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Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Janey Suen
Registered User
Join date: 23 Oct 2006
Posts: 1
10-28-2008 15:45
Did LL really intended people to pay 75 bux a month for "void spaces" which won't be used?

I've live on a 1/4 openspace sim of which I think all the other sims on the server are also quiet residential and its always ran great for me.

How can residences be to blame anyways? I don't see how 16 people living on 4 open space sims or 16 people living on 1 regular sim make any difference, it uses the same server.

Anyways, people like me are just looking for privacy, and not to have thier own building efforts ruined by the crap thier neighbors put up.

Why not just have a flag you can set on a parcal that makes it so you can't see the rest of the sim, and neither outside see you? (I guess because getting away from crap is what drives people to buy more sims. Most of the grid's a ghost town. Then when you find blobs of people they're camping alts. Virtual popularity for a virtual world oO?)
Pathfinder Scribe
Registered User
Join date: 5 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
Please don't hit education in this way
10-28-2008 15:48
Jack, this decision needs some more very careful thought.

The potential for SL to become a major education platform is considerable, and it is a long way from that right now. Heavily geared to design and technology subjects, there is now an opportunity to expand beyond the 'early apopters' in education and get SL into every classroom, every university department (not just maths and IT) and into public youth and adult education, especially for young people over 18 who have left school with poor qualifications. The current education in SL is fair to good - we need to make it exceptional.

To fund world class education on SL requires those of us with rhino-thick skins and an inability to hear the word, 'no' to relentlessly pursue microscopic budgets. My organisation, The Institute of Human Development is weeks away from launching a new region here - currently awaiting the first island from Jay Linden - and we are a hair's breadth away from persuading government and the LSC to invest in this project. With the budget now blown apart by your decision, we are going to face a very tough time. What do we cut? The content, the entertainment that engages participation, the live events from world gurus, the space to allow people to learn and reflect in a truly immersive environment, the space we have for stractegic (marketing) partners who also become new potential customers of Linden Labs? Your advice, please :-)

Mark Kingdon is doing the rounds of confereces, promoting the value of SL widely. To now raise the bar just as new educators are getting interested and just as the economy hits a crisis point seems completely inexplicable.

There are other ways to make certain that commercial landowners do not abuse the policy; please do not drive away passionate and visionary educators where - literally - every pound, dollar and liden dollar counts.

Our own venture on SL needs scale - and needs space to attract the partners to make the whole project inspirational and impactful. We cannot possibly swallow the miantenance price rises you have announced. If we do manage to get increased funding now for the capital costs, it is the maintenance that will shipwreck us.

Adrian Gilpin (Pathfinder Scribe)
Chairman
Institute of Human Development, UK & Middle East
Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
10-28-2008 15:48
From: Chaz Longstaff
Well, if you're going to take that approach, I would say to raise the tier fees of people on Mainland so they can pay more of their fair share, too..... starting with your tiers :}
LL makes a killing on mainland tiers and depending on how many different land owners are in a mainland sim, they can actually make much more than what they make on private island tiers.

OSRs were never sold or packaged as an alternative to mainland parcels or full sims. I have looked at all official postings about openspace and nowhere was it ever billed as mid-ranged alternative to mainland or private island living. People took advantage of the OSRs, like a sort of "loophole" and now LL is closing that loophole.
Thasius Vaher
Registered User
Join date: 15 Jun 2008
Posts: 33
10-28-2008 15:49
PEOPLE! Forget server usage, memory statistics and anything else related in any way shape or form to performance. This is about ONE thing and ONE thing only. Money. If it was about anything else a solution tailored to fix that problem would of been used. The issue is financial. Sadly the ToS basically allows Linden Labs to do all but touch your private parts before you can sue them.

If you don't like it, vote with your feet. OpenSim is the way forward.
Asuna Kaligawa
SCC Security Officer
Join date: 20 Sep 2008
Posts: 15
10-28-2008 15:49
After seeing all the penalize the abusers....that sounds purrfect! PENALIZE THE ABUSERS NOT THE PROPER USERS!!!
Jackson Rickenbacker
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2006
Posts: 601
Regarding script use on Openspaces
10-28-2008 15:52
I have always limited openspaces sims to what I considered sensible. It takes 4 Openspaces to equal one full sim, in price and prims, so therefore a openspace has 1/4th the power of a full sim, thats not rocket science.

If a full class 5 sim fully developed runs at 8.0 MS on top scripts, then it makes sense that a openspace should run at 2 MS top scripts, anything over that, and scripts have to be cut back...

Any Estate owner that is worth thier meddle knows about this and shouldnt be cowing on what is the Mystic number...

YOU WANT A MYSTIC NUMBER its 2.0 MS, of your opensim is running over 2.0 MS in top scripts your part of the problem, fix it and maybe, LL will shut up about it....

We cant fix a problem unless we are educated, and sadly LL has failed us greatly on educating us
_____________________
Jackson
http://secondlifesims.com
Chaz Longstaff
Registered User
Join date: 11 Oct 2006
Posts: 685
10-28-2008 15:52
From: Zuba Zenovka
:-(

1 X full sim =15,000 and $295.00 tier per month.
4 x open space @ 3750 prims each = 15,000 and $500.00 tier per month.


So clearly, what's coming next is an increase on that $295 price also to deal with abuse, etc, (insert reason here.)

If I owned a full sim, I would throw all my business plans out the window. You can't rely on LL.
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Thread attempting to compile a list of which animations are freebies, and which are not:

http://forums.secondlife.com/showthread.php?t=265609
DR Dahlgren
Content Creator
Join date: 27 Aug 2006
Posts: 79
Some thoughts after 92 pages
10-28-2008 15:53
I read through most of the posts here, though yes I did skim through a few. I find it remarkable that LL has managed to alienate almost everyone on this issue, no matter their position.

Jack, do these posts give you even a remote idea that something in this policy is not right?

Way to go! I can see the Headline after the proper spin has been applied -

"LL Fosters Unity in Virtual World...."

So how do posts line up? Overwhelmingly the posts are against the LL decision, though for basically two disperate reasons by two polar opposites.

1) They are the people who used the OpenSpace Sims as some kind business property (against the stated purpose or use guidlines) and feel LL is killing their business. While I do not have much simpathy here, I do agree that guidlines or suggested uses are not the same as rules and are not binding. So while they used them in unintended ways, they were free to do so under the present policy regarding OS Sims.

2) They are the folks who used the sims in a appropriate manner and now feel that the new pricing makes them too expensive for their intended purpose. Kudos to these folks. They have used OS Sims to ad beauty and usefulness to SL. Strange that LL should want to penalize them for this!

I really do not expect LL to heed the call here and rethink their stand on this issue. I can only recalled them doing that once in the years I have been involved here. That was when they recently put the TOOLS menu back after an overwhelming call to do so, and it took them what, 6 mths and 4 viewer releases to do it?

While I do not own any OS Sims or private estates as I am quite content on my mainland parcels, if I am silent when LL does something like this to others, who will speak out when they do something like it to me, and I know they will, they have in the past.

I will call again for a little sanity and clear thinking, though I do not hold out any hope it will be considered.

1) Don't mess with the pricing structure on the OS Sims! Stand by your original pricing and fix the problem. Encourage those who have used the OS Sims in an appropriate manner to create green / water space, parks, etc. by preserving the OS Sims as intended and not by penalizing them for following the guidlines and original intended use.

2) Take the original guidlines for the intended use of the OS Sims and use them to create Binding RULES of USE.

3) Take the time to target those who are using these sims in a manner not intended for them and give them until Jan 1, 2009 to come into complience, sell, abandon or transfer the sim, or have it confiscated. Give all OS Sim owners until Jan 1, 2009 to agree to the binding Rules of Use document or forfeit the sims.

4) Direct the LL staff to set RULES for use, rather than GUIDLINES the next time they decide to create something new in SL such as the OS Sims. Had there been a clear set of USE RULES for the OS Sims, this would never have happened.

Now to me, that would be the correct way to resolve this issue.

DRD
_____________________
DR Dahlgren
Dahlgren Engineering and Design
Connecting Your Worlds
Bryon Ruxton
Registered User
Join date: 8 Aug 2006
Posts: 23
A little history and perspective!
10-28-2008 15:54
Folks,

To be fair to M Linden or Jack, if someone needs to step down or be fired because of this, the scapegoat already HAS stepped down.

The policy was initiated in March 7th, 2008, and Philip Linden resigned shortly thereafter making his announcement to find a new CEO on March 14th, 2008.

Whether this specific policy was a significant reason for the decision is another story. But bear in mind that the flawed initial policy was made while Philip was still in charge as executive CEO.

The sad part for everybody is that this seems to be the right reversal decision to take to restore the balance with mainland and estates and fix the lack of initial enforcement measures placed in regards to openspaces. To the point of ending non-profit educator discounts however is a shame on the part of LL's current management.

But let's not think that Jack or other Lindens are dumb enough to recognize the conflict behind the reasoning presented. i.e. If you are going to address the abuse of resources, then you can't be raising the price in a very significant way at the same time, while telling the press that there is "No credit crunch in 'Second Life'" as a sound justification for it all. It's kind of obvious that there is more to it...

On one hand, I would have preferred LL acknowledging its own previous mistakes rather that to put the blame on its own customers in such fashion. (not that there isn't any blame to go around for the inevitable abuse of some, deliberate or not). On the other hand, I can't blame M Linden for minimizing the blame on Philip's old policy while reversing it, with Philip sitting as Chairman of the board. It’s hard to blame your boss.

M Linden is gonna have to keep playing catch-up with poor initial policies of the past or lack thereof. Don't shoot the messenger!

Oh by the way, Philip!
You still have "CEO" mentioned in your profile!
Keep "Blame it all on me. :)" though, it's still quite appropriate here. No offense!
Jake Nitely
Registered User
Join date: 23 Nov 2007
Posts: 1
Punish all for the few?
10-28-2008 15:54
I can understand and empathize with you on the issue of abuse that triggered this reaction, however what steps were taken to address the abusers prior to this announcement? It sounds to me that either we are all being punished for the few, or this may be driven by an economy that is already in a tailspin. At any rate there are thousands of residents here that have learned to live within their means that now have a choice to either leave or downsize thus limiting what they are accustomed to. At this point I am flipping a coin. This is just to broad a brush stroke when you look at a 67% increase. I hope you take our concerns to heart and rethink this huge encumbrance you contemplate adding to our lives here.
Shila Szondi
Registered User
Join date: 26 May 2007
Posts: 13
Openspace Increase..thanks for the notice
10-28-2008 15:54
As an owner of two full sims, and 6 openspaces, I have to say that I am now completely disillusioned with S/L and will make moves to dump my land before the increase. It seems many others are also taking this path as the number of sims for sale has increased substantially. In an economy where people are struggling, you added the straw to the camels back. I wont cry when you lose my 1000.00 a month in tiers, but will you?

Enjoy your increase S/l for in the end you will lose a lot more revenue from those of us that have been loyal to you.
Babe Daligdig
Registered User
Join date: 29 Sep 2005
Posts: 27
10-28-2008 15:54
From: Celeste Auer
Did you miss the boat? Many of us JUST yesterday paid that to convert them the opposite way as that is what people want, they do not want Bekka Jones having her yard sale out their bay window!. We maintain them, we enforce them for light use and they have no lag.. there is no abuse here... your missing the whole point. People invested in them as tennants can not pay a 67% increase, they have no choice but to abandon them in turn the estate owners have no choice but to fork out another $100 USD to LL now to change them back or pay another $200 a month... lets see that makes LL $200 to the plus and estate owners -$200 to the minus...... can you see the math? now try that times 20.

I tend to agree with someone earlier.... non owners of any open space sims as estate owners or residents have no business on this thread, you get comments like that


try timing that by 100 .. sighs !! they charge us 100 to convert our full prim sims to 4 open spaces CAUSE they stuffed up the market for full prim sims, NO ONE wants them and they were empty cause the Q2 pricing. NOW we have to pay them another 100usd to convert them back to what we had them at before LL stuffed up.. eh something aint right here???
Sinji Itokawa
Registered User
Join date: 5 Nov 2006
Posts: 3
Oh I found it.
10-28-2008 15:55
From: Jack Linden
First of all, thanks for keeping the comments constructive, it helps a lot. We know that announcements like this are never easy and we do not make such changes lightly. I've read through the 500+ comments this morning and would like to respond to some of the points.

We believe in Openspaces as a product, but the pricing just wasn't in line with how they are now being used. Just to be clear, this isn't a small minority of Openspaces either, as a general rule they are much more heavily loaded than, for example, the equivalent Linden voids.

Some people have used the word 'punish' in relation to the changes. These changes aren't about punishment at all, we simply have to recognise the change of use and the widely detrimental effect this is having on user experience. We believe these changes are necessary to better account for the increased load, so that we can continue to scale this product *without* making performance worse for everyone.

@Melody Regent: It has always been the case that a private island or openspace can have a different Owner then Payor. So the person appearing to own the region inworld, would not be the same person that is billed for the region. Estate owners use this to lease out whole regions in a way that bestows the full island owner feature set to someone. There is more explanation in the knowledgebase.

Some people have suggested a technical throttle, a hard limit on scripts, avatars and so on. We've certainly discussed that and will continue to do so as we think about how to address very specific needs. It could be that with the right technical restrictions in place that a truly light use product at lower cost is viable.

@Winter Ventura: I agree, and we will certainly be looking at different usage types and thinking about how we provide the right products for those going forward. Clearly for many people large areas of land are more attractive than prim count for example.

@Otenth Paderborn: Yes, we will provide guidance on what load level is reasonable for Openspaces as soon as we can.


More replies to come.



Sill does not explain the original post that states that nothing is actually being changed except the price of tier and the hiring of more personel to "proactively educate" us in the proper use of our openspace sims....we're not actually getting anything WORTH the increase in price, no improvement, nothing. of any value that we didn't already have for 75$ a month.


???
Sindy Tsure
Will script for shoes
Join date: 18 Sep 2006
Posts: 4,103
10-28-2008 15:55
From: Chaz Longstaff
I have no idea why people such as Snowflake and Sindy Tsure have decided to gloat over everyone else's misfortunes

Making stuff up does bad things for your credibility, Chazzy.

Nowhere have I "gloated" about any of this. I wasn't really surprised to see this move by LL and I really have no sympathy for people who have been abusing the system but nowhere have I gloated.
-------------------------------------
I've heard that Chaz Longstaff eats kittens and puppies for dinner every night and secretly dresses up as Lord Voldemort in RL. What's up with that, Chaz? I guess there are some in every crowd...
Takiro Lowey
Registered User
Join date: 4 Jun 2008
Posts: 2
10-28-2008 15:56
Quote from the blog entry

Rather than being employed as open areas like ocean with little or no content and traffic,
We will increase the monthly maintenance fee from USD$75

Some math: 16 sims on a quad machine for 75$ that according to their buisness plan where supposed to do next to nothing should cost: 1200$ a month

Another flaw I see in your argumentation:

You state:
the majority are being rented out to residents looking for a place to live.

Well, the places where I see my friends 'live' usually have an average of 2-3 avatars a day. Some houses, a little garden, water. So where does that produce the traffic increase you where not aware of?

Excuses Excuses ?
foxmenn Cortes
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jun 2008
Posts: 5
10-28-2008 15:56
From: Thasius Vaher
PEOPLE! Forget server usage, memory statistics and anything else related in any way shape or form to performance. This is about ONE thing and ONE thing only. Money. If it was about anything else a solution tailored to fix that problem would of been used. The issue is financial. Sadly the ToS basically allows Linden Labs to do all but touch your private parts before you can sue them.

If you don't like it, vote with your feet. OpenSim is the way forward.




agree totaly !!!!!!!
deano Indigo
Registered User
Join date: 3 Sep 2007
Posts: 1
Wtf
10-28-2008 15:56
Thanks Jack...

Now my tier goes from $113.00 per month to $160.00 per month. You just made SL much less enjoyable and for what gain, I hope you choke on the extra income, too bad it won't be my money any longer.
Robin Randwick
Registered User
Join date: 24 Oct 2006
Posts: 1
(Un)intended consequences
10-28-2008 15:57
Let me simply echo those who see this as a reaction to slumping mainland sales, to force people back to "Linden owned" land. As many have pointed out, if Open Space was meant to be "open", why was the prim limit doubled? Why was placement away from existing full sims permitted? Why were single sim purchases allowed?

It's clear Linden envisioned these spaces becoming extremely popular as private residences, then dropped the bombshell. Was it all pre-meditated? Ummm, seems reasonable to ask the question doesn't it? How was one expected to utilize the prims? With 3,725 shrimp and a small boat?

If this were truly about usage and performance, don't you think there would have been at least ONE request, warning or post from Linden reminding everyone of the "limits" of Open sims?

Well, I for one am done. LL will be getting my open sim back next month. Instead of getting $75 of my money each month, I'll reduce my costs to around $40 or so with a nice 4096 plot somewhere. SL is fun, but it's not THAT fun.

Way to go LL..... not.
Johnnie Wendt
Registered User
Join date: 18 Jun 2006
Posts: 1
Open Space sports
10-28-2008 15:58
Jack,
Before the advent of Open Space sims I had become very frustrated with attempting to fly or sail within SL. In fact, given the problems of ban line, prim heavy installations etc on the mainlands and on mainland oceans I was considering leaving SL for Entropia or other virtual worlds which I monitor.
The advent of Open Space sims, however, changed all that giving me the ability to sail for two hours or more without real lag or sim crossing problems in Sims such as those belonging to the united sailling sims teams and others.
They changed my whole experience of SL, giving me secluded and often almost deserted places in which to wander, unlike the mainland experience I had been having previously.
With their often spectacular sights they gave me a desire to remain in SL rather than moving to another world which has better graphics and less lag and fewer users, such as Entropia.

With your decision to up the pricing of open space sims to non economic levels in a time of economic downturn I'm afraid that we are going to lose those places which have made Sl a more attractive place for me as owners abandon them because of cost.
It would have been better, I feel sure that, if instead of raising the cost of these sims and the maintenance charges, your organisation had cut further back on the prim quotas allowed for them to take load off your servers.
Your latest move to my mind lacks both economic foresight and business savvy.
When the move comes to pass I for one will be looking for other worlds... or at least
may only keep a Tp site - developments permitting - within SL for my OpenSim where I will live and sail.
Cheers Johnnie Wendt
Tequlia Tapioca
Second Life Resident
Join date: 22 Oct 2004
Posts: 116
Nothing new really but need to say it anyway
10-28-2008 15:59
It was a big deal as I remember it.

When they announced they were doubling prim on the open spaces and RAISING the price to buy them. That was some time ago and I guess things change.

What can't be disputed is that Linden set the limits on these sims.

We are not supposed to use what we bought and paid/pay for? 1,250 - 1,650 for a 4 pack and 200 - 300 for the tiers on those 4 packs.

Well I have 12 open spaces with my partner for fun. We like or should I say liked space. Of 12 open spaces 1 might be considered to push up against limits at times while the others are very low to moderate use. Mostly very low.

Regardless, they set the limits. They increased the resources allowed and then pulled the land value down. They caused their load issues and now expect we should accept 100% and 150% increases in tiers?

I don't know. I just don't see the a chance of success with this business case.
_____________________
*hugsssssssssss, Teq
Ralph Doctorow
Registered User
Join date: 16 Oct 2005
Posts: 560
This is an unfortunate development
10-28-2008 16:01
As a pretty longtime resident with no open sims, I must say that I find LL's willingness to stiff a whole lot of its customers like this pretty discouraging.

Since there was no attempt to alleviate the stated problem, this has all the appearance of a classic bait and switch and makes me wonder what else is LL has in store for us.

In any event, it certainly shows a pretty nasty attitude towards their customers which has been the case off and on for several years. Recently it had seemed to be getting a bit better, but apparently there's been another regression.

Long term, I doubt the viability of any organization whose corporate culture features contempt for it's customers.
DaAngel Roussel
Registered User
Join date: 2 Mar 2008
Posts: 2
Financial Nightmare
10-28-2008 16:01
I owned mainland land. A tiny block with huge buildings either side, ban lines and loads of lag. I couldnt move at all, you could haar the neighbours making love no ocean no sunlight. Wasnt like that when i bought it. It was a beautiful piece of land surrounded by water small yes but real nice. Till the neighbours moved in. I'd spent a fortune not only on membership (Im too ill to work) but also on the land. I put it on the market and it took months to sell. My partner and I bought an 1/4 quarter sim of paradise. We will be moving. No doubt we wont be able to sell. SL was a refuge from the real world where we could enjoy each others company. Now its just become a financial nightmare. Damn Im going to miss it.
Netuno Scofield
Registered User
Join date: 12 Jul 2007
Posts: 15
Support for change OPENSPACE to FULLSIM
10-28-2008 16:03
When the island openspace to buy Linden warned that it was not running in dedicated server but did not speak anything about politics to use the openspace, I do not agree with the measures made now, I think a government ruling for the life of many residents who planned its business in Up to that gave us as possible.

Now what do I get a little less upset with the permission would be low cost to transform 4 island openspace on an island full, since the error was not all of whom are using the openspace for homes and serving residents who have no account with the Linden. We charge for the service we provide, lease of land.

Jack Linden you should take a stance directly to those who have more than one openspace and does not want to deliver their investment, but on another SIM transform into a SIM from 15000prims on a dedicated server.

We can not pay for the mistakes but we are aware that if you have something to be done is not only charged in the plot of small negotiators.

I as an owner of 2 SIM'S FULL and 8 Openspace I am interested to make sure but it gives a facility to be adequate for the new policies would be most welcome by the community in general, I believe. These are difficult times we should not put all that work, not late third, we are not only playing in Second Life, we are helping the whole business remains standing. It would be very fair to give us some support for changes in OPENSPACE to SIMFULL, agree?
Addi Wobbit
Registered User
Join date: 22 May 2008
Posts: 7
Ibm
10-28-2008 16:04
I heard SL try to fusionate with IBM and IBM said, SL Servers are too old! LL only needs money!
Aleksie Solvang
nani?
Join date: 21 Oct 2004
Posts: 113
10-28-2008 16:04
This is insane. First of all - I share an open space with two other people, 90% of which is just that, open land. Between the three of us and our struggling economies we have just enough cash each month to pay the teir to keep the island. and now they're jacking the price up another $50? How about another option? Limit resources or something - the only thing LL is going to do by doing this is lose a lot of teir income. I rent my island from someone who made it for me and my friends.. there's absolutley no way I can keep my island once the new prices come into effect. And yet - I'm not one of the people sucking resources.. how exactly does this make any sense?!
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