Defining the FIC (Seriously)

We're sorry to annouce that we ran into technical difficulties while developing Cowbell V2.0. Our plan now is to slowly release more cowbell over the coming decades.


We thank you for your understanding.








Actually, I'm blown away that this stupid bastarding thread lasted 20 pages!. When first announcing Cowbell V2.0. I'd deliberately scheduled it for a page that I thought the thread would never reach. You crazy people!!!

You are thinking of problems that might occur on down the line with the Developer's Directory. If very good people on the Directory were overlooked every single time in favor of the one group, or good people couldn't even get on it, then one might make a case against it.

But none of the call for equal opportunity is in order to force the Lindens to choose people who wouldn't be qualified for the job. It is only in order that all those good cooks who DON'T happen to know Julia Child can put their cakes up for judging, too.

In my opinion - the Developer's Directory suffices for that, for its needs regarding major projects and outside projects. Contests and whatnot are a good way to do lesser things.

Anyone who is on the top of anything, or who gets chosen for things, is going to endure a certain amount of bashing no matter what. But if fair processes are there to give equal opportunty to everyone to apply, then people don't really have a leg to stand on to criticize, since they could have entered the contest or applied to the Directory themselves.

Unless, of course, it turned out that the whole DD is just window-dressing - which I have confidence it is not. (So sue me, lol.) As I have confidence that the contests are not window-dressing, either.

coco

Sums it up rather nicely me thinks.

Never underestimate the power of Forum BS.

I put an umbrella in my back yard but the olympics committe won't listen to me - they insist on picking countries to host the olympics in just because they're bigger and been around longer - its favoritsm I tell you and it's not fair.

But it doesn't stop there...

I've been playing guitar in my bedroom for years - I'm getting pretty good - but still Virgin records won't knock on my door and offer me a record contract. It sucks - they should canvas everyone and make sure we all get a fair crack at that deal.. I mean it sucks that folks who do concerts and cut demos and perform should be the only ones that Virgin records spots and picks up for a label.

They just pick people they know - and its not fair.

The fair processes ARE there, you are right. Which is why threads like this shouldn't even really pop up.

Yah its just so unfair... folks worked hard making content at their own expense and now they're recognized.. it's not fair at all - I want some of the gains that their hard work has gotten them.



OMG! L33T H4X! GIMME!

On one level I agree - who LL pick to do works should be more 'transparent' in fact it should be INVISIBLE - that is they should keep it to themselves so the folks that do the work can have a harrasment free Second Life from the vocal minortity with delusions of adequacy.

They haven't always been there. They are new since my joining, and that is after FIC became a term.

And they aren't always used. That is a fact. And they should always be used. So there is room for improvement.

coco

P.S. Siggy, nobody harrassed me, and I've worked with them twice now.

But you to they is ok then?

Ahhh I see.

Does this make you 'FIC' then? Or does this only apply to others?

Just curious - another nail in the FIC myth. When folks start saying you were only chosen to work because you are a special lil snowflake and beloved of them and they are playing favorites.. will it be more true or less true?

Or does the entire thing revolve around when it happens to other people?

When people can apply for things given out by LL, then that is a good thing. When people can't - but just turn around and discover that somebody has been given a project or something, then that is a bad thing.

The whole thing revolves around - equal opportunity for all.

coco

P.S. In fact, it's such a simple damn concept, and so much in the spirit of fair play, it's kind of wild that I'm still here talking about it a whole year later, this stuff that should be so very basic. But - there have been significant advances made, and I'm sure there will be more to come.

Why do you think either are chosen? Is it because they are pally pals or because of the work they have done?

Very very simple question here.

If I say 'well you just got to do something cause they wanted to shut you up'

How would you feel about that? Angry and hurt I would imagine and hope.

Now consider what yourself, and many others have said over that past year - they only got to do stuff coz they're pals and members of a secret club that gets preferential treatment.

Thats the crux of the whole FIC myth. And now - by virtue of how its perpetuated (if you actually get to do something - you are now a member of the mythical 'in' crowd) - you yourself are one of *them*

You either acknowledge that you got an opportunity based on the quality of what you've done - and this whole FIC thing is malarky.

Or

You didn't get to participate based on the virtue of your works.

It's not an argument you can really have both ways.

And its what the whole 'feted' thing is... a bunch of bullshit.

Lets put a nail in the coffin of 'equal opportunity - its all FIC' once and for all.

Circa 1.3 there was no doing any Linden projects.. I know this first hand. I was approached to sell all the textures, scripts, and general bits and peices I used to make a waterfall in Mavericks (Full Moon Falls) - I offered to make what they wanted and was told that that couldn't be done as that would seem to some as preferential treatment.

That is the hard cold fact of it.

Later the opportunity arose to submit to LL a proposal for full sim content - and if it passed you would be able to (for a short amount of time) build a themed sim. This opportunity was open and available to all - only some, however, took advantage of it.

At this time you saw things like Neverland, Oz, and Neautleburgerhoweveritsspelt - I'm not sure if Chinatown and Halloween sim by Bedazzled was privately owned or not -- It may have been - which is even cooler if it was.

Full sims created by a few small groups of dedicated people.. Who worked VERY hard.

There were the Game Dev contests - also available to all..

And when the Stagecoach thing came up - what better way to answer the questions 'how do we get it built' than to show pics of the past successes?

Before this there WAS no 'contracting by Linden Lab' It didn't exist.

These people CREATED that opportunity - and if they were given first crack of the whip by proving they had what it took for a professional client ... well good for them!

If not for the groups that came before - you wouldn't even have the opportunity - there would be no market for it.. rather than throw poop at these folks and deningrate their works with this whole FIC myth bullshit - you should be shaking thier hands and THANKING them for giving YOU the opportunity to do something.

And that's 'the word'

Mmmmmm....fiiiiiiiberrrrr..... *peeks out his window and the Verizon trucks installing fiber in his neighborhood...* Sooooooon...very soooooon.....


-Kiamat Dusk

Heck, Siggy, I considered that myself.

I got an opportunity because the opportunity was announced.

No one said that people's talent and ability had nothing to do with why they were chosen. No one said that people WITHOUT talent and ability were chosen. No one has said that people without talent or ability SHOULD be chosen.

What has been said is, you can't very well put your talent and ability forward unless you get the OPPORTUNITY. Having it based on so-and-so knows so-and-so isn't good enough, isn't fair, and isn't equitable, no matter who has what talent.

I got an opportunity. If they hadn't made this opportunity open to all, would I have had the opportunity? No. Moreover, consider the contest after that one. They made that open to all, and six people (including me) were chosen to build the houses for Blumfield. If they had not done that as a contest, all those people wouldn't have had the chance, and the Lindens wouldn't have benefited from the variety.

Now, clearly things like Wells Fargo have a higher standard required, since you just can't fail on something like that. Hence the Developer's Directory. Which, as I said, is a new way (and a better way) of doing things.

As for your next post - I have no intention of putting nails in any equal opportunity. I want it, and we should have it. Moreover, the Lindens are taking steps so that we do have it.

Then you mention: "Later the opportunity arose to submit to LL a proposal for full sim content - and if it passed you would be able to (for a short amount of time) build a themed sim. This opportunity was open and available to all - only some, however, took advantage of it."

So? So that is good. Why should something be open opportunity then, but not now?

Who is throwing poop at those folks and denigrating their work? The only thing that I have been denigrating is any system which does not offer equal opportunity to all, in all ways, and for all things.

coco

Siggy, that's your experience, and your first hand knowledge. I was around pre-1.3 (0.2), and I can tell you for a fact that I have first hand knowledge, as do others, that differs.

The most amusing thing I find about this whole FIC thing is that whereas the concept is correct (that LL has long had an inner circle of residents, both Lindens and non-Lindens, to whom extreme favoritism is shown and what I, personally, consider unethical perks are given), most of what's been posted in the forum about it is incorrect.

It's actually far more outrageous (in my opinion) than anything I've seen posted. There are extremely few residents who are aware of the extent of it, and they (myself included) know we'll be banned on the spot if we ever posted it in here, or the chat logs, emails, pictures, etc.

There was a lot of manipulation and meta-gaming, and a few people were badly hurt. People who worked as hard, and harder, and contributed as much, or more than, those who have gotten perks. It's been a very, very ugly thing.

Unfortunately, it's a very common thing in the gaming world. And so long as people keep denying its existence, it'll just get worse. It just makes people look foolish when they scream denial of something that many can see, are aware of, and have lived. But I guess if people acknowledged it, they'd also have to acknowledge - to themselves - that maybe they're not quite as rightfully deserving or smart or talented or whatever as they need to believe themselves to be. Again personal opinion - I find that very sad, and much more bothersome than giving unethical perks.

Some people aren't going to like what I've said. They can flame away -- I've got asbestos skin. The truth and the facts stand.

You always had the exact same opportunity those others did. To enter the game dev contests. To buy a sim as a group and work your ass off to show what you can do. That's how they got picked, not by buffing their nails against their chests and ho-humming about how great they were. You could have done the exact same thing. We all could have.

The ONLY difference is that they created the opportunity themselves, and you demand it from the Lindens.

HOW does it not exist now? Thats what I'm saying.. the opportunites that were taken advantage to to create your mythical elite called upon class were available to ALL... right down to submitting pictures for the new website.

Every single instance brought up by the 'omgz fic' screamers came from an open opportunity to all residents at the time.

From pictures - to the chance to create full sim content.

And when new opportunities arose from those that did the work - all you hear is 'omgz fic - they is chozen coz they is linden pals'

which is utter crap.

You get the opportunity by building your stuff and contributing to the world.. its that simple. Who's stopping you? Noone.

And I think the whole 'linden pally' thing denigrates the hard work those folks put in to create opportunities that you now have.

I'm happy to post my experiences positive and negative - and they can be checked and looked up...

Just like the whole myth itself - I'm asked for proof / history / facts to back up my statements - I give it - and yet on the other side of the fence I never get the same courtesy.

I get either a 'well its true' or 'well I can't tell you or I'll get banned'

If the other side of the fence asks me to back up what I'm talking about - I'll ask the same.

Of course the one time someone HAS posted logs on her blog it becomes blatantly obvious that their treatment has something to do with them acting like a blue veined throbbing dick of the highest caliber.

Funnily enough - the self same person who came up with the term in the first place.

as for equal opportunities - well, even the auction that sold you the boardwalk was open to all.

Sometimes, Siggy, it has just been easier for them to turn to a known entity to create, for instance, an entire sim's content. But it should never be done that way, even if it is easier.

coco

I say 'bullshit'.

A potential customer goes to LL and says 'we want a sim built' LL scratches head and then shows examples of sims built by groups... 'Do you like these?'

Sounds perfectly reasonable. Theres a deadline - you give it to the people who have shown they can deliver... the people that sought out the opportunities to do it in the past.

Its a private deal between LL and a client - and has nothing to do with the rest of SL.
They have NO obligation to do so as far as I can see - its a SMART move.

And how did those folks prove they could do it?

By hard work.

Not by back patting and being buddy buddys.

But for shits and giggles lets see how that could go the other way:

Client: We need a sim built!
LL: ok we will put out a notice and get a bunch of random folks to apply.. this will take a month.

Client: WHAT?

LL: Sorry thats how we do biz here.

Client: when will it be done?

LL: Dunno - haven't really seen these folks work to a deadline - let alone as a team (lol) my bad

Client: How do I know it will get done?

LL: Well shit - even we don't know IF it will get done!

Client: ...... fuck that >> click <<

or

LL: we have 2 teams who had a sim ready by a month deadline before - here is pictures of what they came up with - do any of these appeal to you?



THere were no opportunites until those people made them possible - and by that instance that they showed were possible.

If they got first lick of the ice cream - they deserve it.

To summarize, some people think there is a FIC, and some people don't, is that about it?

Well said Zee, and I completly agree.

Cat

Well, I think we're talking at cross purposes, Siggy. We're just going to continue to see this from two different angles.

coco

Alright, been in RL so barely scanned through most of the posts. What I can see is nothing hardly of substance has been said though Zee did make a major statement on the issue that the FIC absolutely exists to their knowledge, and Siggy making cutting remarks throughout the thread, and and others continuing their same respective party's line.

I don't have an axe to grind, personally. I am happy. SL is not that important to me, I like it, I want to see the community succeed, but it definitely does not affect my RL. It is a matter of stepping away and turning off the computer is all lol. I do respect other people's dedicated interest in Second Life as a virtual world and community though, so the issue of the "FIC" and sociological issue does interest me. I do have my own small projects, to have something to do while I am online.

As has been said, and I was saying this phenomena of an "clique" as part of human nature exists in every online community as well as in RL but it can be either very corrupt or less so.

I do not think it should be said everyone looking at the issue has an "axe to grind" or is "jealous" or just does not know what they are talking about. Valid points deserve to be addressed, and looked at. For instance, there are still people like Zee who are making honest personal statements on their belief that there is true unethical behavior going on. This would mean it is happening in the "extreme".

For instance, example only no offence to any one, many times people who are called arrogant or self-centered have the come back that others are just "jealous". Well, no, thats not always true. Sometimes these arrogant or self-centered people really are that way, and people see it so they call it as it is. Sometimes people's accusations really do hold water, it is not that their "jealous", "ignorant", or "wrong".

What I was trying to do with this thread was have people state honestly, without pointing fingers, if they believe that this is occuring in SL in an very unfair or unethical way that is comparatively extreme as would be in a situation that Zee stated. Also generally I wanted to have a discussion on the sociological bit of it. Thats just what I was going for.

Sure - but why not loop through the database, and show the client a snapshot of every group-built sim on the grid, then ask the client for preferences? The worst that can happen is that the group turns down the job, and if they're lucky they might get a nice lowest-bidder thing going.

The deadline issue is a tricky one though. On the one hand, you want to make sure people can work to a deadline; on the other hand, regular building isn't done to a specification and deadline, and so the only way you can prove you can work to a deadline is to get given a job with one.. which means a job with a deadline has to be given to someone who hasn't proved themselves yet. Ouch.