Open Spaces Announcement & Talk with M and Jack Linden

Actually there is a really big boating community here.

Hi Coventina!



Bravo. Finally, someone who recognises that you get more with sugar than with vinegar. The drama over these announcements has placed anyone with a voice of reason directly in the path of a horde of angry trolls.



Fair enough! I never claimed that the new policy is perfect. I just think we should first acknowledge that Linden has done something today which was not required of them. Now, let's look at your ideas for further revision.......




I think the real reason why Linden has overcommitted their resources is this: There is more than one way to peg a server. 15000 prims will definitely peg a sim even with a low agent count; similarly, 100 agents with almost no prims will definitely peg a sim. The limits are set to allow flexibility for some sort of balance between prims and agents. But to claim that you should be able to max out both is just begging for Linden to crack down on the limits so that you can max out both your prims and your agents, and still get good performance. But that is basically shooting ourselves in the foot, because then we get less flexibility. People who DO want the flexibility lose it because of the complaints of a few.



Interesting idea. However, this is technically unsound. If you try and place more than two heavily loaded OpenSpaces on a single class 5 server, it will peg. In order to keep these servers from being totally unusable, you're basically saying, "give the heavy users more server resources for their money". No thanks; that's unfair.

I agree that they do need some sort of load balancing, but there is a special mathematics to load balancing which requires precise resource monitoring, and the ability to rapidly move a sim from running on one server to another (albeit possibly with a slight lag disruption - an interesting engineering challenge).




Thanks for this information. I might check out your gadget. I'm interested in learning how it works.



The only thing that bugs me is that it is very easy for technically uninformed residents to misinterpret qualitative terms like "abuse". Also, there is a growing trend in technology businesses, in general, for consumers and companies to have a semantic disconnect on the term limit.

Consumers expect that, if they push their usage to the limit (which is technically enforced), they should be able to sustain that limit because they are paying to have that limit pushed to a certain level.

Corporations, on the other hand, expect that users will usually not use all of the resources given to them, and when a vast number of users do push the service to the limit, there is often a corporate backlash to attempt to solve the problem of overcommitment of resources. This is exactly the same problem we have with high-demand ISP networks today, such as 3G, EvDO, and DSL. For example, Verizon cites their EvDO network as having an "unlimited" monthly data plan, but if you go over a certain limit, you start receiving nasty letters threatening to disconnect you from the service. This is a prime example of the miscommunication.

What is needed is a agreement on semantics and a quantitative approach to resource usage and limitations. The new quantitative measures should be made with the future's best interests in mind, rather than attempting to preserve unrealistic price points. I believe Linden understands this need fairly well, which is why they are now imposing technical restrictions on resource consumption so that there is less ambiguity. I also anticipate that their policies will be more explicit on terms like "abuse", so that residents who are not as educated as yourself on the technical limits of computer systems will now be clearer on what is expected of their usage.



All of these final suggestions are very reasonable. I sure hope the Lindens will listen to these moderate suggestions and implement them; these are logical and reasonable recommendations that do not push Linden's expenses too far, because they do not demand the order-of-magnitude sort of rubber banding that other interested parties are so vehemently demanding.

All in all, I congratulate you on a well-informed post... and I want to echo to the Lindens that I support this kind of methodical analysis of the situation, with the goal of setting reasonable, pragmatic and compromising limits, not the goal of simply allowing the existing problem to grow out of control.

SL boating has always been important. I use to Jet Ski across the continent using waterways in 2004 when SL expanded, and in 2003 Stampshady used to love boating around the grid with whoever would join him. When i owned a huge swath of Hawthorne i preserved the waterways and was in a group that specifically acquired land for the sole person of waterway preservation.

Boats are HUGE in SL.

I also feel that if there is to be an openspace by LL's definition that is soooo light use, then $75 was too much to begin with and should not be the starting point for pricing light use sims.

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http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=bpc&group=17001-18000&file=17500-17509

I'm not an attorney, but as far as I know, LL was selling Open Spaces with the prim allotment of 3750 and tier payments of 75 USD a month up until very recently, if they are not still selling them at that price today. Somehow, I doubt that this change in pricing happened without some forethought on the part of LL, therefore, if I interpret California legal definitions correctly....I would definitely categorize this as a Bait and Switch. More importantly, as many have pointed out, Bait and Switch does not only apply to the sale of real property, but to the provision of services.


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United Sailing Sims has 126 linked sims of navigable water. There are several sailing clubs, which hold races weekly and teach classes, as sailing in SL (using SL's wind) can be fairly trickly.

There are also regattas just for fun!

Go exploring! Lookup Starboards yacht club, or visit the SL Sailing website http://slsailing.com/

All I see after reading about these changes are the benefits to LL. I see nothing that will encourage people in the future to buy land or even keep the land they have.

I have 1/8th of a full sim in an estate that comprises of the 1 full sim and 7 OS sims.

The estate owner is a wonderful person who has built a great community. There are no Malls, Night clubs or high use of scripts. The only people that use the sims are the residents who sometimes have a few friends visit. Most of the time the sims are empty.

I am surrounded by water which I can use for sailing/swimming or just sit on the beach looking at and relaxing.

It will be a shame to see this all go when the Os sims are 'Converted' to 1 or 2 (If the Estate manager is willing to pay for the upgrade) Full sims + the original Full sim.

I feel even more for the few people living on the OS sims who will lose thier homes or have to move to a full sim with less land.

I am just waiting now for an announcement from LL for a huge price hike for Full Sims. I am expecting this after all of the present changes are foisted upon us...What do you mean they would never do that? They can do whatever they like as you can see by reading thier announcements and the replies.

How many SIMs run on a server at openlife?
How many openspace SIMs run on a server at secondlife?

Answer one: 1
Answer two: 4 on one core, 16 on a quadcore

Back to openlife.
You have havok4? No
You have LSL? No
You have MONO? No

Anything of this needs CPU power and bandwith (keep in mind, scripts are stored on the asset server). If Linden Lab provides exact the same things like openlife, LL could charge the same prices. Don't compare apples with strawberrys.

Openlife has physics that make the original Havok1 look like a miracle of design, they implement about 1/3 of the scripting calls, and even on an empty sim you can get problems with inventory and response that remind me of the blackest period in 2006.

)) well go play there with the 67 others on line from the customer base of 5k or I have been there and it compares to SL in 2000 if even that. If they do become successful see how long your 45000 prim land lasts. Oh wait, they will need a large investment for that also ))

If your landlord forced you to move, then get your landlord to make good and give you the original deal back.

Bait and Switch

Elani Petrov: The issue wasn't when they raised prices, it is when they lowered them. They halved the cost and doubled the prims in March. They spent the summer taking setup fees, and now this. It doesn't matter how they phase it in, this is obviously a severe change, effecting the value and transferability of the service they baited people into buying under different terms.

Bait: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/03/07/announcing-changes-to-the-openspace-product/

Switch: http://blog.secondlife.com/2008/10/27/openspace-pricing-and-policy-changes/


And I know that there will be people who will claim 8 months is plenty of time, but I think the purchase of "land" with a reasonably sizable setup fee and monthly commitment implies more use than that. That being if you bought it at the beginning, there were people buying them three weeks ago that I know personally.

LL should accept they overreached, if indeed they did, leave current owners with the service they thought they were getting, and begin selling whatever new service they want. The only ethical thing to do is allow people to have what they bought, and if they want to raise prices gradually in a non-punitive fashion that doesn't wreck the value of the service THEY advertised, so be it.

dont say stupid stuff u dont know. if u are trying to defend LL make a shirt and go walk with it on sl. Thousands of dollares we payed to LL isnt teens deal and we have rights not just what they want and what they decide everyday. One day they decide this and next day other thing and have been like this for months. Real money that ppl payed here isnt drama.

Nothing... it was only a coment...you don't crash and i do but i know cause my pc.
But they told us OS were causing damages to the grid and that is why they were going to charge us more... now they tell us the grid is great and you do not crash anymore long time ago so... the damage of "abusing" OS it is not so bad cause the system is great and people do not crash but they still want us to pay more money for less resources since the "damage". I read a contradicition... i do not know if you too.

SL in 2000? uhm... Wasnt SL created in 2003? hahahaha u really know what u talking about! 67 users? for what ive seen, numbers will go grow fast. Ive talked with many ppl there already and i just loged there one hour ago and they all come from sl and for the same reasons.

And ppl are moving their business already, slowly but they are moving them to OPENLIFE

The reduction to 750 prims is unacceptable. The old 1875 is acceptable.... for people who owned original openspaces, Linden Labs is basically increasing the price and reducing the product. My mind is boggled by the strange leaps of logic that Linden Labs goes through on these proposals.

Ok, i just read through the knowledgebase document https://support.secondlife.com/ics/support/KBAnswer.asp?questionID=5650
i see that conversion is free of conversion fee until Jan 09 - ok thats great. One thing they did right.

Can someone PLEASE explain to me "You still need to own a Private region to buy an Openspace or Homestead." WTF I - as an owner of not one but TWO mainland sims cannot buy a Homestead???? Clearly Homesteads are not meant to be OS (next to an island), so, why is it necessary to own an ISLAND, why isn't a mainland sim enough? It's a #$%#$ unenlightened policy! COME ON LINDENS, PLEASE FINISH BAKING THIS PLAN! BAGH! /me grumbles and stomps away in disgust.


/me turns back for one last rant to Jack Linden. Look, you have a whole hell of a lot of people all stirred up, the sales, conversions and stuff is gonna be killer for the next month. You could save a whole lot of people a lot of heartache and cost if you made it where anyone can own a Homestead. In fact, I would go so far as to suggest that you reduce the transfer cost of an OS to about $25 bucks, and allow them to go to any premium member.

ONE it would increase the chances that people who need to can get out of their sims if they need to, and it would allow those who have had too large a barrier of entry to get themselves in on the ground floor. It may not be a win-win situation but at least its not a lose-lose. The simple fact of the matter is you guys screwed the pooch, live up to it, own it and help people to get themselves settled again so that this is behind us all.

TWO making it so any premium member can own a Homestead would increase your membership again (seems to me its been falling, as people rent from the big landlords and then don't need their premium accounts anymore).

THREE it would take out the landlords a bit by letting people really OWN their piece of SL. All these changes have got landlords running scared. I am concerned about how many people are going to be finding themselves screwed by landlords who throw their hands up and close their sims leaving their tenants homeless and "virtually" destitute. Make it so the people renting the current OS sims could buy CHEAPLY AND EASILY from their landlord. Everybody wins and the land barons who really have gone out on a limb with you guys can at least back out gracefully. Plus, they would probably pay about the same as they pay now, but pay it to LL directly instead of a middle man. The end renter would feel very little pain. That would be a definite upside imo.

No matter what you do Dear Lindens, you will not make everybody happy, but this is YOUR FAULT not us citizens. YOU set the limits, YOU sold the land and set the expectations. YOU raised the prim limit in the first place (I wont ask what you were thinking). Sure the reality of the situation is that things have to change but you have a serious PR issue on your hands here. That free grid is looking a hell of a lot better to people... You best work harder to find ways to appease your loyal citizens.

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And one last thing. If you are adding product lines, how about a double/commercial sim? For businesses - places like Sinewave and Redgrave and their ilk who need to have more than 40-50 people in their sim?! Might be a nice carrot for those of us with commercial sims.

Oh the mono!! they took ages to bring mono and still... well... same sh**t.
And companies can grow like LL did at our costs.
Like ive said before, we (users) we made and still make SL.

Maybe they said 750 so you get upset and they sell you the idea to change to 1875 so you will be happy.

I've discussed it with my lawyer, and the cause of action that he suggested would most likely fit is Breach of Implied Contract. If people have chat logs from thier live help sessions where Lindens were advising them that shops and homes were fine on openspace sims, it would go a long way toward proving the case.

Based on those chat logs, there could also be a false advertising angle, but I didn't talk to the lawyer about that one.

I won't be paying my lawyer to go after LL, but there's a starting point for anyone that might be thinking about it.

And then maybe look at renting a boat to live on instead of my beautiful openspace!!

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No, it isn't when they lowered prices....it is when they began to discuss raising them or changing the service/product that they were offering. Giving LL the benefit of the doubt, let's say that when LL changed the product in March that they planned on leaving it as it was...then they began to see changes in the grid peformance, and they decided that it was no longer possible for them to support Open Space sims as they were selling them. At that point, they begin selling products/services which they knowingly were no longer going to support at the level they were selling them...or they were going to switch out for a lesser product. Each sim that they sold after those internal discussions began, or each full sim which they allowed to be divided into open spaces would be considered a bait and switch - IMHO


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funny - and not "any SIM" you visit, only SIMs where scripts are enabled. If it isn't, you see nothing


To use a high and bad scripted gadget to find out how "healthy" a SIM really is, thats really strange. The OS runs alot faster without the SIM and Performance Scanner from Thomas Conover. I don't care about it.

But you can check with system tools how healthy a SIM is. Just hit ctrl + shift + 1 (on windows pc's) for the statistics bar. There you can see some important informations. There is a section "Simulator" this shows you the performance in realtime

Time Dilation - shold be as best 1.0, but most you have 0.99.
If the time dilation goes under 0.90 you will feel the first light lag.

SIM FPS - should be constant within a range from 43 to 45. If it goes under 40 you feel lag

Physics FPS - should also be between 43 to 45. If this number is lower then SIM FPS, you have many moving physical objects in your SIM = produces lag

On the end you see "Time", click on it and it will expand. Look at Agent Time and Images Times. This shows you how long the updates to each user needs.

Script Time - a very important number. Should be less then 22.0, otherwise you have alot of lag because too many bad scripts.

I know also, that a user with a low bandwith can slowdown a SIM, because the SIMs are designed to keep all avatars on the same speed. The slowest user affect the performance. That the reason why LL says "broadband internet access is necessary".

The statistics bar is more accurate then the toy from Thomas Conover - and it works everywhere on the Grid.

well, M-Linden wrote, a forest would be also a private openspace. the thing is, you can't create a forest with 750 prims. just with the linden-trees. normal looking trees needs from 14 up to 36 and more prims per tree. and the stones, little and medium plants and so on.

so.... forests and parks are not an openspace.