Second Life in the News, Again!

They are clearly marked.

They don't use the word "gay" in their description.

Lewis

It is pointless, the whole argument is pointless. In the year that I've been in SL I can honestly say I have never walked into a sexual situation unknowingly. Every place I've seen that caters to people looking for sex or romance or naughty bits etc. seems to clearly state it in their descriptions. If you find it it's because you were looking for it.

The possibility of being surprised by it I think is pretty slim. I have never TP ed into a mall or club and found people doin it on the floor, though I personally would laugh it off if I did.

To Lewis, I think a lot of the time people are just so floored by the things you say because you don't seem to think before you say them sometimes. Do you really think that places that cater to "Gay sex" should be more identifiable than places that simply cater to sex? I don't think so. I think what you were trying to say is that you just don't want to be surprised by running into sexual situation in general that you weren't expecting. You just worded it badly. But now be honest. How often has that actually happened to you? Is it really very common? I doubt it. I really think if you find sex, it's because you're looking for it.

I just love that one of the AVs in the featured pic is apparently wearing an "I [heart] DICK" shirt

There should be no reason any place or person should have to state their sexual orientation except to attract those looking. A club should not have to point out that it's members are gay any more than any other club should have to point out that it's members are straight and I really don't think you mean to say they should. Every place in SL that is geared towards sex says so in order to draw in the people who are looking for it and thats all that should be expected.

If you walk into a bar in the real world, you sit and hang out for awhile and eventually you realize... "Wow it's all men, I think this might be a gay bar." Do you have the right to go up to the bar owner and tell him, "You really should have warned me first." before you walk out and look for a place that suits you better?

See it IS about labelling. I knew it. Its not about sex. Its about the POSSIBILITY of sex. And of course, since homosexuality is about sexual orientation, whereever homosexuals might gather there might be *gasp!* sex. Which of course would offend Lewis' terribly gentile sensibilities and so he wants all homosexual gathering places labelled.

The accusations against you are not pointless. You are homophobic. Put any other group in there -- religious, ethnic, racial -- and the hue and cry would be the same if not greater. We have misunderstood nothing. We have not twisted your words. You DO want labels, you want them for the purpose of segregation, and you've said so -- repeatedly.

Actually this did happen to me ONCE. It is so rare though that I remember the time and place. It was at the (now, sadly, defunct) shop of Heart Wishbringer and Joe Stravinsky. These two people started doing it up on the third floor in front of the hair. I wanted to buy the hair so it put me in the odd position of standing right next to them. You'd have thought they would have taken it to IM or something but no -- they kept at it right there. I asked them to get a room somewhere and handed them a landmark to the motel that Prok owns (he didn't own it back then though). Anyway I bought my hair and IM'd Heart to tell her that two people were doin it on the floor of her shop. Joe and Heart showed up and Joe asked them for a reason he shouldn't ban them from the shop. It really was funny.

But jeesh in a year that's the ONLY instance I have come upon sex when I wasn't looking for it.

What other groups of people who have gathering places do you think should be clearly marked as such?

Just a hint. Maybe you should change your search terms when you look for new places.

I guess anything that many people will find offensive (and I mean actually offensive, rather than just a pointless dig at seventies music).

One that immediately springs to mind is Gorean sims - but they actually do a very good job of making people aware what they're walking into.

Lewis

/grabs dull pencil and stabs eyeball repeatedly

Are you saying this should mandatory and part of the TOS?

Or are you saying it would make sense for owners to be accurate in their desriptions? And if its based on the owners discretion only, what happens if they are not?

Have you taken your line of thinking to these steps yet or are you only worried about your seemingly neverending series of teleporting into gay people having sex?

If by riveting you mean white hot steel rods piercing my skull, then yes!

And who is to decide what is offensive? Lets hear the nuts and bolts on how you propose how SL should make this master offensive list.

And if you'd be so kind, please provide me with a definition of offensive so that unwashed plebes like me can avoid all these offensive things.

Thanks!

It certainly is as far as the difference between PG and M regions, and I would suggest a better move would be to add an additional category of "X" so that all the sex related stuff can be easily found for those that wish to, as well as avoided for those that wish to.



It would certainly make sense for owners to be more accurate in their descriptions. As far as discretion goes, at the moment the only enforcement is blatantly mature activities/items/locations on PG land.



I rarely go out exploring now as you never know what you might teleport into the middle of. I have my friends, I have my regular hangouts and places to visit, sometimes trusted friends ask me to come visit wherever they are, and I trust their judgement as to whether it's somewhere I may or may not enjoy.

Lewis

I'm reminded of the old story of the groom to be meeting the bride's father. The father tells the young man that in one hand he has a shotgun, while in the other he has a bottle of wine. He explains that they will talk and at the end of the talking one of them will be used.

I about at that point with you, except we're not done talking yet.

I think your last paragraph is most telling just how you feel about stumbling across sex in SL, and while I understood that before, how I don't think I or anybody else here appreciated just how strong a conviction this is to you. These are your beliefs, and I will respect them even though I do not share them.

However, no matter how strong your own beliefs are, you do not have the right to impose them on others, and that's how you come across in many of your posts, not to mention being dismissive of other people's views as insignficant. But I'll tell you this much, I'd stick up for you if someone decided that all Christian run establishments should be clearly identified for ease of avoidance as well.

Go back on some of your posts, and substitute the word Christian for homosexual or gay. If you would be confortable with someone else saying those things to you, then nobody can ever say you are not consistant and your arguments will carry a lot more weight. But if you're not, maybe its time to change your message.

In my experience, most of the Christian establishments I've seen in-game have been clearly marked as such in their description, and many are even shaped like a church from the outside.

Check out the wiki build, up the hill is a small church built by one of the participants. That's not in any way misleading even though there's no parcel description because of the nature of the build.

Lewis

Is your disco designated as a place where those Christians meet?

And you said most, not all. Suppose I want to avoid Christians for whatever reason. Based on your posts about marking certain establishments based on who gathers there, shouldn't I have the same right as you to demand _all_ Christian places be designated as such so I can avoid them?

And you still didn't address _how_ this should be accomplished either.

But without the X this is already the case. Does anyone have trouble finding sexual content when they are looking for it? Does anyone have trouble avoiding it when they are not looking for it?

Thats a rule and it's enforced. Are you asking for a new rule? I'm confused about what you want.

As I and others have pointed out, we know what we're teleporting into. Granted maybe I've been surprised to land in the middle of a firefight once or twice and there was one time when a giant megabot thingy nearly stepped on me on the teleporter pad and apologized while we laughed about him trying to kill me. And ok there was that one time I logged in at my friend's house and caught her partner spanking her, but to be fair, that was pretty much my own fault... plus it was funny as hell.

So are you really saying that you are concerned about exploring SL and accidentally finding things that offend you and that you would like people to make it safer for you? Or are you at this point not really sure why you're arguing anymore? I don't think you're asking for anything that isn't already done.

True, but be honest and fair. They're not doing that because they're afraid they'll offend non christians, they're doing it to attract other christians. And places that cater to those looking for sexual content already do the same thing. I can't name a place that has sexual content on it's premises and doesn't say so. Can you?

No, it is open to anyone who wants to come along and enjoy seventies music.



Probably, but as I said in my experience Christian gathering places are usually clearly marked and obvious.



That would not be a decision I would be involved in, it's a Linden policy decision.

Lewis

I'm not entirely sure, it seems to be more self defence right now as far as I can see.



To some people's standards, much of the clothing available in Second Life could be classed as 'sexual'. I know that, whilst I occasionally show people at work things when I am playing Second Life during lunchtime, I have to be very very careful not to show the vast majority of it - even if I personally am not too bothered by it.

Lewis

Good afternoon discussion participants!

I can see clearly, now that I have read through all EIGHTEEN pages of this thread, that it is not about the article linked in the original post, nor is it about Provincetown sim.

I retract my earlier claim that I will continue to monitor this thread and perhaps join in constructively in the discussion. There is obviously no reason for me to do so. Not once has any one of you mentioned what you found upon visiting our sim. Had any of you actually visited, you'd realize how absurd it has been to carry on a discussion about labels, sexual orientation, gay orgies in the streets etc. etc. A quick trip through our sim would show you that is just not what we are about.

We are proud of the large group of people, straight and gay, human, furry, elfen and all... who have contributed to making Provincetown sim a wonderful place for all SL citizens to visit.

Should any of you ever wish to take a tour and see for yourselves what Provincetown sim is all about, please IM me in world, identify yourself as a part of this discussion, and let me give you the grand tour. That offer includes you as well Lewis. Provincetown is about tolerance. I look forward to meeting some of you in world.

Dillon Speculaas - with Getme Somme
Provincetown Development Authority

I haven't had an opportunity to yet, but it was on my list of 'things to do'.

Lewis

Most gay places are also open to anyone who wants to come in and dance and enjyoy the music. Except that you think they should label themselves -- because in your mind gay = sex and you want to avoid that. It looks like hypocrisy doesn't bother you any more than homophobia.

Sorry, but after the first, say, three pages, threads automatically become about internal arguments and lose all connection with any source material. This is a Forum Rule.

I didn't know it was possible to enjoy seventies music .

But seriously, I would bet that there are a lot of Christians who share your beliefs at your disco. Maybe not everybody, but probably a higher proportion than your typical SL location. How do I know that all your Christians wont suddenly start praying or something? After all, those homosexuals might start having sex at anytime.




That just common sense, they should be. But if they were _required_ to mark themselves, would you feel the same, especially if that requirement came from an anti-Christan group?




That's a cop out. If you feel you have no place in this decision, then why are you such an advocate for marking gay establishments, unless you are pressing for a Linden policy change.