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Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Villain Baroque
Registered User
Join date: 3 Nov 2007
Posts: 16
11-08-2008 10:56
Dear M,

I just heard a very bad rumour (at last I hope, it's just a rumour) and I think it needs your or another Lindens immediate clarifcation. And I really hope that it is clearly stated that this is just a rumour without any truth to it.

So, please answer this question:
Is it true that LL has started banning protesters from Second Life or that Lindens threated residents with banning for their protests?

A very concerned resident.
Kwakkelde Kwak
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 37
11-08-2008 10:58
From: IAm Zabelin
Well I still think its a load of crap ... 750 prims is useless ... and at $75 tier!!!

I have OS's using prim-efficient content like 1/3 (yes one-third) prim palm trees ... its a 3 palm group in one sculpted prim, that would max out 750 prims to create a decent tropical landscape. The only small positive I see coming out of this crappy change is I'll be selling a lot more of those palms ... but TBH I would rather not be! :(

These base OS's should be at least 1875 prims to be useful in creating attractive landscapes or ocean reefs etc. I think LL needs to realize content creators have progressed beyond the 'flat' content like rotating textured fish schools etc, and the LL 1 prim trees are really outdated 2.5D content by a few years.

At 1875 prims and all the other capping (limited AV + scripts etc) they are talking about, they can host at least 6 (maybe 8) instead of 4. So they can reduce the tier to $50 EASILY and still make a fat profit.

Using them as empty "buffer-zones" - like I think you are describing above its ok, but who wants to look out onto something like that! In fact LL might do well to introduce a "buffer / void" type region for $25 with 468 prims and host about 16 on the same hardware as the current 4. They will be very popular. But very few can afford to pay $75 for a buffer / void! They should think more about the potential in marketing new products than abusing the customers already sold on the existing ones.


.


If you think it's a load of crap... You're not up to the challenge of building low prim . My sim did look good with 750 prims. Everybody said so, I'm sorry it's just the case.
Also... if you think it's a load of crap.... DON"T BUY IT! My my how simple some solutions are....

*edit* why take half the load of a sim away then put twice the number of sims on one server? Even the way they throw it at us is crap, performance needs to be higher on these sims, they are so so bad.
SAME load per sim -> less sims on a server, LESS load per sim -> same amount of sims. It's not rocket science. 4 OS sims DO NOT add up to one normal sim performance wise. scripts have WAY more impact on them, as much as ten times
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
11-08-2008 11:00
From: Kwakkelde Kwak
Also... if you think it's a load of crap.... DON"T BUY IT! My my how simple some solutions are....


Not such a simple solution after you've already purchased it though hey ;)
Kwakkelde Kwak
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 37
11-08-2008 11:07
From: Ciaran Laval
Not such a simple solution after you've already purchased it though hey ;)


No, but you can enjoy your purchase for half a year. I do know people who bought big numbers of them for business are screwed over yes, but the majority of the complainers here own one of them. Anyway...more reason to rent not buy, It's all I ever do. And yes that is because of LL's way of doing business
Jini Hammerer
The green chick
Join date: 22 Jul 2007
Posts: 196
11-08-2008 11:10
From: Mephistopheles McMinnar
You did, because it was in connection with my post about paragraph 1.7 from the TOS (that LL can raise prices at every time).



I don't agree. If a company figure out, that a offer couldn't be hold since the costs explodes, they can remove the offer or change the product so if it fits. Thats economy, no company want make wastages. The only point you can complain and whine at, is the way how LL did it. That wasn't a fair and good way.

But there is no point of return for your money. You leased a service "as is", this fact you can't wipe away. If you don't read the TOS from a company before you buy a thing or lease a service, it's your fault, not from the company.

What you think why i don't "buy" a SIM from LL? I live in germany and i couldn't agree to this TOS, so it's better for me to rent a spot for my needs - even if i could afford a SIM or more. But IF i would have a SIM with this TOS i would only complain about they way LL did the changes, because i have to accept the TOS and read them before.



Ohh i did lets see...


From: Jini Hammerer
TOS does not mean a damn thing..... LL already lost a TOS battle in a PA court once already.... TOS does not clear the way for illigal behavior or deceptive marketing either.

IF it did microsoft would own all our children by now LOL



Nope... not there... where in my post do i state matter of factly that Its Illegal to raise prices? i don't see it. Just cause you think thats what it says does not make it so....

Please this is pretty pointless... if you cant comprehend what was written then... sorry, but I never said its illegal to raise prices...
Bambi Newall
Registered User
Join date: 4 Nov 2008
Posts: 155
Definition of Bait and Switch
11-08-2008 11:36
Let's say you own an Openspace sim prior to Oct. 28, 2008 with 3750 prims for $75/month tier.

Now, if you have more than 750 prims in the same sim, on Jan. 5, 2009, you will be automatically "SWITCHED" to "Homestead", and pay $95/month and in July, 2009 you will pay $125/month.

If you want to maintain the same tier, you have to reduce from 3750 prims to 750 prims. That is the "BAIT".

Any question?
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
11-08-2008 11:38
From: Vryl Valkyrie
The other thing that I brought upon myself was thinking that I could have an intelligent conversation with people such as yourself who cannot handle a difference of opinions without resorting to personal attacks.
There you go, you see. The only opinion I've offered is that you lack intelligence, and you continue to demonstrate it. But just for the information, you *are* having intelligent conversations with them - you just don't recognise it. Which brings us back to what I said at the start - that in order to judge intelligence you must actually have some. You level of intelligence seems to be that, when someone disagrees with you, that person lacks intelligence, and that's no level at all.

From: Vryl Valkyrie
Lesson Learned, now move on.
I'm sorry but I don't wish to move on. Do you?
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
11-08-2008 12:21
From: Kwakkelde Kwak
No, but you can enjoy your purchase for half a year. I do know people who bought big numbers of them for business are screwed over yes, but the majority of the complainers here own one of them.
And there's the problem. From what we've seen in these threads, OS sims were so good that normal estate sims, and plots on them, could no longer be rented out, so the estate owners felt forced to get into OS sims if they wanted to remain in business. Other people were not able to buy OS sims. Those estate owners who have been screwed over through no fault of their own, because tenants won't stay on them. We've seen in these threads that LL was still selling them 2 days before the announcement, and probably right up to the announcement. Even now, people are being told by LL people that they can live on the 750 prim one, when Jack and M are saying that they can't.

Note:
I've never had an OS sim, so I'm not affected at all, which means that I'm viewing it from an unbiased perspective.
_____________________
Prim Savers - almost 1000 items of superbly crafted, top quality, very low prim furniture, and all at amazingly low prices.

http://slurl.com/secondlife/Seymour/213/120/251/
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-08-2008 12:31
From: Jini Hammerer
TOS does not mean a damn thing..... LL already lost a TOS battle in a PA court once already.... TOS does not clear the way for illigal behavior or deceptive marketing either.
If you're talking about the case I'm thinking of, LL lost because they were trying to do the right thing against someone who was ripping off LL *and* other residents by exploiting a bug in their auction system.

That's hardly the kind of precedent you want to invoke.
_____________________
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"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-08-2008 12:34
From: Ciaran Laval
I'm not a lawyer either and I don't think a bait and switch charge applies but Linden Lab have moved the whole affair closer to bait and switch with the new changes because people purchased an Openspace and now they're being told they've purchased a Homestead.
So you'd be happy with it if they'd decided to call the Homestead an Openspace and called the Openspace a Void?

No, I don't think so.

It's only a bloody name.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
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Gusher Castaignede
SL Builder
Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 342
11-08-2008 12:34
That's somewhat correct. Nobody on my end wanted to own parcels, they wanted BIG for similiar prices as parcles were, so they all left my Full Prim SIM and ordered OpenSpaces. What happened after that our Full Prim SIM became worthless. Yes, you can say we were screwed both from the devaluation)$1695 to $1000) and now with OpenSpaces. Whats next?








From: Phil Deakins
And there's the problem. From what we've seen in these threads, OS sims were so good that normal estate sims, and plots on them, could no longer be rented out, so the estate owners felt forced to get into OS sims if they wanted to remain in business. Other people were not able to buy OS sims. Those estate owners who have been screwed over through no fault of their own, because tenants won't stay on them. We've seen in these threads that LL was still selling them 2 days before the announcement, and probably right up to the announcement. Even now, people are being told by LL people that they can live on the 750 prim one, when Jack and M are saying that they can't.

Note:
I've never had an OS sim, so I'm not affected at all, which means that I'm viewing it from an unbiased perspective.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
11-08-2008 12:43
From: Argent Stonecutter
So you'd be happy with it if they'd decided to call the Homestead an Openspace and called the Openspace a Void?

No, I don't think so.

It's only a bloody name.



A name change with a decrease in performance and a price increase. So they aren't the same products we were sold.
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Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
11-08-2008 12:52
From: Argent Stonecutter
So you'd be happy with it if they'd decided to call the Homestead an Openspace and called the Openspace a Void?

No, I don't think so.

It's only a bloody name.


I said I don't think bait and switch applies, but it has more credence now than it did before because LL have changed the product. Their first announcement did not change the product.

Legal people get very picky about these small foibles.
AzA Zymurgy
Registered User
Join date: 1 May 2007
Posts: 32
The Second Life Symbol says it All.
11-08-2008 12:57
Look up at the top of the page..... see the Second Life hand?
Thats what we are talking to, .... the hand, cause LL most definitely isn't listening.
Kwakkelde Kwak
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2007
Posts: 37
11-08-2008 12:58
From: Phil Deakins
And there's the problem. From what we've seen in these threads, OS sims were so good that normal estate sims, and plots on them, could no longer be rented out, so the estate owners felt forced to get into OS sims if they wanted to remain in business. Other people were not able to buy OS sims. Those estate owners who have been screwed over through no fault of their own, because tenants won't stay on them. We've seen in these threads that LL was still selling them 2 days before the announcement, and probably right up to the announcement. Even now, people are being told by LL people that they can live on the 750 prim one, when Jack and M are saying that they can't.

Note:
I've never had an OS sim, so I'm not affected at all, which means that I'm viewing it from an unbiased perspective.


Yes I know, you are very right about that. Even switching back to normal sims for free is a very small offer by LL. But I cannot and will not deny the OSS have tremendous performance problems. Fixing that, in any way, is a good move. LL has/had to make a change.
Dealing with financial issues concerning (big) estates is another matter and I have said before: This sure smells fishy.
Equinox Pinion
Registered User
Join date: 11 Feb 2007
Posts: 101
11-08-2008 13:10
From: Vryl Valkyrie
I agree with you on this about maintaining the original VOid sims, prims included at the existing price.

However, I do not think there is a bait and switch here. Originally when this whole fiasco started, I also felt the same as you until some friends and I were talking about server costs. I honestly feel that LL could not have possibly projected the server load and costs incurred as a result of the huge response to the introduction of double prims on OP sims.

Bandwidth costs are astronomical. It has been reported that Youtube's bandwidth costs are from 1-3 million USD a month. To understand more about bandwidth costs, read here..

http://fishtrain.com/2008/01/17/the-impact-of-bandwidth-costs/

I am sure that LL has been honest with us concerning unexpected server load and incurred costs. They could not have possibly projected these costs since they had nothing to compare to.



Please...be real...do not compare Youtube bandwidth cost with Linden bandwitdh cost...thats a bit naive...do you know how many users Youtube has?? The reason for that price increase are not bandwidth cost....as one of their management members confirmed to me.
Mustafaaab Connoisseur
Defender Servants (DSTF)
Join date: 23 Jan 2007
Posts: 3
Bad Mistake... 175+ Virtual Worlds Existing
11-08-2008 13:23
With the number of virtual worlds growing 175+, I expected price decreases not increases.

The openspace sim is a great PR tool for people to get thier feet wet with sim ownership. I was preparing to get another open space, while preparing for my first full sim. All this because I had a chance at a reasonable price, to manage and understand an entire sim process and what it takes to be successful. The 3750 prim open space provides this for "newbie sim owners."

However never in my wildest dreams in a global recession, RL real estate depression, and major mounting virtual world competition,.... did I expect price increases like this. So most likely I will pull back from sim ownership and watch the developments here because faulty policy is being decided that could hurt SL a lot. I know I will now explore all the competitionout here where before that was not even on my mind.

The technology issue is still a major consideration however in SL's growth, with server limitations, number of avatars in a sim, lag and crashes. So they have to maximize a limited business model, what they have...I guess.

An easy solution to me is to grandfather all the existing SL Open space sims as is, and add the lower ability sims as an additional product. If they must raise prices, raise on NEW sims of both types, but grandfather price the existing. I still feel however that SL should be lowering prices not raising them to get as many new sims open as possible. SL costs should have been reduced greatly with the land store technology and the wave should begin again with new membership growth supported by easy and inexpensive land ownership.
Michelle Thurston
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jul 2006
Posts: 208
11-08-2008 13:50
From: Erinyse Planer
Not Good ENOUGH!

Counterpoint: It pretty much is.
Norman Tisch
Registered User
Join date: 17 May 2008
Posts: 3
11-08-2008 13:52
From: Briana Dawson
Argent, these days moving boats have over 1000 prims and attach to your body with the main piece of the boat build being a 31prim thing you sit on.

Pretty innovative and definitely a OS destroyer.


I don't think prims you where show up in the prim count on a sim do they?
Vander Reich
Registered User
Join date: 9 Oct 2008
Posts: 9
11-08-2008 13:55
From: Norman Tisch
I don't think prims you where show up in the prim count on a sim do they?



No, prims you "wear" do not show up on a SIM's prim count, but they definitely affect SIM performance.
Right Paean
bunnied to death
Join date: 21 Feb 2007
Posts: 15
Methinks M.Linden is 67% obsessed
11-08-2008 14:01
what M Lindens answer to life the universe and everything = 67

don't believe me heres the quote!!!!

http://technology.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/tech_and_web/article4987240.ece

From Page two

“Our economy in Second Life has been growing this year,” he said. “In the last 12 months its been up 67 per cent, which is a heck of a lot more than the real-world economy.”

HAHHAHAAHA SEE SEE THE CONSPIRACY IS THERE HAHAHA!!

I'M now off to shave my nether regions with a rabid ferret hahahahagibbergibbergibber

THEY'LL never catch me haha never NEVER!!

/me listens for M's telepathy messages in the forums. :) :):)
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-08-2008 14:05
From: Chris Norse
A name change with a decrease in performance and a price increase. So they aren't the same products we were sold.
Actually, if they do manage to throttle high resource use by lowering the limits on scripts and avatars in "the product formerly known as Openspace", you'll see a performance *increase* in "the product formerly known as Openspace".

Unless you were one of the people running Zyngo and 30 campers and 1000 prims worth of temp-rezzers in an Openspace.

But most people should see less lag.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-08-2008 14:07
From: Ciaran Laval
Legal people get very picky about these small foibles.
I'm not "legal people". I don't care if they call them Openspace, Homespace, HomestarRunnerSpace, LostInSpace, or OutOfSpace. And neither should you, unless you're planning on pushing the button marked "OMFG Release The Landsharks".
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
11-08-2008 14:10
From: Mustafaaab Connoisseur
With the number of virtual worlds growing 175+, I expected price decreases not increases.
I only know of half a dozen, unless you're calling everyone running OpenSim on a handful of servers "another virtual world", or unless you're counting the older 2d and text-based virtual worlds.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Soleana Teazle
Registered User
Join date: 18 Sep 2005
Posts: 5
Open Space Sims
11-08-2008 14:10
From what I have seen open space has been designed exactly as the name implies low use areas for beauty and low avatar count. I have never seen an open space that performs with more than 4 or 5 avatars occupying. I know some of you think they do but in comparison to full Islands they do not. There is no physical way they can as they do not have the resources needed.

I have also seen some very nice builds that use less than the new low requirement but I do agree 750 is a bit low while the 1875 is too high. At a 1200 count you would have enough overhead if you built well and considerately of you fellow players on your server.

The open space islands that I have seen that take advantage of others in the game are very over built with many scripts and many stationary avatars on camping platforms, the worst of these are the dance pads that require a continuous update of data to track the motion.

As with everything there are those inconsiderate individuals that will take advantage of every loop hole presented to them. Thus Linden Lab is closing the loop holes, no different than any other case of a few misusing resources.

I do not always agree with the way they do business but I try to look from both sides of the issue and the view from their side is just as bad as the view from the users side.

Lets face it something has to be done for the grid, and yes I know there are many things on this plate but since the inception of the poorly planned Open Sim release things have definitely degraded game wide

Oh I also do not reply to re quotes so don't bother.
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