Petition and Poll: Reinstate CrisMid

I can't even remember the last time I've seen the word pitchfork in a thread.

p.s. while we're on the "p" words, I'll throw in a pink pony.

signed

/me wags finger at LL and makes stern face

I completely agree. Even if it wasn't intended as a show of power, this move has clearly polarized the community at large. As you say, even those who have historically disagreed on the vast majority of topics seem in consensus on this being an incredibly *bad* move by LL.

Wow, Cris, it seems like only yesterday that the near endless outcry at your banning began in earnest on the forums and now you're back! Welcome back! I trust you did something productive with your forced time in the real world!

Cheers! I'm off to search for entertainment in the form of the next topic about which folks can become incensed and outraged!

Why allow a "Bug" thread to stay open if people who are posting what they beleave to be bugs, not exploits, get banned for trying to help?

Close and delete the thread, dont ban people for trying to help, like I was banned for three days.

What were you suspended for?

The exploit that was discovered and caused the grid to close sunday, my post didnt go step by step on how to do it, but what stumbling over it caused. I put it in a 6 or 7 page thread full of bugs from the new version including the texture theft bug... then 2 days later I get a suspension notice and I see the police blotter fill up with a few like my own.

My question is this... The bug, at most, caused objects to be moved... people could take them back up or they got auto-returned... no one gained any money off doing this bug... so how can it be deemed an exploit, no one got an unfair advantage or took money off another's work... while the texture bug was posted around for days and DID provide a means to make money off others...

I feel the punishments were either

A.) resmod vendettas
B.) LL making a very bad move, trying to prove some point (and badly failing)

I mean, close, lock and delete the thread, don't allow bug threads to be started... because someone like me, who is TRYING so hard to help, ends up getting suckerpunched for some reason...

I've never gotten any warnings in game or on the forums (I have PMs on)

I've never had any negative interactions with the lindens (until now)

Why the heavy handed response?

my how we appluded when they ran the gadfly out. how wedanced and hailed the wisdom of the lords of the olive tree. How sage they were, how even handed and just they were in their application of justice to preserve the community for divisive elements. ahh the halycon days of the FIC, the demise of the gadfly and howling down of those who supported him.

how the worm has turned, the mighty have fallen and justice seems to have put on the leather boots and the bullwhip and dropped the sword and scale. injustice the evil lords do, sending our bravest and fairest from the land. politcs and preference! return him to us, or be damned. this is arbitrary and meaningless, he did not violate the letter of the almighty book of TOS, after all.

a might injuctice has been done.

hehehe.

Wish I could say I hadn't told ya so. Yes the suspension in question may have been arbitrary and capricioous and not justified..but this is not the first time. The only suprise here is that everyone seems so shocked.

I'm still thinking that the obvious solution is a third-party forum where people can discuss things that would get them ToSsed if posted to the SecondLife Forums.

LOL! Starax wins!

I don't think he should have been suspended. It seemed quite obvious what his intentions were in posting it even if the ramifications weren't fully considered. I don't blame LL for not wanting exploits advertised on the forums (and they're probably quite tired of having people wag their fingers at them and treating them like uncaring imbeciles), but the thread in question should simply have been deleted and an explanation sent by PM.

Welcome back, Cristiano.

This situation reminds me of something that happened in another world. There was a very well-known resident and content-provider, and he became unhappy with certain aspects of the world. He made his presence known on the forum, and criticised the company and the council that represented the self-government of the world.

His house disappeared without trace, together with all his objects and inventory. Nobody knew what had happened. It was unaccountable. Very strange. No one with power could help. He ended up leaving the world completely disillusioned.

This was a world which I have discussed before on the forums, where there was a layer of self-government, and where corruption was rife. This hell-hole was the reason I have always opposed self-government. When I came to Second Life the atmosphere was totally different and, at that time, was like a breath of fresh air. A benign dictatorship was obviously the place to be. It seemed at that time that the Lindens and their customers were working together towards a common goal.

But recent events have shown that even this kind of system needs to have scrutiny. Because it has become corrupt. It is clear that corruption is something that grows wherever power manifests itself, like a kind of fungus.

An unhappy lesson to have to learn.

I am sorry you were at the receiving end, Cristiano, and I imagine that you and I feel pretty much the same about Second Life now. It seems that the Lindens no longer have any interest whatever in the people who contribute the most to their world.

When the next virtual world comes along (as it must, sooner or later), I will be a pain in the arse from the start, trying to set up a system of scrutiny so that this kind of thing will not happen. None of us welcomes corruption - it creeps up on us. But once it has us in its grip we can never escape it.

All we can do now is to keep our heads down (which I know I haven't done yet) and to realise that from now on the days of cooperation between the owners and the customers have come to an end. Let's just stick it out until something better comes along.

Absolutely on all points.

Good points.

Sounds unfair to me.

I would just like to point out, though, that the resmods themselves have power only to draw the Lindens' attention to threads. Lindens themselves make the decision whether to edit, remove, warn, or suspend.

I also agree with Jake.

coco

I figured you wouldn't be gracious enough not to post a giant "I told you so". You didn't disappoint. Personally, I was not for Prokofy's perma-banning, unless they could make a sound TOS case for having done so as an absolute last resort, which I don't think they could. I do think that they did try to find ways to make the TOS stretch to encompass Prokofy's behavior, which was always borderline but not clear cut violations. Much like the Bible can be twisted to suit a particular bias, so the TOS can be "interpreted" to suit a particular offense, especially as broadly written as it is. At a minimum, Prokofy should have been given a clear indicator of what each violation was, and a chance to appeal in a real way, not the dead letter office method of abuse-manager. No matter what my personal feelings about Prokofy are, it is true that disciplinary action applied aribitrarily to one person can be applied to any of us the same way.

Hell no I am not that gracious. Though I do, in fact think the course taken in this case was even farther off the mark. I am not sure how identifying an exploit is the same as using it, it did not seem to me that CrisMid told anyone how to use the exploit. In any case i think it was clear from the intention that crismid was not trying to use the exploit but get it fixed. then again I am not blessed with the wisdom of the olive lords.

We agree entirely. Consistent, transparent enforcement is always at the top of my list. the gadfly and now crismid have been set up on what seems an arbitrary matter.. when the worm turns it turns fast. Thus my highlighting in this matter with a most obnoxious I told you so.

However, christiano, welcome back at least.

Welcome back Cris.

I learned a couple of valuable lessons this week. Reporting exploits for the protection of others, is met with suspension and personal attacks.

Next time I see an exploit, I won't report it. I will just use it. LL doesn't do anything about that.

I have certainly been curious about the fate of those who did use the exploit to damage builds. The only people I've heard getting into any trouble were those reporting about it, however vague, not those using it. If there is a exploit reporting method in the future that will ensure both discretion and the matter being handled quickly, I will continue to report any exploits in an effort to get them fixed. If Linden Lab doesn't rise to the occasion and continues as usual, I will still warn people if necessary, even with personal risk for doing so. Time will tell.

If the intention is to prevent people from being hurt by the exploit then drawing public attention to it, in most cases, isn't going to be the way to go. If an exploit is known that means there are people in world who know how to use it. The more people who know of its existence, the more people will be seeking out someone to tell them how it works which means more people who might use it before LL can get it fixed. While public disclosure might light a fire under LL's ass to get it fixed faster it still increases the likelihood of harm being done with the exploit. I don't see how that serves anyone's interest. I respect and appreciate your intentions but I hope you'll consider the probability that making it public will do more harm than good.

I was frankly surprised at the initial acceptance with which tying forum behavior to inworld behavior was met. It just seemed that personal conflicts took a front seat to the issue. The basic concept that an individual could be supporting this company in a significant way financially but lose all their holdings because of losing their cool on a forum still blows me away. I mean, people here post day in day out, it's a community in its own right, and who the hell never has a mispeak over an extended period of time? Sure send an individual to their room or the cornfield to chill out for awhile when needed, but take away access to SL? That is just too wierd.

Yea, yea, I know, TOS, it's their house, and all the other blah-blah-blah. Step back and put SL in perspective; booting out avid participants/customers makes no business sense that I can fathom.

How many people have actually been permabanned from the both the forums and SL itself? I still only know of one and that person was given ample warning and chances to adjust their behavior. They never did and they were only punted from the forums. People can lament the rules and the system but ultimately it still comes down to personal responsibility. Sure, it's easy to have a bad day and go over the line or to break a rule inadvertantly, but if you get a bunch of warnings before anything really bad happens then shouldn't we as responsible adults be able to ammend our behavior before getting the boot? Frankly I'm more annoyed by people who blame everything on the system and never on themselves, even if what got them a three day vacation was completely accidental. Is the answer really "no, I can't change my ways"? If so that would seem to be more of a personal problem of the poster and not a fault of the system.

It really depends on a case by case basis. In general, I agree, depending on the nature of the exploit, it should be kept as low key as possible. However, when you have an exploit that is being actively used to damage builds going on for hours, warning people outweighed the potential that alerting people also would alert those who would use the vulnerability (though I personally think that the vast majority of griefers don't read the forums anyway).

What I meant by my statement about continuing to report is I am not going to let this deter me from reporting, unlike what Weedy said - I will be more than happy to use the freshly implemented formal emergency procedures that are now being put into place. I would prefer that, I just don't have tremendous faith in it. If those procedures are all for show and do not produce any tangible improvements and a similar situation came up again, as a last resort I would do the exact same thing. I am all for safe disclosure, but honestly, companies often do not act unless pressed into action.