Imagi Nation?

Who is going to pay for all of this? All the artists? Is there someone who is going to front a few hundred thousand for this new grid? And when the problems of the old grid (people) follow you to the new grid. What happens thens? Pack up and move again? When you try to run from your problems (and I feel this problem is a lack of imagination, motivation and an inablility to work well with others. Yes Claire, I know how shitty you treated Vindi), they jump in your bags and go with you.

I've asked this several times. I haven't got an answer yet.

I would like to ask those who are for this, are you then for me being able to demand a grid for myself and those who share my philosophy? Where does it end?

I would like to ask Catherine, why, when I asked why you can't just get like-minded people together and create a mini grid (continent) of your own, you told me that would be like being in "prison", when your separate grid idea is MUCH more isolated than any continent on the existing grid could ever be?

Why are we who are questioning this, the bad guys? You do realize that the creation of another grid and forums will pull already taxed SL staff away form the main grid? It will also pull dollars and time away from bug fixing and improvements.

How will you insure that there is no commercialization of any kind?

Before you slam me for simply asking questions, realize that this idea of yours will lessen the overall quality of SL for everyone. Therefore, we have a right to question, as much of a right as you have to question LL's decisions. Not to mention, it sets a precedent. Then you will undoubtedly have other groups screaming "unfair", they have heir own grid! You think people cried "unfair" when LL supplied some land for Neualtenberg? Hah.

Go make a proposition, and vote for it. Please quit blaming your problems on some imaginary "collective". Your issues are with LL, and the direction they want to see SL go.

I have an idea, let's just let every group of unhappy customers have their own grid! Then we can rename the main grid "Scapegoat Island".

Psst, Eboni and Nolan. Cathrine said:

"I asked if it were possible to make a separate grid like they have for the kiddie grid. I seriously doubt it takes millions of dollars to do so. As the kiddie grid is on the main grid but for the most part ppl don’t even know its there. I think its more a kin to a large continent constructed of many estate sims that continent is not visible to the rest of SL. Do the same for this new Continent that’s all I am asking. Just give ppl a real choice and let them decide which part of sl they want to play. As with the kiddie grid when an AV turns 18 all of their money and inventory is moved to the main grid. So moving those off that want to go would be no more taxing on the existing system in place."

Made sense to me. And in any case, it was an answer to your question.

coco

Pssst. No it wasn't. It does not answer my financing and staffing concerns. Those are at the forefront in my mind. You can't just move someone's main grid land.

Who said it would be millions of dollars? Me thinks the exaggeration station is broadcasting again. I said 10s of 1000s, which it will, new servers are 1K apiece.

More to the point - this can be done, and already has been done in the form private ventures. People screamed bloody murder over Nberg getting 1/4 of a sime - how do you think an entire cluster of sims will go over? Who is going to pay the set up costs?

Nolan; I will continue to pay my same fees on the new contient as I am sure others will also. It will sustain it's self just as the main grid does and just as the kiddie grid will.

I am not asking that we be handed this grid for free.
Cat

Edit sorry missed this valid point:

you asked "How will you insure that there is no commercialization of any kind?"

It would be writtien in the TOS for that grid, either ppl accept it or they dont go there. I do not imagine it would be hard to ask during the set up process which grid ppl would like to live on and give them choices.

Sorry I didn't reply sooner; I love what you have to say here and yes Clair and I are seriously considering this option now.

Cat

What about those who don't own full sims and want this grid? Who will pay the upfront costs for the sims that they need to live in? or are they all going to live in yours?

I must say, I am glad to see that you are moving towards what some of us suggested earlier in this thread - using your own private sims.

Now, if you would please answer this question that I have asked it several times.

Do you think that my friends and I should also be able to splinter off (LL aided and endorsed) because we share a common philosophy? Do you realize that people are going to scream favoritism?

When you consider this, bear in mind that I have never received a developer incentive, never been anywhere even remotely near the top of any leader board, I am a throwback myself, I smoke weed and make things. It's just that to be able to enjoy the things I like, I realize that there is a trade off. I can turn the radio off in preferences, it doesn't come back on again when I go to another parcel, it's disabled until I go back into prefs and switch it back.

If I find heavy load, spammy areas, that are commercial traps, I simply make a mental note and avoid it in the future. it's not as difficult as you're trying to make it out to be.

OK, then, I will answer the question.

The new grid - not that I'm necessarily for it, but just to answer the question - the new grid would be funded the same way all other grids are funded everywhere: Through subscriber fees.

And, I imagine, those fees would still be tied to the amount of land used.

This model works for every game out there.

coco

I'm asking the world Nolan. If you have an idea for a new contient for the way you feel sl should be and you have a firey passion in your belly for it, well ask the world too.

This is not about me or my friends this is about the world and its future. You have made the main grid your home, your comfortable there. Other ppl have different ideas of what SL could be, I share their thoughts. If that makes these nice folks my new friends, well right on when we get there I will host the first party

Cat

Ok, no problem whatsoever. They are going to plunk down the server fees up front - that is what I suggested last night, and was told that would be like being in "prison", Apparently, this has been rethought. But don't expect people to just shrug it off if you think that LL should buy the servers upfront. It needs to be just like it is for everyone else now under the new pricing structure.

You don't need propositions or Linden support, so have at it. I wish you all the best of luck, sincerely.

Well they can move mine and Clairs to get the ball rolling thats nearly 400 bucksa month. right there We already bought the servers, just move em

Cat

Difference


LL decided to make the Teen Grid

Catherine is requesting a redundant grid for something that could be created here, and may already exist on private islands. Since she is requesting it, is she going to pay for it? All those servers have to come from somewhere.

I'd like to see the option to choose a direction when creating an account. Choose the secondlife WITH money, or the secondlife with NO money.

We'll make a selection and be stuck on the 'continent' of our choosing with that particular account. The continent will begin just as the mainland has begun, LL will set out 2-3 sims at their cost (an investiment). Then, people will sign up. Maybe there's no lifetime account option, since the lifetime is primarily available as an economy-driver. So, everyone who chooses the no-money lifestyle is paying a monthly/yearly subscription. The subscription includes a parcel of land, which can be enlarged by paying higher fees. As more people sign-up for this lifestyle, LL installs more sims. The subscription/tier fees pay for the continent, just as subscription/tier fees pay for the SL we have today.

Is it possible for LL to make this investment in hopes that there are lots and lots of people who would be interested in such a non-commercial continent. Instead of frustrated people turning away from SL, they would turn to this new continent instead. And, more than likely, these people would have an alt subscription to the commercial continent as well, so they can have the best of both worlds depending on their mood. It would be good business for SL.

I dont feel its redundant, I feel its necessary as do others.. I am sorry you missed all the posts that expressed that in great detail. I would be happy to keep paying for the server I already purchased as would Clair. Would I invest more? Maybe I would.

Just for shits and grins if this does pass those interested can live on our servers till they find a place of their own if that is in fact what your asking me to do. Of course I would let them.

Cat

I'd like to point out that what Cat is proposing is easily doable. LL does not even have to do any coding beyond setting the status of the islands in this proposed continent and assigning a new class of accounts. They've already got the tools in place for educational groups and the teen grid.

I'd really love to see a whole continent put together as a sort of artist's colony, and you could simply make a rule that items are not to be placed for sale or advertised in any way. If the number of island owners was kept under half a dozen or so, this might catch on and be viable. The reality of it is, though, you would need to come up with a way of paying for it. Here's an alternative I'd love to see tried:

Monthly membership dues for prims used regardless of land size. Now that we can get an accounting of who owns what prims on a parcel, it's possible to track prim use per person. You could set up an Artist's Colony group with different levels of membership based on the number of prims a person wants to use. Once someone has joined the group, they get access to the whole continent and can squat wherever and negotiate with others about how much clear space they need to work in. This way if one person loves building huge bridges or something but doesn't use a lot of prims, they don't need to own the whole sim. They can trade space with people who spend all their time making jewelry or hair or furniture.

If someone refuses to pay their monthly fee you simply return their items and remove them from the access group.

I really think something like this could work without having to limit a person's ability to visit other parts of SL.

Cat, if it isn't clear from this I find this idea of yours quite exciting.

Why not group together 10 private sims and do it here? Why make all the extra work and overhead? Why should Linden Lab sponsor this above and beyond what they have done?




I want a new grid for fat avies. No one with a body fat slider under 75 allowed. Actually the minimum slider fvalue will be locked at 75, with bellys and love handles starting at 50.


Everyone is going to want to special grid. Just use the grid you have, you can do anything you want on it if your imagination is not limited and your pockets are deep enough.

Eboni please read the posts in full. We have gone over that in great detail already.

thanks

Cat

Nolan, nothing has "been rethought. " This isn't my idea. I'm not asking for it at all, I don't have anything to do with it. I'm not speaking for Catherine, I'm just saying this is how they could do it.

If there was some other grid vision, they could just put it out like they did the teen grid and proceed from there. Like they did it in the first place. Paid for by subscriber fees.

TSO did it with the "hard core economy" city, and the "test city," and a bunch of people wanted the "sandbox" city, too, but there wasn't enough TSO left by then to go around.

So if they can have the regular grid, and the teen grid, there is no reason why they couldn't have another grid of a different kind, if they thought enough people wanted it.

coco

Sounds a lot like TSO with different cities. It seems like it would be a lot of work. For instance how would they police people buying and selling. Or would there be absolutely no money? How would they charge for uploading textures and stuff?

When there's a update, they would have to make two versions and chase down bugs for each one? Plus maintain forums for each one.

When a new account is created, how would a new person understand enough to choose between the two. If they chose the wrong one, and then decided later they really wanted the other, could they transfer or would they have to make a new account?

I think a lot of research would have to go into this. Ooh we could have a poll to see who would be interested. Oh but then probably most of the people interested probably don't read the boards.

Yeah, those are some valid considerations. If money exists, certainly things can be bought and sold, even without the fancy stuff that makes it easy.

coco

Basically that is correct. The Teen Grid (get the name right, teens don't want to be called 'kids' is just a big estate that connects to the same asset system and database as the rest of SL.

I believe the feature set of SL is moving toward a state where the ImagiNation as Catherine envisions it would be possible... sorta. Eventually it should be possible for one person, or a group of poeple, to purchase a sub continent and therein voluntarily seclude themselves such that no one in the group could access the main grid nor could anyone from the main grid access the invisible continent.

The "sorta" part is... in order to enforce 'creative art only no commercialism' some person, or commitee, would have to be able to eject certain individuals for violating the sub continent theme, and that power could only come from the estate owner, and perhaps his/her delegates. In other words, ImagiNation couldn't be a sub-grid where people could control their own land... they would have to lease it from the estate owner. But then, that is the only way no commercialism could be enforced anyway.

Also... you couldn't discard the L$ system. It would be necessary for uploading textures and other assets, however it might be possible to contrive a system, or a culture where money was given freely to those who needed it. It might be possible for the estate owner to be able to take any surplus L$ to the mainland to sell for real $ to defray the maintenance costs of the sub-continent... dunno.

The cost for such a sub-continent would be proportional to the price of a private island. The consensus around LL is that such isolated subsets of the grid add less to the value of the SL as a platform than the same size of mainland. But hey, as a niche environment for those who like it... the more power to them.

To tell the truth, we've been approached by a few comercial entities who would like custom virtual environments for private use. As I understand it, our answer is that they will be welcome to buy a private sub contient when that feature set is complete, but we're not interested in implementing custom systems that are completely separate grids (separate assets and database). We've already tried that a couple of times (The San Jose Tech Museum's "Virtual World" is an example) and now prefer to implement a general solution.

Thank you Andrew I realy appreciate your taking the time to not only consider this but to give well presented feedback. After some good rest and thought I will post again on this subject

I'm happy to see Linden Lab took an interest in these idea's and concerns.

Cat

Hey Andrew;

You wrote:
Basically that is correct. The Teen Grid (get the name right, teens don't want to be called 'kids' is just a big estate that connects to the same asset system and database as the rest of SL.
-----------
Good to know I’m basically right in my assumptions of how the grid works. Not to nit pick but the “Teens” aren’t able to read these forums are they? So teen, kiddie, prenoob terms really shouldn’t bother them. Although I will “get it right” in the future
----------
You wrote:
I believe the feature set of SL is moving toward a state where the ImagiNation as Catherine envisions it would be possible... sorta. Eventually it should be possible for one person, or a group of poeple, to purchase a sub continent and therein voluntarily seclude themselves such that no one in the group could access the main grid nor could anyone from the main grid access the invisible continent.
-----------
Well is it possible now it make my Island not visible from the mainland and only allow those on the admit list. Limiting or excluding teleporting is the only obstacle there.
----------
You wrote:
The "sorta" part is... in order to enforce 'creative art only no commercialism' some person, or commitee, would have to be able to eject certain individuals for violating the sub continent theme, and that power could only come from the estate owner, and perhaps his/her delegates. In other words, ImagiNation couldn't be a sub-grid where people could control their own land... they would have to lease it from the estate owner. But then, that is the only way no commercialism could be enforced anyway.
----------
So no separate enforceable TOS, CS. I’m not sure I would “eject” the offender but the commercial goods would be deleted or returned to the rightful owner if a violation was found. I would think the group of citizens would vote on the repeat offenders. Power to the ppl.

--------
You wrote:
Also... you couldn't discard the L$ system. It would be necessary for uploading textures and other assets, however it might be possible to contrive a system, or a culture where money was given freely to those who needed it. It might be possible for the estate owner to be able to take any surplus L$ to the mainland to sell for real $ to defray the maintenance costs of the sub-continent... dunno.
------
Well that makes sense. I don’t speak for all these ppl but IMO if they could all pay their tier fees with player made goods and services I think that would be great. I’m not against the L$. I am against paying a fee to LL to go visit the virtual 3d version of Toyota.com when I already pay my ISP to provide that service and the ability to connect to SL. I see a difference between player commercialism and real life commercialism.
---------
You wrote:

The cost for such a sub-continent would be proportional to the price of a private island. The consensus around LL is that such isolated subsets of the grid add less to the value of the SL as a platform than the same size of mainland. But hey, as a niche environment for those who like it... the more power to them.
------
Why would a subset of residents on an sub grid be valued less by LL than a mainland sim?
------
You wrote:

To tell the truth, we've been approached by a few comercial entities who would like custom virtual environments for private use. As I understand it, our answer is that they will be welcome to buy a private sub contient when that feature set is complete, but we're not interested in implementing custom systems that are completely separate grids (separate assets and database). We've already tried that a couple of times (The San Jose Tech Museum's "Virtual World" is an example) and now prefer to implement a general solution.
---------
So what I hear you saying is;

LL has most of these tools in place already. Except the “feature set” to control I take it Teleporting issues above. Anyone who wishes to purchase a sub grid would be welcome but would be viewed as less valued by LL than the main grid. In the end LL is happy with the general solution already in place.

----------
How do I personally feel about this? Honestly I think LL is making a huge mistake. There appears to be a need which you recognize and I thank you for that. With that said I am really bothered knowing that from the get go we would be valued less., but thank you for your honestly. At least I won’t be fighting for a a cause that was lost before it began. Thank you for not wasting any more of my valuable time letting me fight for the rights of those that feel there is an imbalance between the artist side of SL and commercialism.

Have a nice day;

Cat

....and then the dream died. The littest Elf awoke and realized it was all just a dream, oh but what a beautiful dream it was.

I've been following this thread because I think your idea's interesting Catherine. However, I'm not sure complete isolationism is the way to go. I like being in a store or club occasionally, but likewise I get tired of that and like to see the artistic and whimsical side of SL too. Having them all mashed together is sometimes grating on the nerves.

The reason I de-lurked was to offer up an observation. You felt that Andrew's words:

To mean that a sub-grid of people would be less valuable to LL than the main grid. I don't feel like that was the intent behind his words. I think he may have meant that isolating yourselves would actually decrease the value of the main grid as a whole, because the people there would not get the benefit of what the people in your grid were doing.

To see the other side of the coin, what about the wonderful artists that sell their creations to help fund their second life? How would they manage on the artist grid? A lot of talent would be left behind in the main grid, and their works wouldn't add to the artist grid's beauty.

Personally, what I'd really like to see is a new continent created by the users that focused on art, education and community. I'd like to see the continent zoned so that the Libraries are beside the schools and museums. I'd like the artists to be isolated on a few sims with their own sandboxes and then areas to more permanently display their completed works. I'd like to see arenas for debate and events and areas where people could just gather comfortably to socialize. I'd like a range of sims built for housing that run in a line, from the mundane suburbs, to the completely whimsical floating castles. (and a middle ground for those of us who like to experiment with both).

Finally while I'm dreaming, I'd even like to have a few sims that were dedicated to the selling of merchandise. I'm not totally opposed to making a few $L, and the people who support the above need a way to recoup their expenditures. Academics need grants, artists need sponsors, so selling our wares to finance such a continent I don't think would be too objectionable.