Second Accounts and Ethics

I would agree.

But them buying the First Land from the people who have it, to then resell, I would not consider unethical. Would you agree with that?

coco

P.S. Looks good, Nolan.

I remember back when First Land became automated (i.e. you didn't have to post in the forums requesting it and get a randomly allocated lot), Robin said that there were checks in place to prevent alts from being able to buy First Land. However, a friend of mine told me he was able to buy First Land with his alt (he did so to keep the lot next to his land from going to a random new resident).

I took him at his word, and didn't test the theory until I made my own alt, months later. She did buy First Land herself, mainly because she wanted to move into a new resident area and make new friends that way. She built and lived on it for a long time before selling it to a neighbor, and downgrading to basic. She has her own distinct personality, attends different types of events from the ones that I do, and makes clothing for a living - something I have never done. This, my main AV is me, and she is a roleplayed character.

Problem with trying to prevent alts from buying First Land is that LL cannot distinguish between one person getting an alt with a second credit card, and a second household member getting an account. I know my husband would have been very miffed if he could not have bought First Land, simply because I did first!

I do not feel I did anything unethical with my alt. But then again, I know that I had no profit motive behind my purchase. I wouldn't expect other people to be able to second-guess my motives and if anyone wants to think that I alt-abused for money, then they can do that.

Fact remains, there does not appear to be any mechanism in place for automatically excluding alts on the same credit card from clicking that 'Buy' button on First Land. Originally I thought that perhaps 'Land for the Landless' records were not checked when making a First Land purchase. But Strawbearry's experience blows that theory out of the water.

"Originally I thought that perhaps 'Land for the Landless' records were not checked when making a First Land purchase. But Strawbearry's experience blows that theory out of the water."

What?

coco

Good points, especially about multiple members of one household playing. I guess this is why it really does boil down to individual ethics. For myself, I wouldn't do it.

Lissie,

I don’t think I have ever seen you publicly complain about the lack of first land, at least not recently. I have also never seen you complain about the abdominal way poor newbies are treated by all the rich mean oldbies. I think members of the same household, (although I don't understand why there would be one credit card in a house) should be able to have first land. My issue in this is the fact that Coconut has complained about first land repeatedly in very recent months and positioned herself as an advocate for newbies

Cocoanut snatching some new premium first land for her new alt is a direct contradiction of those previous statements, clear hypocrisy, and worth pointing out. I am surprised she went out of her way to create a new thread for the topic, but ohh well, her choice.

When LL switched from 'Land for the Landless' (manually allocated) to 'First Land' (automatic), it was said that it was not possible to buy First Land with an alt if you had already bought First Land with your first account.

Because it was possible for me, I assumed it was because my first account had bought 'Land for the Landless' before the switch, and the system only checked the new 'First Land' records against the credit card used for the account.

However, I can tell from your start date that coco bought her First Land under the new system, and so it looks like no records are being checked for land bought by other accounts on the same credit card.

Unless your alt account was bought with a second credit card?

Situational ethics. Why does this not surprise?

Coco, you should never have even brought this up. You know that you're usually gonna get blasted regardless of what you do.

Yes, Coco, buying the First Land parcel was wrong. Even if there is little demand now, the land would still have been available for someone else if you hadn't purchased it. You can argue that some other alt would have scammed the land, but that's ultimately a weak argument too. If everyone buys into that argument, First Land becomes as scarce as it was before and we're right back to the same problem.

It's probably best not to keep fueling the flames in this thread, though. You're not going to convince many people that it's alright to take First Land, and it just invites a lot of negativity. Best thing would be to let the thread smolder and die. If you keep fanning the flames by defending yourself, everyone's going to get toasted.

I am saying that there is nothing LEGALLY wrong with taking the perks that come with your paid-for account. And nothing ETHICALLY wrong with taking them if you actually intend to use said account.

For each new account that takes First Land, LL is getting a new account. LL releases First Land in response to the demand from new accounts, I believe.

Presumably, all these new accounts are ACTUAL NEW ACCOUNTS that the individual intends to use in the way accounts are intended to be used.

If I'm going to pay them an extra $10 a month from here on out for my second account, then I see nothing legally, ethically, or practicably (in terms of available new land set aside for new accounts) wrong with actually availing myself of what comes with that account.

I would see something wrong with taking an advantage of a loophole in the system by, say, getting a bunch of accounts in just a get-rich scheme, then dropping them. (And THAT is what I was mad about when Coco was looking.)

Besides, I'm not the only one who thinks this way.

coco

P.S. Different credit card.

Referring to yourself in the third person is creepy as hell...



You had to use a different credit card. Doesn't that tell you something about how the Lindens view First Land looting?

No matter how you refer to it, "she" is still you. You are an established player that had bought First Land in the past. If you wanted to move into a new area, then buy a new piece of land at market value like anyone else. It is taking advantage of a program to get land that is set aside specifically for brand new players.

First land is not a perk of premium accounts. It is a perk for brand new SL residents for their first land purchase, since they generally have limited funds. You are in no way a new resident, even if you create a new account. The stipend and included tier are part of the premium account features - First Land is not. You can act obtuse and refer to yourself in creepy third person terminology and try to split hairs, but it doesn't change that.

I didn't HAVE to use a different credit card. I have heard you can have five accounts on the same credit card.

coco

P.S. I didn't want to move into a new area. I found this land next to the land I had already bought with my other 512, and also had expanded by buying from the girl next door, who moved, and from Garnet.

How do you want me to refer to my alts? Is there some "approved" way of doing it?

And I say, and believed, and still believe, First Land is a perk of premium accounts. It is presented as such. Nowhere does it say you aren't supposed to get First Land with every new account, and they also don't make it impossible to do that.

I wasn't here when they changed the method, which the poster above referred to, and I wasn't here then to hear Robin's plans for how they were going to handle it.

But the way they HAVE handled it is each new account gets a one-time First Land. That's the way it was when I came into the game, and that's the way it still is.

Act obtuse? You mean, by not agreeing with your take on it? Maybe YOU are obtuse. After all, you aren't agreeing with me.

Let's see what the Lindens have to say about it. If they want to say we aren't supposed to do this, then they should put it officially somewhere. If First Land is somehow different from the stipend and ability to purchase land, the sign-on bonus, and have 512 without paying tier, then they should say so clearly.

Otherwise, it is just part of what you are buying when you buy another account, and so using it is in no way unethical or illegal. If First Land is not a part of the premium account features, they should specify that.

As it is, I don't think it could even be considered gaming the system to buy First Land with a new account you fully intend to use as they are intended to be used. And I don't think it was unethical of me to get First Land with my second account, on any count.

Moreover, I would guess that a huge proportion of people who purchase a second account get First Land with it. That would only make sense, since there is nothing telling them not to, and since there is no prior history in my experience of a game ever doing it differently.

coco

P.S. I plan to get a third alt, so I can form a group and we can share the land. Is this supposedly unethical, too?

That's not the way it was and it's not the way it is. The restriction is based on credit cards, not accounts.

However you want to rationalize your theft, though...

Do you mean that if I had used the same credit card, I would not have been able to get First Land?

And I'll thank you kindly not to call me either a thief OR creepy.

coco

Cocoanut,

Just because you have decided that First Land is somehow part of what comes with a premium account doesn't make it so. It is you trying to change the definition to suit what you did. Nowhere in the description of premium accounts does it say anything about First Land. You do encounter an explanation of it under land costs. As far as what is said about First Land, I got this by clicking the LAND link at the top of the page. Notice the bolded part. No matter how you try to explain it away, that is unambiguous. You have owned land before, it does not matter on which account. You are not someone who has never owned land:

First Land

Second Life's "First Land" program allows Residents to purchase their first parcel of land below the current market value. Parcels are 512 square meters and sell for L$1 per meter to those who have never owned land. Please note: First Land plots are subject to availability. A snapshot of the available land can be viewed by:

* Go into SL and click on the Find button
* Select the Land Sales tab
* Select "First Land" from the pull-down menu and hit "Search"
* When you find a plot you like, teleport to it and buy it on the spot

I am not going to continue to go round and round with you, Cocoanut. First Land is very clearly a program to help new players get established in SL. This is very clear from the description of it. It is NOT for an established player like yourself to expand your land holdings at a cheap rate, even if you are keeping it. All of the arguments do not change the simple fact that just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD. The spirit of the First Land program is violated by anyone taking advantage of it, whether it is to quickly profit off of land or get land on the cheap that would otherwise go to a new player.

PS - having three premium accounts is dumb - the land tier discounts are cheaper if you go with one account than multiple ones. For example, the next land tier above 512 adds another 512 for $5 more a month. You are paying 9.95 a month for the same tier.

The way you speak about Strawwhatever and Coco as two separate people is creepy. It is all you.

Well....


It balances out when you get the land for dirt cheap, hold it, transfer it to your other account and tier the new alt down to basic and put the alt in your new group.

I'm on page 3 right now (30 posts per page). And I'm reading this. Remembering. What so many of us fought for. There was a time when new people came in world and there was NO LAND for them to buy. Land was so expensive (this did come around the same time of the first "land barons", and no way to afford it. And so many fought to have something done, to have some pieces of land set to the side so that these new people coming into our world would have a chance to own land and see what it was like. And finally it happend!! The Lindens heard our concerns and agreed.

LAND FOR THE LANDLESS. That was the name of the first phase. And they had to sign up in the forums on a sticky thread at the top of General. Of course, people were always missing it and we were forever pointing them to the top. And yeah it got really frustrating. Even though we loved that these new residents were getting to take advantage of this land that otherwise they would not have, we were getting drowned in requests in the forum.

So the Lindens created a way for new residents to apply in world. And we were all so happy!! Finally!! A a way for new residents to get their land, but without all the hassle of the forums. Thus was born FIRST LAND.

Next phase. Abuse. Blatent. Land Scanners become a constant *again*. Alt upon Alt of a single person snatching up lands. And suddenly, it becomes damn near impossible for a new person to find First Land in our world. Thread upon thread of wondering what is going on, reports, pleas for land, and of course flames came about.

The issue dies and resumes another day. And here we are.


It really has gone on too long. And while the kinks get worked out. I think the best thing to remember, as others have pointed out...

"Just because you *can* do something, doesn't make it right"

The wording on the land page, already quoted, seems clear to me, and refers to one purchase of land at discount rates for a resident. A resident is person, not an account, and once you get your first land one time, that is all that you are entitled to.

The system cannot possibly tell if one person is using a credit card for two accounts or two people are using the same credit card so the system allows a second first land purchase to occur but that doesn't make it an authorized use, just as one can do all sorts of outlawed things with the program but that doesn't make them authorized either.

In the secondlife.com/help wiki at http://secondlife.com/tiki/tiki-index.php?page=How%20do%20I%20find%20land? Lee Linden wrote:

This seems quite clear to me, not worthy of any further debate. The pronoun you refers to a person, not an avatar or account. First Land is a one time in your whole life deal.

But as I interpreted it, "you" means "that account." As it does in all other games.

And Cristiano, if you have gotta call my refering to my alt as "her" as "creepy," then you are digging the bottom of the barrel to find something personally derogatory to say.

coco

P.S. A guy IM'd me in game to tell me he bought five accounts, and got First Land with each one. He said he asked aLinden if it was okay first, and the Linden said yes.