Open Letter

The snowballing of this thread into nothing but name-calling and hurtful comments is a strong reinforcement as to why I don't normally post and why I am scared to do so even the times I've wanted to. My apologies to all that found themselves sucked into flame wars with each other. Thank you also for the reminder. I'll be in off-topic being silly if you need me.

I hope this thread gets locked soon.

I want to know who dictated that aggression is an evil thing, and what group of soccer moms made sure we were all spoon-fed this nonsense at so tender an age that we now accept it as holy truth.

When did standing up for yourself become aggressive behavior? Or pointing out the holes in another's logic, or even pointing out thinly veiled words of cruelty...

AND WHEN DID ENABRAN MAKE A CUBAN, AND WHY WASN'T I OVERNIGHTED ONE?


Happy Fourth, y'all. Let freedom ring. And tolerance, as opposed to self-righteousness.


*slips back into the role of quiet, cotton-candy headed designer-type*

Did that include me, I'm sorry if I keep getting dense in this issue. If I have done anything like what you describe, I apologize. I keep trying to be positive and I keep thinking maybe I'm trying. But when the blanket statements are made, I can't help but think I've failed somehow.

"To tell you the truth, I don't even know what this thread is about. I saw that people kept referencing me while airing their personal grievances (sometimes with libelous statements), so I thought I'd stop this cycle of forum abuse by asking folks to email me personally. So far no one has taken me up on that offer. I am very serious about it. I think we all have better things to do than be emotional nursemaids for a rag-tag group of forum ne'er-do-wells."

Dang, Ulrika, doesn't it ever occur to you WHY people might have these what you call personal grievances?

Do you think they come up out of the blue? How about you slandering them in the first place? Wouldn't you consider that forum abuse? Telling someone they are mentally ill doesn't qualify for abuse? Telling someone they are envious just because they posted their picture after you did doesn't qualify? Or any of a bunch of other instances.

And anyone who doesn't like what you gleefully and gratuitously dish out is a "rag-tag group of forum ne'er-do wells?" And "we" all have better things to do than nursemaid "them"? THEY are us. I am us. We are all us. This forum isn't for a special few. It is for all.

Of course you've been enjoying the tone of the forums lately; you've been pretty much saying whatever you want to in them. But those you've said these things about - like me - haven't been enjoying the forums so much.

Tell ya what, I don't like that. But at the same time, I don't want to criticize you any more. I've done more than enough already for the purpose.

As for mob behavior - which many of you don't seem to grasp - of course it's individuals. But when a bunch of individuals all pile on someone mercilessly, with the intent to paint them as mentally ill, a "professional victim," or any number of bad reputations, then that is mob behavior.

And let's say Catherine is SUCH a horrid person she deserves all this. And so was Prok. How then do you explain me? Am I all that awful, too? And how will you explain the next person? And the next? Whose ideas you don't like.

That's how I know this is an aberration. And I think that those two reforms would cut out a lot of this.

Cracking down on personal attacks, which obviously means an end to responding to personal attacks as well.

And two, getting rid of that rule, which will mean nicer players tend not to use the report button as often, because it does carry such a high penalty if reports result in warnings, while those not so nice will report every last thing willy-nilly.

So what are the mods supposed to do? They read the reports - in more or less a vacuum - and act on them. They don't act on the reports they don't receive.

coco

P.S. April, no, not you, at least not in my book.

*hugs*

I don't think anyone piled on anyone. I thought the questions were valid. If I were to propose such a major change and then exclude a bunch of people, I would expect to thoroughly explain myself. In fact, I would have invited multiple questions.

In my mind, it was the reaction to the questions that were just as out of hand. Cat's not a horrid person, I don't think anyone implied that. It was how everything was treated once questions were asked.

But as I've said before, now is the time to move forward.

There's nothing wrong with not liking ideas. No one is going to love every idea anyone comes up with. I don't think this is a popularity contest but rather a discussion.

P.S. Just to make my stance clear - I don't want anyone to lose their right to post in the forums.

I don't think ANYONE HERE has done anything so horrible as to lose their ability to post. Not me, not Ulrika, not Catherine, not anybody.

And certainly - of COURSE - I wouldn't want to see ANYONE lose their game, too, merely because they stated their views as best they could on these forums.

That's why that rule needs to go.

coco

That is my hope. We can open the door to meaningful discussions.

Cat

Trin.. You post whatever you damn well please. There are still some of is that judge posts on an individual basis and don't wait to see what our friends say before we respond. If I agree with you, I'll say so. If I don't agree with you, I'll say that too. I'm not the only one.

It's because people cower before the cliques that they feel they have any power at all, and it's because of that feeling of power that they continue. Probably making up for a shitty high-school experience where they were the pimply faced victim. Personally, I think they need to get the fuck out their high-school mentality and grow up.

As to the other rubbish in this thread.. It's been my experience that you get what you give. I've rarely seen people who stated their facts and opinions in a well thought out, inclusionary way, treated with venom. When you come out of the corner swinging, someone is going to smack you in the gob. That's the way life works. If you're on the offensive, it puts others on the defensive, and no good debate can ever start from that. I've stated plenty of contrary opinions, and I've even disagreed with the cool kids, and I've never faced the kind of persecution so many here claim to feel. Maybe it's because I have that "thicker skin" someone mentioned, or maybe it's because I don't agree to play the victim and set myself up as such.

High school is over for most of us. Stop trying to cast yourselves into the stereotypical roles of Cool kid, Geek, weirdo and bully.

It is as it is. Time to move on. Seriously.

You don't need to worry about it, Coco. Rational discussion of unpopular ideas won't get anyone banned. Even those who spew venom and bile aren't at risk, unless they repeatedly refuse to abide by the rules of rational society. It's not an instantaneous process. One doesn't go from sweet talking to bannination in 0.2 seconds. Our experience with the prime nuisance demonstrates as much.

Fortunately, forums users don't ultimately decide what constitutes a personal attack.

Linden Lab does, and thank the stars.

If you don't like someone's post, or are so "shellshocked" that when people ask earnest questions or make observations, you feel you have to label them as "attacks", use the mute and/or the report button.

Preaching at people, and speaking for their motiviations, obviously isn't going to change this behavior you have such a problem with (yes, it's duly noted that you fought for your friend's "right" to attack SLers, their businesses, and their websites - things LL apparently felt were over the line, especially after numerous warnings and suspensions), so do yourselves a favor and use that mute list, if what some folks have to say bothers you. It will save you a few years of stress and grey hairs.

Either that, or report. I have no sympathy for those who are constantly calling everything a personal attack, yet who will not report or mute people. It indicates to me that they are probably being a bit disingenuous about what they really consider an attack, i.e., grandstanding to prove a point.

Well, I am about done with having my say on this, I guess.

Except I will never agree that I deserve everything that has happened to me since I joined this forum. Not that everyone will necessarily understand this, but - again - I am just an example. I'm not the first, and I won't be the last who has undergone this sort of hazing here. I didn't start off deserving it, but I got it since I started off.

And it doesn't let up for me. It doesn't matter what I post, one of several people will come in to make some snide comment appropos of nothing, or to slander my character. Y'all try to live with that for a while and see if you like it. And I'm not the only one. It's easy to say that we deserved it, or we should just live with it, or whatever. But I came in on these forums with it happening, and it is still happening. Daily.

Personally, I know they don't have one bit of right to do that sort of thing, and it is only a matter of time till some person at least attempts a rl lawsuit for defamation of character and deprival of the enjoyment of the service they pay for as a result.

I don't like it and I don't have to like it. I'm not a regular person everyplace else but here, where all of a sudden I'm some sort of - well take your pick, the list of names just keeps growing longer. "Rag-tag bunch of ne'er-do-wells" I think was the last one.

All that DOESN'T HAVE TO HAPPEN. Reform of forum rules would cut out 95% of it. Do the Lindens care about each individual who plays their game, or don't they?

Nolan, I hear what you are saying, and I understand what you are saying.

And yes, Cienna, I know that the rules are what the rules are. And I know that they shouldn't be this way. And I know they don't have to stay this way. We need forum rules reform.

We need:

1. A clear TOS regarding what is a personal attack, with none of this, "it's ok, but we frown on it" stuff.

2. Removal of the rule that says you can't play the game if you get kicked off the forums. I don't care how unlikely you think that is, it IS going to happen to someone some day. And that someone will not deserve to lose his/her game for it.

Those two above reforms - is there some good reason NOT to institute them?

I leave this thread for the discussion of anyone else who wishes to discuss it. As for forum rules reform, no - I will not leave that behind.

coco

If that someone is so incapable of coexisting with other people and engaging in rational discussion without resorting to vitriol and browbeating, what makes you think they deserve to be in-world? Why would they behave any better in-game?

...

you should look up mob behaviour. i don't think you understand what it means. you keep talking about it but you don't make any sense.

maybe i missed something in the last few months. what happened to you? i'm still really clueless to what you are so particularly a victim of. you seem to twist any discussion towards that topic and i keep getting lost whenever you start claiming offense.

Yes. As you've been told countless, countless times before, in terms that really can't get any simpler. Because many of us don't want the latter, or need it; and because the rules were glaringly and mockingly abused before the rule in question was instituted.

I see your vague opinions and raise you some concrete facts.
Only one out of 287 threads that I started has ever been locked. This wasn't because it was controversial drama, but rather because I accidentally gave away someone's RL gender in a humorous poll.
These are all the threads I started in 2003:
/invalid_link.html
/invalid_link.html
/invalid_link.html

Not a single one of them is about that place.

I have equally never posted anything to state or imply that catherine cotton suffered any form of mental illness and I would like to actively distance myself from anyone who has.
Also, why do *you* waste no time at all in jumping in every thread that *I* happen to post in, lately?

...

Just because someone does not play well with others in these forums, which is a far different environment than SL does not mean that they will behave the same way in SL. If they do (harassing, griefing, etc..) then more power to getting rid of them. However, not handling a group forum is very different than the basically one on one or small group environment we have in SL. You can stay on a sim by yourself and never interact with anyone if you choose not to. I have never met 75% of the people in these forums in SL itself. I think it is overreaching to deny someone access to SL because they are a jackass here. If they are a jackass in SL, then they deserve it.

There are forum guidelines that are not actually TOS violations, but can still result in a warning - and can ultimately affect your access to SL. Yet, we did not agree to these things and they are not in the TOS, they are just a set of "guidelines" posted here. That was a backdoor way of getting in even tighter restrictions on what can be said in and out of SL, and it is lame. They are severely lax on dealing with true griefing in SL - things that should result in someone being banned from SL only result in a slap on the wrist, yet the swift hand of justice will come down when the forums are violated. How does that make any sense?

And many people also feel that tying forum behavior to access to SL is overreaching. I am one of them. As much as I disliked what Prokofy did in these forums, I would not want to see him lose all that he has worked for in SL because of it - or anyone else. Only things being done in SL that violate the TOS we agree to should result in banning from SL.

The boston pops and the fireworks are on right now arn't they lovely

Cat

They certainly are! ::waving my little flag proudly::

You obviously do not know as you continue to act as if it is all just some big mistake. It is not. It is the result of months upon months of disruption and instigation finally taken in hand. I applaud it. You would, were you not so busy playing innocence wounded.... indeed, you do when the topic is anything other than you or your self-proclaimed martyr friend.

You do not know that they 'shouldn't be this way'. You do not know that they 'don't have to stay this way'. You do not speak for anyone but yourself in your belief that there is something 'needed' beyond what exists.

There is nothing you can do or say that is going to magically change the reality that part of existing in the world is learning how to deal with situations that are not completely to your liking. Since you have not yet grasped this, maybe you would spend some time contemplating that insisting you know more and better than everyone around you, or that you somehow hold the key to all peace and harmony likely is not the best way to bring people together in unity.

You see, people do not change the world by speaking about how it should change. People change the world by living as if they world they desire... exists.

Until you finally get a handle on what that means, I'm afraid you're just setting yourself up for failure.