Imagi Nation?

Catherine, I am asking you where you expect the money to come from to make an entirely seperate grid. So far you haven't answered. Perhaps you haven't thought about it yet. I wouldn't be suprised.

Surely, if you're going to ask for a seperate grid, I have the right to question whether or not the grid I live on is going to be suffer financially, or lose some of it's Linden presence because of your grid, don't I?

I have a right to question where you think the money should come from to fund this new grid, no?

LL isn't exactly independently, finacially viable yet. They can't just toss out another grid when a couple of people get all wound up about something. What would the venture capitalists who are funding SL think? What would the other customers think? Talk about FIC!

Ultimately, LL has to prove to these VC folks that they are viable. Catering to special interests won't help to that end.

So that I have this right, let me state what I think you are proposing.

You want a completely separate grid.

Does this mean that only you and those you call "like-minded people" get the keys to the gates? Can I come visit?

You want completely separate forums. Does this mean you get to exclude whoever you don't like?

Sounds a bit FIC-ish to me.

Catherine gets to give her ideas of the way she'd like to see the game go. That's never equivalent to complaining, or necessarily curable by suggestions of, "Well, why don't you do it then."

Plus it would be funny if after all the thousands of reasons given why hers or any idea sucks, the Lindens actually turned around and did it. Not so out of the question as one would gather listening to responses. After all, I listened to dozens of passionate reasons why LL couldn't and shouldn't solicit all the players for pictures to rotate on the forum pages - until someone pointed out that they had done exactly that last November.

My opinion: I don't think it's so much the commercialism per se as it is, what else is there to do? Nothing. Everybody and his dog are busy making things and trying to sell them to each other in a glutted market.

Now that's fun, making things, but it does make for just a whole lot of stuff being made, in the absence of very little else productive to do. And virtually all of us love shopping for this stuff, too - but there is only so much a person can buy and use, no matter how vast the selection.

Well, there's also buying and selling land. Which is, I believe it is safe to conclude from trying to read and digest all the ins and outs of it, will basically become a game only for those with a lot of rlmoney to invest in it in a big way.

The problem with everything going so commercial is there will be little left of the wonder. With Spitooney closing down, and fun displays like Touchstone Fair being harder and harder to put on, how can we expect people to keep pouring hundreds of their own personal real life dollars into something just to delight the rest of us? (And of course, get a lot of personal satisfactiion out of it, too.) Something they will not make a profit on, or even break even on. Even spend lots of money to do, and now, it looks like, be expected to spend more. Entertainers don't even receive the pittance stipend they used to get for these and other events.

We are expected to provide all this content and entertainment value in a game which provides little entertainment, beyond the tools to make things, yet there's little incentive for anyone to do it. There is mainly incentive for making things. And a lot of the value of doing that is illusory, too. Sure, a number of people will do well, but that number does not a happy populace make. Everyone likes to feel they are productive somehow.

(And as you all know I believe by now, "Well, if it's good enough, just charge for it" does not work in an entertainment medium, probably because people figure they have already payed plenty just to get in; i.e., their subscription fee. How many amusement parks do you know of still in existance that charge separately for each ride? Only state fairs, really.)

And what about the entertainers? What about all the other things people do in games? Without any incentive for players to provide them, fewer and fewer of them will be provided. What support entertainment used to get has been yanked out from under them, and as for the big events and displays like Touchstone Fair, that is only becoming more expensive.

So people sit and build things. That's fun, yes. And we are all inspired by watching something like the Tinies burst onto the scene and become a huge hit. It's exciting to see that! And it is providing us rich entertainment, too. But there needs to be more, for more people to do.

There needs to be more of a balance. I looked around and pretty quickly figured out the only thing for me to do in the game - besides looking at other people's builds, which few people feel like doing all the time - is to build things, interspersed with the occasional Bingo, or trivia or word game with really smart competitors.

So, as time goes by, particularly with the way things are in the forums, I become more and more like a friend who wanted me to join this game in the first place. I got here - hey, where's the entertainment? How do you make money? Then I finally figured out that my best happiness would come from the same thing as his best happiness has. All in all, I'm pretty happy with making things all the time. I don't view this as a game anymore, really, or much of a social outlet, but more like a hobby done in public. Fortunately, I like the hobby, and the public.

But there are too many people - and would be in any society - to expect everyone to be happy sitting around making things, particularly when there is already way too much stuff to buy.

All that making stuff, you know, that's a job really. I know you all know this because of all the time you keep saying, "We worked so hard for our success." And maybe you enjoy that, and maybe I enjoy that, but not everyone does. As it becomes more expensive just for the privilege of sitting around making things, and as the product market becomes ever more glutted, fewer players will be satisfied with the SL product.

With so much potential - for adventuring (ruined by bounce scripts), for creating wonderful builds just for the creativity of it, for entertainment, for so many other neato keeno things - for all of it to be virtually tossed aside in favor of a simulation of real life work and economy is kind of dismal. And needn't be. I happen to like working and creating. But really, an entertainment medium that offers little more than a second job? It's not enough. Economy is worshiped above all else, and that's a mistake - particularly in a game which offers all the tools to make whatever you like. If you can afford to.

Y'all kept telling me to "open my mind" when I first joined the game. But after several months, it seems to me that those who do think outside the box in any way keep running up against all the apologists for the way things are, and presumably MUST be. Well, you know, that could change. What then? Does the new thing, the new system, the new balance, then magically become the way things all of a sudden must be? Complete with all the explanations about how it must be that way and any other idea or line of thinking sucks?

I'm glad I spent so much time on the forums today. (tonight, yesterday, whatever.) Turns out my husband told me tonight his classes are over for the summer, and he is going to be UNDERFOOT until school (he's a teacher) starts in the fall. So it's a good thing I got a whole lot of forum babbling in today, for tomorrow the cat will be around full-time and this mouse can't play nearly as much. Hopefully, I got a lot of it out of my system, lol.

coco

Yes, she does, no one is trying to stop her, not that they could if they tried. I am simply asking where the resources are going to come from, especially when the main grid still has bugs, among other issues.

It wouldn't be funny, it would be a financial mistake of epic proportions.

I would point out that no one stated her idea "sucks". Here we go with the sympathy hook baited with exaggeration minnows again. Kindly either quote people, or refrain from putting words in their mouths. Please.

I don't like telehub lag cities, I don't like clubs, I don't like aggressive security scripts; can I get my own grid too?

That's probably not a very good example, Cat, as they aren't charging us for thier 'product'. Seems to me, they would fall more inline with your 'creative' types and less so in the 'commercial' types. True, they might offer other products for sale IRL, but that's no different than anyone who plays SL and owns thier own RL business.

I'm curious Cat - do you sell your Toyz, etc. or are they free?

Wasn't Neualtenburg an attempt at an artists' society?

Catharine, Flip and I agree: it will be a HOOT to meet you in 3 weeks!

I'll come with ya, Cat!

It'll just be you and me, reminiscing about the 'good old days' before money was money and people created for fun not profit

I must bore people to death with my oldbie elitist 'SL is not what it used to be' complaints. But I'm serious - when I found Second Life I truly believed I'd found everything I was looking for!
And then GOM came along, and money wasn't play money any more, and the rest is history. Literally, for me, since I don't play any more.

Anyway, I'll go with Imagi Nation, too. It's better than my idea; I was just gonna call it FIC-SL.

She wants a separate grid and forums Hiro. I had mentioned that she could use the two sims her and Claire have, but apparently that with make them "prisoners".

Why not just buy private sims and not allow money transactions, limit it to a list of people?

Then use a private 3rd party site for forums?

The Imagine Group has a sim called ImagineNation currently under construction.

I suggested that. I was told that would make her a prisoner. She said she didn't want a continent on our grid.

Apparently, the only solution, is for LL to spend tens of thousands of dollars that they don't have, on a new, commercial free grid.

Catherine, no self-respecting metaverse will ever want, let alone be able to, keep out "RL", commercial interests, and capitalism. You're looking for a "game", a fantasy world.
You should learn a bit from history. Someone once said, "Capitalism is the worse system ever invented, with the exception of everything else"
Free enterprise is an extremely liberating thing. All the people who have ever lived under a different, non-free system (like fascism or communism), can tell you that it was far worse.
In eastern europe, there was only ever one brand of anything, and it was usually terribly crappy.
The present 2D metaverse-wannabe is the world wide web. It was once a barren place where a few crazy university students made crappy web pages about random things. It only started getting interesting, complex content when corporations arrived.
You see, cat, it takes money to survive, and it takes time to make money. If you can make a living off of SL work, then you will be able to fully devote your time to developing quality content, instead of whatever crappy "work of art" you can bang together in your spare time.
See this article on the history wiki:
http://history.secondserver.net/index.php/DEMO_Conference
This is from 2001, before Beta, before Alpha, before Steller or anyone else had ever seen this world.
SL has been designed from the beginning with a strong emphasis on consumerism. 5% build it, 100% enjoy it. Never has anyone said a damn thing about this being some hippy world, artist's colony, or some kind of commune.
The good thing is, as the world grows larger, it's increasingly easier to isolate yourself from it. I have no idea what the heck is going on anywhere. I don't know anyone, and neither do I care. I know the few people who employ me, the few people I hang out with, and that's all I need, really... I can't remember the last time I set foot in a store. There are no stores anywhere near me, no billboards, nothing. I don't get in the way of the world and it doesn't get in mine.
You can set any private island invisible and restrict access to a group. You already have one, no? Then do it. Groups can have their own private forum here too.

It's late and I need to digest all these comments before posting a reply.

Please understand

Cat

That's my fault - I undoubtedly threw you off by agreeing with you. I hope you get over the shock soon

It had to happen sometime!

Would you prefer SL to be just a game Catherine? I'm honestly curious, because of the history of your expressed desires about what you would like to see happen with SL. And I have loved a lot of your ideas, I just also felt they could go side by side with other ideas. But that is because SL *is* a platform who's goal is to be the future internet. It won't look much at all like it looks now when that day comes. But there are artists on the internet. They co-exist side by side with business on the internet. Yet if I *just* wanted to visit the artists sites I can! Same within SL now and in the future probably even more so.

But there is no way to reach that goal without bringing reality in as well. Otherwise, it is just a game.

Not just an attempt. Neualtenburg is "a community of artistic, ambitious, talented individuals who want to explore the limits of architecture, culture, and politics in Second Life. " It is still small in group size, but continues to grow and do well even after all these months. But it has the politics side in it, which though you don't have to be a politician to live there, it does throw some people off the idea (though some change their minds after reading more). I've always thought Catherine would enjoy being in the project though. But I think the "G" word got thrown around too much. hehe

There's a place where you can have nearly unlimited land, prims, where there is no built-in currency system and where you will never have to pay more than the standard subscription fee. It's called Active Worlds and while it is still around, it has mostly proved to be a failure

ImagiNation was a 'virtual world' in the 80's. It was a very cool place way ahead of it's time.

There was a bar area called Larry Land, a role playing area - Yserbius, a general game area with Backgammon, cards, golf etc. A kids area...

AT&T bought it out basically so the could start using the catch phrase with 'ImagiNation' in it. They promised improvements and expansions, did some lengthy beta testing - then closed it.

I agree with you and Catherine.

I would love to move to Kotex Island and reenact civil war battles while drinking s'more flavored schnaps, great idea!

Where do I sign up?

I would also like to express (qualified) agreement here and support Catherine since everyone is jumping all over her quite madly.

This is essentially an innocuous and positive idea that would not affect anyone who is not interested in doing it. I dont see the point in being so negative about it or why everyone is so quick to disaprove.

Lots of people dont like the commercialisation of SL, lots of people came here just to have fun and be creative and lots don't want to do it in an environment of advertisements and "sales." I thought this was what the Sandboxes were at first, like being back at Art School. But even there commercialism creeps in.

I would only argue that Catherines conception is a little too close to the regular grid for me.

IMO this hypothetical "artists" grid should not be concerned with buying and selling at all. Therefore I would impose a rule something like... "everythign you make here is copyable, modifyable and cannot be sold." period.

I would envision a grid somethig like a big big sandbox, but still rather small in comparison to the regular grid.

For those who think this is a "waste" of resources, it is the efficient use of resources that is important. If there is a need for it, and people use it, then it canot be a "waste" of resources by definition. Such a grid might also serve the same purpose as the regular sandboxes and therefore it could be more of a reallocation of resources than a request for more.

edit "cannot be sold" is probably the wrong way to say it. I mean they can be given away but not sold.


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<<I think some of the "commercialism will ruin SL" is very reminiscent of the "commercialism will ruin the internet" debate of the early 90's. >>

Well, didn't it?

This is so true.

But there are those of us that think that commercialism *did* ruin the Internet.

On the Internet itself, the only way to avoid the "ruined" part (90% plus), is to hide in your own commercial free Intranet. Sort of like buying a private sim, which is pretty much the only way to get some peace in SL.

The problem I have is I am not rich either in SL or RL.

Ironically, it seems that avoiding the commercialisation of SL involves being such a rich captialist type person that you can afford your own sim.

Yet these are the folks that have no problem with the commercialisation in the first place!

I have to agree with Cat on this one but I see both sides of the issue. Unfortunately, money makes the world go round and the scent of Linden Dollars in the water will ultimately bring RL sponsorship and commercialism into SL once the population size makes it an attractive advertising venue.

I love the idea of a hippy, artist commune, in fact that's what I signed up for. However, I also think of SL as the ultimate tool for creative expression and as such, someone else's creative expression will be different than my creative expression. I will admit this is little comfort when a black box tringo palace moves into the neighborhood.

The only answer that I see is for like-minded people to band together to buy up sims. A whole continent would be amazing.... Imagine Numbakulla next to Seacliff next to Sanctum next to Gypsy Moon next to Teledor and you could fly between them? The more people band together to buy in the same sim and control their environment, the more you will see commercial areas clustering together so you can avoid them if you want.

I will ask this again, since you did not answer it originally. What is standing in your way from doing that now, Catherine? What prevents you from playing SL the way you want to play. You own a private island, you can play there all day long, make it whatever you want, build whatever you want, and never spend a dime on anything else in SL from anyone else. What is standing in your way that there needs to be a separate grid for? No clubs? No tringo? No selling anything at all? What is it that you want?

A hippie grid? LOL! Free pot and volkswagons? Kick ass!