposed non-auctions.

But what then? Does it sell to that first $1000 bid ? Thats not an auction.
Or then start running for 3 days more ? But why compete - just bid on a different one, since there is always a good selection available, and an unlimited supply. Why would there even be a second bid, unless the supply is limited ?

This proposal really needs clarifying. The whole future direction of the SL economy hangs on it, yet its is as clear as mud. At least that's how it seems to me.

I'm afraid that I'm the one that is confused, now. You've been arguing this entire time that you believe that the Lindens need to act to stabilize the economy, but now you're suddenly arguing that the Lindens need to destabilize the economy to prevent the monopolization of the economy by a few individuals. It doesn't make any sense from a economic point of view. Artificially controlling the price of land, which is ultimately what this will accomplish, is exactly the remedy for the kind of fluctuations which you've been vehemently arguing against.

It may ruin the fun for a couple of small-time speculators and hustlers, but it should be of widespread benefit to the rest of SL. At this stage in SL development, land must cease to be a scarce commodity or we risk alienating new users and halting the growth of the world. I don't believe that's a wise move, and I view these new auction rules as a strong step in ensuring that the greed and avarice of a few individuals does not stand in the way of the community prospering. Quite simply, strong price controls promote high volume of land sales by reducing the profit margins. The stalemate situation which you've forseen makes little sense, as any would-be land baron who attempts to sell the land for too much risks alienating his customers, who can just go to the auction and buy their own sim at the same wholesale rate.

No, instead you wish to regulate availabilty.... suppy , demand, all that rot.

Now when land prices were high, and supply was low, it was all 'free market , let the free market dictate the price!'

Now the price is low it's 'No no, this is terrible, think of the newbs'

Although how high priced land helps the newbs is totally beyond me...

Or better still 'think of the disabled people who may or may not be playing secondlife'

Siggy.

/me grabs Siggy's hand


Everybody sing!


There comes a time
When we head a certain call
When the world must come together as one
There are people dying
And it's time to lend a hand to life
The greatest gift of all

We can't go on
Pretneding day by day
That someone, somewhere will soon make a change
We are all a part of
God's great big family
And the truth, you know love is all we need

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

Send them your heart
So they'll know that someone cares
And their lives will be stronger and free
As God has shown us by turning stone to bread
So we all must lend a helping hand

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

When you're down and out
There seems no hope at all
But if you just believe
There's no way we can fall
Well, well, well, well, let us realize
That a change will only come
When we stand together as one

[Chorus]
We are the world
We are the children
We are the ones who make a brighter day
So let's start giving
There's a choice we're making
We're saving our own lives
It's true we'll make a better day
Just you and me

/me snorts with porcine indignation

Say, now. I resent that!

Ellie

Combined with the brilliantly innovative step of persuading the "renter" to reimburse your entire land purchase price, and obligating him to find a substitute to take his place if he leaves. Despite his complete lack of any real ownership rights or enforceable contract, and his need for absolute obedience to his landlord, who can run off with the cash at any moment, with no violation even of the TOS. It shows us just how lawless and anarchic and ugly many people must think mainland SL is, that they find this so attractive. Personally the mainland offends me less, and attracts me more, each month.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ellie, this may occur on some islands but not on Hiro Queso's. I sold my land to rent from him and if I decide tomorrow that I no longer wish to do so, I inform Hiro and leave the island that day. No having to find someone to take over my bit of land. I love the island and have no plans to return to the mainland and purchase land. The island has a no malls or clubs or events policy and that is perfect as far as I am concerned.

As for you panic selling your land, I don't understand your logic. If you hold onto it for a while, prices will rise again, as they have in the past, but obviously that is your choice.

Alexa

The first bid starts a 48-hour "shot clock", and whoever enters the high bid by the end of that time, wins the auction. Here is the stranscript of Philip's Town Hall on the subject.

Indeed. I was thinking as much last night when I was posting.

Thankyou Liberty. The forum keyword search facility is recently not working for me, which is why I have been unable to dig this out for myself. Now I understand what is proposed, I need to go away and think. About why there would ever be a second bid if there are many of these auctions sitting waiting to be triggered, and whether in effect this is almost the same as a $1000 fixed price.

For all the people thinking me inconsistent, I'm not. I am NOT asking for prices not to drop. I am asking for them to be STABILIZED. At what level is another matter.

Its naive to think I am asking for some entirely new LL interference. They can't help interfering. Looks like now they have newly decided to fix the Goddam wholesale price, for heavens sake. What sort of interference is that ? Will they manipulate that to stabilise the economy ? Why did they pledge to work for stability, so vital for business growth in RL, if they now decide it doesn't matter ?

I think fixing the wholesale price of all land will provide some stability, as controlling the supply did before. It is an alternative method. Maybe it will work. But its effect on the exchange rate will be more indirect, and that may start fluctuating more. If the control is passive, boom and bust cycles are likely to occur.

Where are all the economics PHD's here ? Can someone properly analyse the likely outcomes for us? I'm a mere mathematician.

Absolutely, Alexa. Hiro's business is pure rental and none of my warnings or restrictions or criticisms apply. My concern is when the renter re-imburses the landlord for buying the sim, ie when he buys a lease, and yet never actually owns the land, or has any rights to any protection, despite this capital investment. LL have pointed out they will not interfere or punish a fraudulent landlord, and many people don't seem to realise this. Someone, sooner or later, will take advantage of this unless it is changed.

So yes. Hiro's business I totally approve as safe and straightforward for the customer. If I disinvest from land myself, that is probably where I will go. I don't understand how he can do it without charging lots more than the LandLeasers, who get their purchase money back (and more? - I haven't checked) as soon as a renter appears.

Time I updated my Land Business spreadsheet. (Which, incidentally, taught me not to get involved).

I too rent from Hiro Queso, it is the best decision I have made in SL. I have bought land in the past, had a wonderful home built (it was in a fairly new sim) and before I knew it I had a sex club on one side of my land and a dungeon on the other...don't get me wrong, I love the diversity of SL! But OMG! the lag, I couldn't even invite friends over!

I don't profess to understand about land economy, but I now live on a wonderful little island...no clubs, malls..The only real rule is no posting of events, which I can handle via invitations to friends. I didn't have to buy the island with Lindens or USD and pay tier..all I do is pay my tier to Hiro...I am allowed to create just as if I owned the island, no restrictions.

Hiro Queso is very fair, caring landlord...and as long as he rents islands I will be his tenant! And if he makes a profit doing this, KUDOS to him.

I am not concerned.

Although, I do find it fascinating that there seem to be two polar-opposite styles of 'gameplay' here that are at odds. Neither side seems to be capable of empathizing with the other.

And it ain't the first time.

Maybe we'll have a civil war and split into two grids..... or not

No, it's not fair that one poor guy had to pay outrageous prices because he bought before the prices dropped. The prices should have been rock bottom to begin with. Hopefully the land market will crumble and everyone getting into the game in the future will be able to easily get as much land as they want at affordable prices.

Or, everyone can afford a good chunk of land and the future market lies with products and services, not land speculation.

It is very troublesome when you do marketing and advertise something as "investment" and then let it devalue.

Now I meet people at regular basis who are very unhappy with Linden Lab. They bought land a while ago and, for whatever reason, need to sell it now. They realize they lost hundreds of US$ just for playing one game for two months. I heared quite a few comments that I better not quote here

Some people left Second Life or decided not to buy land anymore after "being burned once"

This weekend I just liquidated yet another huge land baron: 400000 sqm of land that had been sitting priced outside market is now flooding in, increasing land for sale by 15% within just a few days.