Openspace Announcement Discussion with Jack Linden

Ohh...

I'll quote Jack:

This is from an old blog post, http://blog.secondlife.com/2006/09/21/information-about-openspaces-void-regions/ , but I haven't seen them say that this info has changed. They did up the prim count but you know as well as I do that raw prims in a region don't mean much.

So, going by this, I'd _guess_ that setting up a business on an openspace is not what they intended.

Using it as a sandbox for more than one person or any kind of scripting is probably pushing the line into not what they intended.

Since people TPing into an area causes much lag, having to drag the all the script contexts and attachments and textures and all that into the sim, having a high-traffic place on an openspace is not what they intended.

Actually splitting an openspace into 1/4-sim lots.. I can't imagine that this could be done while staying within their intended use.

It really comes down to the highlighted bits of the blog quote. A residence is somewhere you stay, not somewhere you just pass through..

I share a sim here with my friend which we do so very responsibly. We have not rented out any space to others, we stick to our prim count, and it seems that we maintain what you originally envisaged for these spaces. Could you please advise as to whether we are going to be made to pay for others misuse? I understand that for people making a profit from these sims should perhaps pay more, but we are not. We are not creating any issues which would affect others use of sl. Just quietly living and staying within our limits. Will we be made to pay for the transgressions of others?

I'm just gonna tell ya how I see it, in my own meat and potatoes kinda way:

It was fine for us real estate developers and investors to hold the bag and wait until conditions improved in the land market. Sit back and watch as some of our fellow competitors go out of business because they cannot make tier, offering land and homes at the ridiculous prices we've had to, just to stay alive. In time, there would have been a reduction in the amount of land on the grid, and there would have been some balance between mainland and estate.

Problem is, that's taking too damn long for LL. In the meantime, (chuckles) they can't introduce new land to the grid, and they are stuck with all this abandoned land. They can't just throw the abandoned land back on the market. If they did, we all know that it would not be "move" out of ignorance for the current state of the land market. They admitted to the problems of the real estate market during the summer.

Hmm... So, how do they save face? I know!!! Let's put a slowdown on all of these OS sims that people are abandoning mainland to get to. Hell, Jack even stuck his tongue out at us when he said something like, "and we're gonna add something to the viewer so people will know they are entering an OS sim (LMAO).

Anyway, LL is thinking that once they take out some of the new competition (us), they (aka them) will be able to get back in the game of making money.

As far as the comments regarding the reasons why this is being done, from an overusage of resources etc. That's typical American, and I am an American. Nothing brings us more pleasure than to be able to hide some of our actions behind something more...noble.

But, make no mistake my friends, it's about money. I just hope the kinds of actions being taken by LL over the last 6 or 8 months regarding the land market does not become a cyclable kind of thing.

Tony Upshaw
Upshaw Island Management

I usually don't post in response to any of the blogs by the Lindens? Why because for the last year that I have been a premium account resident I have not seen them actually do much in response to what solutions I've seen other residents present. So I read about whatever changes LL makes and go with the flow. I just had my one year rez day having paid my premiums every month for that year hoping one day to purchase land. I am not a mainland owner but I have a small parcel in an OS sim. I have spent the last 5 months building and teaching myself how to build terra form etc. Finnally last week got it the way I want it. Yay Me rofl...

I've paid my tiers on time every month and enjoyed the wonderful experience I had. Now today I find out, well guess what, that is all over unless you want to pay higher payments in January. I almost could not believe it but here we are in the middle of a WORLD WIDE financial crisis an LL decides to jack up the the prices on OS sims. I agree with most of what I've read here. If LL increased the prim level what did they expect to happen? I am a business person in first life and if I did this to any of my customers they would be hitting the road toot sweet. Gone. See ya later bye bye. hahahaha they probably wouldn't even say good bye they would just be gone.

Today I just downgraded my premium account to basic. I mean what is the point of me paying every single month when I can have the same experience for free.? I don't really expect LL to change this policy. But honestly with Christmas coming and the Holidays I can use my tier fees and premium account payments for other things.

And with a WORLD WIDE FINANCIAL DEBACLE taking place, in my mind LL right now is taking a page from all of those big wigs on wall street that wanted to line their pockets with no regard for their share holders.

I will continue for now to stay in-world because I've pre-paid my tiers for the next two months but not sure what the estate owner is going to do. I have no heavy traffic to my parcel but I do hahaha did enjoy building on it for the time this was available.

I honestly don't see people holding on to these OS sims after the holidays come, on top of the January increase and that is really too bad LL. After holiday spending what do you think is going to be the first thing to go when people are doing their budgets? hmmm you will more than likely see more abandoned land just like we are seeing more foreclosures in First Life.

I am not upset just a bit dissapointed. I don't expect you to change your minds about this move...would be nice if you did...I can understand that you are trying to curtail abusers but you can't tell me that you just now noticed that you had abusers in second life...hahahaha now that is funny.

As most have said, this will affect me. Right now I have an openspace sim I share with 2 friends. Neither of home can afford their own land, so I pay the tier. We don't abuse things with too many people, too much load, or too many scripts. Once this adjustment goes into effect, I will not choose to afford to continue to pay. This effects more than just the sim owner who I pay a fee above tier for usage. This also effects the places I buy my textures, and sculpties, etc from. If I don't have my own area I can play in, I'm not going to be building, so no reason for these.

The next issue is this. If all these openspace sims are dumped. What happens to the tier on the other private estates. I can't believe that Linden doesn't have plans to raise that. Those that want to say good, it's about time. Go ahead. But you are going to lose support from people when your tiers are advanced more.

In todays economy my leisure cash has been going to put gas in my vehicle and food on the table. Raising costs now is tantamount to shooting yourself in the heads Lindens. You may feel that Second Life is populated by Techies, but the current numbers are about 20,000 tech layoffs and rising. Maybe you are trying to save your own jobs, or maybe you should consider layoffs. I'm sure there are a lot of people in SL who would be glad to do some of those jobs, for a reduction in Tier. Ah.. Heretic! Burn him!

Again, how long before there are more changes as people leave. Cost to upload a file, or a texture... Might have to go up. Business license to sell your creative ideas and work, so someone can come and rip them off, and sell them for less..

We all are having to deal with less cash, adding cost to a game is just going to kill Second Life off in the long run. No happy ending Philip. You will be looking at Dead Space.

Enjoy.

Here's a thought: why not offer a 1/2 capacity (7500 prim) region as a moderate use alternative to light-use opensaces? Priced at $150 US they'd be right in-line with current pricing and production offerings, and they would fill an obvious need. Using actual, stated, performance guidelines abusers of openspaces could be notified of their infraction in order to let the unintentional offender decide to either curtail usage or upgrade their region. Some guideline enforcement and/or procedure for requiring reduction of use or mandatory upgrade *ought* to be discussed and implemented. Just a thought; surprised no one's proposed it before, unless I've missed it.

Someone should create a protest group in sl! Like "FREE SECOND LIFE" ^^ I will join!
I think this would be the biggest Group in SL!

Everyone should get one of these nice SOS Flags, too! I think this would look very good if thausends of avatars walk around with this flag!

Given the hard economic times seems that a huge price rise is unfair to residents and willlead to abandenments there by cutting revenue for linden labs is lose-lose in these hard times when continnued growth of is inportant for linden lab

please rethink this scheme as i wonder how many people can cope with tier prices increases on this scale.

Zara

THAT says it ALL.

That's not what I'm talking about.

What I'm talking about is this:
What does it mean to ***live in*** a sim?

The places I ***live in*** are, in fact, a scenic wooded area, and a stretch of open water for boating. I talked several of the other residents of the sim I'm on to sink some or all of their land so there was more space for boating: almost all of my parcel is under water and empty.

So... how would the fact that my home point is there change that? No, I wouldn't put my store in an OpenSpace, but if I had an OpenSpace I would ***live in*** "a scenic wooded area" or "a stretch of open water for boating" (or a scenic wooded island surrounded by a stretch of open water for boating), without a house or other residence.

Would that count as ***living in*** an OpenSpace? If so, why?

Ohhhh, I would love that, but... WON'T HAPPEN!!! (Laughs insanely). That's more competition.

Sorry.. It's been a long day..

It's a question of passing through vs hanging out. Openspaces are meant to fill the voids between full sims. They're the hallways, not the rooms.

At least that's how I see it.

If these fees currently go in place as announced...without any type of grandfather clause, I am dumping my Mainland holdings completely in response. I may get out of SL entirely or just become a FREE account.

Founded by Vindaloo Dovgal

Group name is: SAY NO TO OPEN SIMS PRICE INCREASE!

*really haz popcorn*

When I first read this and all the comments I was definitely supporting LL in thier decision. I own a sim and no open spaces. I cannot afford them even at the low rates as the tier I charge doesn't even cover my monthly fee to LL (295 US). I now understand why I haven't been able to "rent" out all my land as people have been using these Open Spacres for selling and renting land at a really cheap price. Shame on them!

However.......I do NOT support your decision any longer. Why can't the "abusers" simply be targeted and forced to pay a fine, be suspended for a week, and have all their tenants notified that the person they pay real money too is in contravention of SL policies and could possibly be banned from the game altogethor. Watch how quickly thier tenants move out and abandon crooked people. They will eventually go bankrupt and good for them. It is these people that forced this issue in the first place.

I feel terrible for the people that use Open Spaces for what they were intended. I propose on Jan 1 doing a scan of all open spaces and banning and fining abusers and forcing them to add a clause to their Covenant that they are in contravention of SL policies. After 1 month simply remove the open sims, effectively taking them away from them as penalty for not following rules for which they were intended. But please do not punish people that bought them in good faith and used them properly.

Pssssssst : lower the monthly cost on estates too, hard times right now.

Our group, the Western Geishas, rent an OS sim (Mokoia) and have used it to make a beautiful, non-profit space for relaxation and enjoyment for all. I agree with those people who have said "if there is a performence problem by all means charge to fix it, but don't just charge us more for nothing". All you will achieve is to drive generous people like ourselves away from building gifts like Western Geisha Heaven and make SL more commercial.

Also, as I have found time and time again, the profit imperative makes people's enterprises wildly unstable, opening and closing within a few months.

Finally, why charge us more when we haven't abused the sim? We haven't got around the prim limits and we have no Time Dilation problem, as well as being very low traffic, so I dont' think we have caused this problem. Talk to us in person, on the ground, at our sim, and tell us why we should pour another £50 UK into your coffers, via our landlady who must be damn upset too since she has always passed on the recommendations about open space to her tenants. We haven't done anything wrong, we have created something wonderful and your reaction is to fleece us.

This is retrospective taxation of the worst kind. Think again, offer a positive solution not a punitive reaction, and respond to your people as the individuals we are instead of making everyone pay for whatever real wrongs may be being done by a few.

Visit us, please!

Having read all the messages now, and with my own feelings and concerns too....I would honestly suggest that the 'Linden family' exercise caution at this time. We have a global financial crisis, our leisure and hobbies need to be the first things to go. Please note what Legion said....'you could be looking at dead space'. Be careful, you could end up with nothing.

Clearly you wish to drive away the estate owners, so by inforcing these new changes you'll do that. You need to consider everyone in your decisions because your not only effecting the estate owners, but your effecting their renters. I enjoy where I live and I am paying a reasonable amount for my land and most of the time I don't even go close to the prim limit that is set. I have lag very rarely and I enjoy the privacy. If you increase the cost for the estate owners then that will increase the cost of my rent. To be quite honest, I don't want all my money going to rent. I'd like to spend some shopping and having fun. So I'd seriously think about the decision your making before you go ahead and reinforce it, because you won't be effecting some people....you'll be effecting all people.

This is a bad idea. I can't see this doing anything other than pushing people away from SL, and I don't see how this is going to 'fix' the supposed issue. The people that are overusing the openspaces are going to be the ones who can afford to pay the (hugely) increased costs. You're going to drive away the intended audience...

I'm too upset to be very coherent. I'll have to post again later. Whee.

100Avs.... that is for full sim. 4 Open sims share the same resource so how can you expect 100Avs on each.

In general.
Stripped down.
Yeah.
Has anyone else noticed this thread is now at +90?

Are they not concerned?

This is the real question. What are these mystical limits?

textures? nah
script time, total time?
physical stuff?
AVs

Please, "light use" means nothing, we need actual numbers.


((or make us another silly traffic light we can oogle at))

Well if you put it up to a vote, my vote is: don't do it.

Too many people worked too hard on sims they can barely afford now; to take it away from them seems cruel.

You forget Cole, Linden Labs does not really care for the users feelings, or what is happening to them financially....all they care about is the money and we pay it