The Profanity Conundrum: Here's the deal.
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Juro Kothari
Like a dog on a bone
Join date: 4 Sep 2003
Posts: 4,418
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02-05-2006 23:35
From: Cocoanut Koala You are berating people for expecting a rule to be upheld - a rule which they didn't make. The point is, the rule is there. People should be able to reasonably expect it will be upheld, rather than flaunted. Else there should be no rule. It's a silly rule - my discussion here is about whether or not it serves a purpose or causes more problems. I think it causes more.
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Martin Magpie
Catherine Cotton
Join date: 13 Nov 2004
Posts: 1,826
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02-05-2006 23:36
From: SuezanneC Baskerville I would esitimate that at least 20 percent of the people in the area I live in are deeply distressed by the use of profanity or foul language of any sort. They don't use such language, they react in an offended way when those around them use it. My former employer had such a strict viewpoint that employees were not even supposed to use the word "crap" during work.
I think that people with this mindset deserve to be able to use the support forums for the Second Life program.
People who want to be raunchy and lewd and crude can use private means of communication for their private conversations.
There is nothing at all to be said about a 3D VR program that requires the use of any kind of foul language whatsoever.
It gets tiring having to explain that over and over and over.
This is a software company's support forum for a 3D modeling and scripting development system. It is not a drunken night at the bar.
All one has to do to be in an SL oriented forum with near zero contraints on content is to go to sluniverse.com. This is simple as pie. Cristiano's site has other good features, it should be in every SL user's bookmarks.
At any rate, the forums are PG. Abiding by local standards is a requirement for membership in Second Life. Persistent refusal to abide by the Community Standards indicates a rejection of the Terms Of Service, which require adherence to the the Community Standards, which require behaving in accordance with the rating for the part of the service one is in. Everyone who refuses to abide by the standards in effect in an area has violated their aggreement with the compamy and should have their accounts closed and forfeit all inworld holdings, land, inventory and linden dollar balances. I agree with you and Coco, if ppl have a "need" to cus their heads off they can go IW find a Mature plot and let it out. Cat These are LL rules folks I guess if you have a problem with it and realy want to test the water then you know who to tell off in the most vulgar way you can. A Linden. Until they look the other way I gotta say this is already a done deal. Now how about we all just be decent and respect the LL PG ruling. 
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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02-06-2006 00:02
From: Selador Cellardoor Why bother reading her threads then? The same reason you respond to me... *shrug*
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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02-06-2006 00:22
From: Martin Magpie I agree with you and Coco, if ppl have a "need" to cus their heads off they can go IW find a Mature plot and let it out. Cat These are LL rules folks I guess if you have a problem with it and realy want to test the water then you know who to tell off in the most vulgar way you can. A Linden. Until they look the other way I gotta say this is already a done deal. Now how about we all just be decent and respect the LL PG ruling.  Cuss their heads off? People are acting like these forums are like an extended episode of the Sopranos or something, and someone must desperately act to clean them up and enforce that all important PG rule or god forbid some prude will be offended because they saw a dirty word eww ick. I take comfort in the fact that at least in their enforcement, LL does seem to take context into account and not just play the role of net nanny censor (meaning 'fuck you' directed at someone is a personal attack, but the use of fuck as an expletive is not grounds for calling out the dogs). I will never have respect for a PG ruling - it makes zero sense to limit speech so strictly in an adults only environment in such a petty manner. Deal with problematic people as they come up, but there are more important things to put resourced toward that giving adults warnings for saying naughty words.
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Zany Golem
Purple Freak
Join date: 30 Oct 2005
Posts: 113
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giving words power....
02-06-2006 00:35
I heard some profanity advice from one of my High School teachers that I think I will always remember. She told the class that the more profanity is used, the less meaning it has. If it loses it's meaning then people have no way to know when you're voicing extreme (usually negative) feelings. So I tried it out and reserved those words for only when I really meant them. When I would get angry I would quiet a room full of people without having to shout. Now I'm only 24 so I'm not talking about situations that took place decades ago  This was in today's culture where casual profanity is the norm among young adults. So... my point is I gave my words power. There are times and places for profanity and you can choose to give your words power or you can let them become cliche. It's up to you.
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-Zany
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
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02-06-2006 01:13
Here's my problem, the words mean what they are to me. So if you use one particular word, I instantly see you having sex. You use another word and you're on the toilet. You use another word and bam, there's a lady with her legs spread wide and yet another and there's sulfur and brimstone.
It kind of takes away from the subject at hand and adds nothing to it.
And gosh I have to agree with Coco and Cat.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe the truth is overrated  From: Argent Stonecutter The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better? Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
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Lo Jacobs
Awesome Possum
Join date: 28 May 2004
Posts: 2,734
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02-06-2006 01:21
From: April Firefly Here's my problem, the words mean what they are to me. So if you use one particular word, I instantly see you having sex. You use another word and you're on the toilet. You use another word and bam, there's a lady with her legs spread wide and yet another and there's sulfur and brimstone.
It kind of takes away from the subject at hand and adds nothing to it.
And gosh I have to agree with Coco and Cat. I don't understand how saying "What the fuck! My wallet is missing!" is the same as "Fuck you, you piece of shit!!!"
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Chance Abattoir
Future Rockin' Resmod
Join date: 3 Apr 2004
Posts: 3,898
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02-06-2006 02:37
From: Zany Golem She told the class that the more profanity is used, the less meaning it has. If it loses it's meaning then people have no way to know when you're voicing extreme (usually negative) feelings.
Actually, people would choose another word as the old one looses its novelty. Shazbot!
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"The mob requires regular doses of scandal, paranoia and dilemma to alleviate the boredom of a meaningless existence." -Insane Ramblings, Anton LaVey
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Spinner Poutine
Still rezzin or am I
Join date: 28 Oct 2005
Posts: 583
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02-06-2006 03:15
From: Chance Abattoir Actually, people would choose another word as the old one looses its novelty. Shazbot! ooo I have one Fa-Q 
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-06-2006 03:16
From: Eboni Khan The same reason you respond to me...
*shrug* I don't think I have ever told you that nobody wants your postings. *shrug*
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April Firefly
Idiosyncratic Poster
Join date: 3 Aug 2004
Posts: 1,253
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02-06-2006 04:38
From: Lo Jacobs I don't understand how saying "What the fuck! My wallet is missing!" is the same as "Fuck you, you piece of shit!!!" They aren't the same. I am sorry you didn't understand what I was saying. The words are associated with the acts they represent and do not belong in either sentence. "My wallet is missing, has anyone seen it, or can you help me find it?" "i take issue with what you have done. Can we discuss it?" Those two sentences could replace the other two but not each other and transmit the issues better.
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From: Billybob Goodliffe the truth is overrated  From: Argent Stonecutter The most successful software company in the world does a piss-poor job on all these points. Particularly the first three. Why do you expect Linden Labs to do any better? Yes, it's true, I have a blog now!
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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02-06-2006 05:56
From: Martin Magpie Yes I think that is your exact intention. My exact intention to is to revel in delicious hypocrisy! 
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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Cristiano Midnight
Evil Snapshot Baron
Join date: 17 May 2003
Posts: 8,616
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02-06-2006 06:01
From: April Firefly They aren't the same. I am sorry you didn't understand what I was saying. The words are associated with the acts they represent and do not belong in either sentence.
"My wallet is missing, has anyone seen it, or can you help me find it?"
"i take issue with what you have done. Can we discuss it?"
Those two sentences could replace the other two but not each other and transmit the issues better. I understand what you are saying, April. Yes, the sentences can be rewritten as such, but why should the writer be forced to change the meaning. I imagine if someone is saying "fuck, I lost my wallet", they are wanting to express that level of exasperation. Changing the words used changes the meaning. It comes down to an issue of freedom of expression. Nine times out of ten I would not pick a swear word simply because it doesn't convey my meaning, but when it does, that is what i choose to use. They are simply words, and it silly to get so worked up over them and feign so much offense to them. I understand that your situation is a little different, but then that comes down to a question of should everyone have to alter their behavior because of how you interpret it, or should you work to adjust to something that is a normal part of adult society. I'm not sure what the answer is there, but I am always loathe to censor people. Again, it is not like these forums are so massively filled with expletives in every other sentence that some major action is needed to combat the problem - it ends up just coming down to micromanaging adults like babies and scolding them with being naughty.
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Cristiano ANOmations - huge selection of high quality, low priced animations all $100L or less. ~SLUniverse.com~ SL's oldest and largest community site, featuring Snapzilla image sharing, forums, and much more. 
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Lord Wishbringer
Registered User
Join date: 3 Dec 2004
Posts: 209
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02-06-2006 06:04
From: April Firefly
"i take issue with what you have done. Can we discuss it?"
I guess its the fact we are all from different backgrounds then. If someone said that to me,i would most likley laugh and think you were pompous.I'm not used to people talking that way my day to day life. I would be far more confortable around a person who said "Fuck you,You peice of shit!!" as Lo Jacobs put it lol
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Eboni Khan
Misanthrope
Join date: 17 Mar 2004
Posts: 2,133
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02-06-2006 06:08
From: Selador Cellardoor I don't think I have ever told you that nobody wants your postings.
*shrug* I never said I didn't want Cocoa posting. I said I want her to stop trying to police us like we are her children. She tried it a few months ago and I believe the thread was so heated she ended up with a warning in the end. This is just a rehash of the same agenda she has been pushing for months. The other thread was closed. Where are the hall monitors to close this one under the reposting rules?
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Selador Cellardoor
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2003
Posts: 3,082
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02-06-2006 07:19
From: Eboni Khan I never said I didn't want Cocoa posting. I said I want her to stop trying to police us like we are her children. She tried it a few months ago and I believe the thread was so heated she ended up with a warning in the end. This is just a rehash of the same agenda she has been pushing for months. The other thread was closed.
Where are the hall monitors to close this one under the reposting rules? Well, actually I agree with your point of view, while disagreeing with your way of expressing it. I have always been against forum moderation (at least, moderation of that which is legal), feeling that the person who runs a successful forum does so by means of creating an ambiance which encourages constructive discussion and discourages bullying and aggression. I am in favour of free speech, and that means the freedom for people to say things that I, personally, might not like. But equally, that concept of free speech entitles Coco to write about what she likes, when she likes. After all, we all have the option not to participate in particular threads.
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Phoenix Psaltery
Ninja Wizard
Join date: 25 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,599
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02-06-2006 07:35
http://www.nailmaster.ru/fuck.html (Caution: definitely NSFW) Ignore the "wait for file to load" thing. P2
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Surreal Farber
Cat Herder
Join date: 5 Feb 2004
Posts: 2,059
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02-06-2006 07:37
We also have the option to slam the idea if we think it bites. I think it bites. I want LL to spend more resources on washing people's mouths out with soap. I do!!
Coco keeps talking about there being a rule. There is no rule. PG doesn't have a hard and fast meaning. If there were a rule, it needs to be defined.
Personally, I think trying to choke off free speech because it offends a few is BS. Once that starts, where does it end? There are many things on the forums which offend me. There are many things in RL which offend me. I don't require other people to change what they do to make me more comfortable. I may ask them on an individual basis. And I may choose to not associate with them if I'm really uncomfortable.
Now the forums aren't covered by free speech laws since they are the sole property of Linden Labs. They get to decide. If they are going to censor words, rather than reprimand attacks, then they need to SPELL IT OUT, so those of us who tend to abide by the TOS can comply.. or sod off.
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Surreal
Phobos 3d Design - putting the hot in psychotic since 2004
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Kendra Bancroft
Rhine Maiden
Join date: 17 Jun 2004
Posts: 5,813
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02-06-2006 07:44
oh for fuck's sake.
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Ingrid Ingersoll
Archived
Join date: 10 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,601
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02-06-2006 08:16
From: Kendra Bancroft oh for fuck's sake. [email=!@#$*&%]!@#$*&%[/email]
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Enabran Templar
Capitalist Pig
Join date: 26 Aug 2004
Posts: 4,506
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02-06-2006 08:19
lol
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From: Hiro Pendragon Furthermore, as Second Life goes to the Metaverse, and this becomes an open platform, Linden Lab risks lawsuit in court and [attachment culling] will, I repeat WILL be reverse in court. Second Life Forums: Who needs Reason when you can use bold tags?
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MJ Hathor
Purple Butterfly
Join date: 17 Mar 2005
Posts: 901
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02-06-2006 08:19
From: Ingrid Ingersoll [email=!@#$*&%]!@#$*&%[/email] *sounds like robot* YOU HAVE BEEN REPORTED!
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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02-06-2006 10:09
From: MJ Hathor I really thought you were smarter than that. How come you and tweedledumb (forget his name already) keep insisting that Satchmo meant F U as in Fuck you, instead of fu as in resmod-fu (kung-fu reference)?? Seriously, can't you find a better leg to stand on so to speak, this is really getting old. I am smarter than you can imagine and my interpretation is as valid as yours. If you dont like what you read then mute me. FU means FU.. if you dont like that interpretation then make up some kung fu reference and pretend it doesnt. 
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Reitsuki Kojima
Witchhunter
Join date: 27 Jan 2004
Posts: 5,328
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02-06-2006 10:13
From: katykiwi Moonflower I am smarter than you can imagine and my interpretation is as valid as yours. I'm gonna have to take issue with that. An interperetion that isn't correct is not as valid as one that is. It's not a subjective issue.
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I am myself indifferent honest; but yet I could accuse me of such things that it were better my mother had not borne me: I am very proud, revengeful, ambitious, with more offenses at my beck than I have thoughts to put them in, imagination to give them shape, or time to act them in. What should such fellows as I do crawling between earth and heaven? We are arrant knaves, all; believe none of us.
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katykiwi Moonflower
Esquirette
Join date: 5 Dec 2003
Posts: 1,489
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02-06-2006 10:14
From: Surreal Farber Now the forums aren't covered by free speech laws since they are the sole property of Linden Labs. They get to decide. If they are going to censor words, rather than reprimand attacks, then they need to SPELL IT OUT, so those of us who tend to abide by the TOS can comply.. or sod off. Exactyl...its LL's venue and they can set the rules, but no matter what rule is selected, it is vital that there be consistent and even handed application allowing predictability.
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