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Upcoming Changes for Adult Content: Definitions

Marcuw Schnook
Scripter
Join date: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 246
03-13-2009 12:06
From: Blondin Linden

I like how you say: nudity should not be deemed adult and the standard should be realistic depictions of sex using either real people or avatars in a public area.


See my previous statement about my hot-tub-in-backyard situation... I don't consider that a public area (since I've put a fence around it, even block people from coming onto my land and so on...)

As many people have said now... leave the people where they are now. But make a new G-rated (or whatever) sim where people will end when they first come into SL...
Blondin Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 2 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
03-13-2009 12:07
From: Xal Dryke
A concern...

One thing that I am afraid that will get lost in translation in the forming of this new definition, is the fact that the emphasis, and maybe rightly so, will only be on sexual content, and violent content will slip through the cracks.

Again, definitions for both can be interpretted many different ways by people in various places in the world.


*edit* - Welcome back Blondin



Thanks! I had a rough morning - schedule didn't work out as planned.

Thanks for bringing up the Violence content again. The focus has been on the Sexual as of late. I've been desensitized by horror movies in my childhood. How would you define extremely violent? The first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan is pretty graphic in my opinion, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it's an amazing film. Films (and I use that word loosely in this context) like Saw and Hostel seem to be violent for violence sake. I am curious though how others view violence.
Sophienne Aluveaux
Registered User
Join date: 4 Mar 2009
Posts: 5
03-13-2009 12:08
From: Marcuw Schnook
See my previous statement about my hot-tub-in-backyard situation... I don't consider that a public area (since I've put a fence around it, even block people from coming onto my land and so on...)


I wouldn't consider that public land either since the public cannot get to it.
spinster Voom
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,069
03-13-2009 12:10
A quick thought about genitalia ... Does a guy buing a primnis only do so in order to engage in sex, or is it sometimes just to complete his body? I'd imagine it might feel quite odd for a guy to not have one, even if he never used it.
Marcuw Schnook
Scripter
Join date: 24 Dec 2005
Posts: 246
03-13-2009 12:11
From: Sophienne Aluveaux
I wouldn't consider that public land either since the public cannot get to it.


Me neither, but it still can be seen ... and others can get offended. It has happened before when some morons even came in my home declaring stuff like that.

So if LL is going to change policy, I want to know where I stand.
Robert Graf
Registered User
Join date: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 81
Renters
03-13-2009 12:11
Can't seem to get an answer on this from anyone. If I rent property to someone and they rez something or do something that falls under the Linden New World Order no no's. Who's liable? Who will face whatever consequences the Lindens have in store for violaters. Me or the renter? Since I own the land they are renting my guess would be me. Goodbye all SL rental biz's on current mainland. Can't take the chance of being liable for someone else's actions.
Draghan Marksman
Registered User
Join date: 1 Jan 2008
Posts: 20
03-13-2009 12:12
Again what is striking is the number of times i read here " this is adult TO ME" or this is not adult TO ME"...

People do indeed have different views on what should be considered adult.

I have taken a screencap of the Linden's statement according to which GBLT sims won't ever be automatically classified as adult.
In a few months, when we get a new blog update stating that they eventually are, I will post this screencap back here, just for sake of demonstrating that when u start discriminating, it is a process that always ends very very bad....

SL is an adult game, whose access is by definition closed to underage people, therefore I see absolutely no need for filtering adult contents...
It is easy not to see adult content on SL with the current means we have. No need for more.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-13-2009 12:17
From: Blondin Linden
I agree. Not every case of nudity is Adult or pornographic. But would you think that it would be considered mature?
Blondin, I've pointed this out before, but I grew up 10 minutes walk from a nude beach, with the beach outside our back door frequented by topless bathers. I don't consider nudity as something that needs to be restricted to "M", let alone "A", but I could see compromising with US attitudes to that extent.

Next question: what does "nudity" refer to. Are non-erect prim "naughty bits" considered automatically adult? (Edit: I see other people are bringing this up)
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Sophienne Aluveaux
Registered User
Join date: 4 Mar 2009
Posts: 5
03-13-2009 12:18
From: spinster Voom
A quick thought about genitalia ... Does a guy buing a primnis only do so in order to engage in sex, or is it sometimes just to complete his body? I'd imagine it might feel quite odd for a guy to not have one, even if he never used it.


I actually bumped into a noob like that. He didn't realise he didn't have a penis until he accidentally showed up naked to a club and I pointed it out to him. He then only wanted one to have one. He wasn't interested in Slexing it up. I would not have genitals considered sexual. That smacks of a double standard. Not every guy is trying on a penis to figure out which one pleases himself the most sexually. Sometimes its just to make his avatar complete and the penis kinda has to match or he will look silly during periods of inadvertent nudity(ie when clothes refuse to rez or you just don't realize that outfit doesn't have pants) or during periods of avatar creation/tweaking.
Filipa Pippita
*Dark angel*
Join date: 31 May 2008
Posts: 6
03-13-2009 12:19
I still have doubts concerning some points..
I sell gothic stuff. Not sex related, but there are some pictures with blood (only one or 2). Do I have to delete them so that I don't need to move?
And when you mean move, that means we have to physically move from a land to another?
Thanks.
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
03-13-2009 12:19
From: Blondin Linden
I agree. Not every case of nudity is Adult or pornographic. But would you think that it would be considered mature?


Isn't "adult" and "pornographic" considered "mature"?
Dorothy Urvilan
Registered User
Join date: 1 Sep 2008
Posts: 2
What justification?
03-13-2009 12:22
One of the explanations that LL's gives for this whole porn land thing:

"Over the past year or so we have been hearing from a growing number of you that the experience in Second Life needed to change. We gathering a great deal of feedback and data, and then sat down and tried to imagine how we could serve most needs best."

Sure, you've heard from a growing number-- as SL grows, more people who are anti-porn make their voices heard. I am sure they have loud voices, too, while the rest of us continue living our lives in SL, always so happy that it's a place of free expression of all kinds. I'd like to see a real representation of the actual percentage of people in SL who would welcome this change. I am guessing that it would be VERY few. What is this really about? Really?

Interesting that we use the term "Lindens" to refer to money. I have read many articles, seen videos of LL people talking about SL with great passion and articulateness.... I want to believe that LL maintains a vision of something more than profit... but was I just naiive? What is the real motivation here? What about a survey of all residents?

Like I said before-- let's all move to porn-land. Let's bring all the content there. Let disneyland turn into a post-apocalyptic world populated by nobody. Unless, of course, LL decides to censor any non-adult content OUT of porn-land. Wouldn't that be strange and sad?
Xal Dryke
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jul 2007
Posts: 150
03-13-2009 12:22
From: Blondin Linden
Thanks! I had a rough morning - schedule didn't work out as planned.

Thanks for bringing up the Violence content again. The focus has been on the Sexual as of late. I've been desensitized by horror movies in my childhood. How would you define extremely violent? The first 20 minutes of Saving Private Ryan is pretty graphic in my opinion, but it doesn't take away from the fact that it's an amazing film. Films (and I use that word loosely in this context) like Saw and Hostel seem to be violent for violence sake. I am curious though how others view violence.


I believe that extreme violence can be defined as actions that depict anything that is intentionally harmful to an individual or a group of individuals. I believe what should be considered as offensive, should be limited to imagery in textures and photographs, not imaginary role-play that is agreed to by entering a region or by consenting with another individual who is allegedly age-verified.

Also, a very important issue that was brought up in the motivation thread, was that will there be any further expectation of behavior once in the newly created adult areas, even if you are age-verified. Maurice stated that only a person's real life age will affect what content they can access, not the apparent age of their avatar. Which brings up my next question for this thread...

Will a child avatar inside the adult area be considered acceptable if they are being played by age-verified adults?? Maybe this is splitting some hairs, but I think it's a huge issue to be considered when trying to address the definition.
Robert Graf
Registered User
Join date: 15 Oct 2006
Posts: 81
03-13-2009 12:22
They will burn down this village in order to save it... "I love the smell of napalm in the morning... It smells like.... victory...."
Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
03-13-2009 12:25
From: Argent Stonecutter
Are non-erect prim "naughty bits" considered automatically adult? (Edit: I see other people are bringing this up)


Being punny? :)
Sophienne Aluveaux
Registered User
Join date: 4 Mar 2009
Posts: 5
03-13-2009 12:27
With violence, some discretion needs to occur. I really have not seen much graphic violence on SL because I stay away from the places where that occurs. Those sims let you know when you TP there that their roleplay includes some violence that I would not be into. So as a discerning adult I stay away.

The standards should be for only graphic depictions of realistic violence, vampires, lycans and such are fantasy and as adults, we understand that. The only way I would like to be warned by LL about violence is if I am about to inadvertently stumble into the middle of a roleplay shootout where heads and limbs are being blown off. I'm not a big fan of blood and gore but it would be easier on everybody to just stay away from what irks you. I do.
Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
03-13-2009 12:29
From: Draghan Marksman
Again what is striking is the number of times i read here " this is adult TO ME" or this is not adult TO ME"...

People do indeed have different views on what should be considered adult.

I have taken a screencap of the Linden's statement according to which GBLT sims won't ever be automatically classified as adult.
In a few months, when we get a new blog update stating that they eventually are, I will post this screencap back here, just for sake of demonstrating that when u start discriminating, it is a process that always ends very very bad....

SL is an adult game, whose access is by definition closed to underage people, therefore I see absolutely no need for filtering adult contents...
It is easy not to see adult content on SL with the current means we have. No need for more.


I don't see that LL would come back in the future and say that GBLT sims are automatically "adult".
However, GBLT sims, or any other sims would be "adult" if they were facilitating public bonking. Note: 'bonking' to include what Bill Clinton might say is not bonking when he does it.


It's very unfortunate that the terms PG, Mature and Adult are being used.
They have too much baggage, and that is confusing the issue.
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Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
03-13-2009 12:32
Is why I keep requesting information on both the research and the real problem set.

I suppose they can keep ignoring it; I can keep posting the requests, though.

At least I am giving them the opportunity to do the right thing, regardless of whether they actually take advantage of it or not.
Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
03-13-2009 12:32
From: Kara Spengler
Being punny? :)
Rising to the challenge.
_____________________
Argent Stonecutter - http://globalcausalityviolation.blogspot.com/

"And now I'm going to show you something really cool."

Skyhook Station - http://xrl.us/skyhook23
Coonspiracy Store - http://xrl.us/coonstore
Eean Faddoul
Registered User
Join date: 22 Sep 2005
Posts: 12
Censorship
03-13-2009 12:38
Personally I feel LL is making a mountain out of a molehill. Especially when it concerns Adult themed areas AND profiles.

I have a real problem with your so called "community standards".

You can randomly pick any number of profiles on any given day and read them. They are filled with sex this sex that, nude pictures, pictures of couples engaged in sex, both toon AND real life photos.

It doesn't take much looking to see it. Yet you randomly pick people out to harass and then try to stuff garbage like this down our throats because someone somewhere at sometime saw a nipple they didn't want to see.

It's simple. If you don't want to be offended by what is in someone's profile, don't look at profiles.

But then that is simple common sense.
Royce Boa
RAGE: President
Join date: 1 Apr 2007
Posts: 260
03-13-2009 12:39
For combat sims...what will be considered to be adult level violence?

- Is martial arts or boxing considered adult level violence? What about swords vs Guns? If there is no blood or gore...just swiping swords and health points being deducted by the attacks so that 1 person wins and 1 person loses, is this adult level violence?

- If the sim is an rp that is NOT violence themed...but violence is a possibility..is this adult level violence?

- What exactly is adult themed violence...specifically...considering this is a video game world?

My main concern is this. I run a combat based group and we are very successful. I have many members who may not verify..and therefore if I had to run my business on an adult flagged parcel..I would lose many many of my members. This seems counterproductive considering most of the really huge MMO's are centered around combat. I have never played WOW...do you need to age verify to play it? What about online Xbox or PS3...you just KNOW many many underagers are in there playing all kinds of combat based games....I just don't see how a martial arts themed parcel would be considered adult level violence when you can see this level of violence in a PG or AA movie?
Talarus Luan
Ancient Archaean Dragon
Join date: 18 Mar 2006
Posts: 4,831
03-13-2009 12:40
From: Eean Faddoul
Personally I feel LL is making a mountain out of a molehill. Especially when it concerns Adult themed areas AND profiles.


I think the appropriate version of that cliche is "making a dufflebag out of a coinpurse". :p
Leah Shikami
Registered User
Join date: 12 Oct 2006
Posts: 3
Search Controls
03-13-2009 12:52
If the Lindens are suggesting that nothing will change in SL except the SEARCH methods, no segregated lands, simply the Search methods used to find places, items and groups, and all they are saying is that you can use checkboxes during a Search, to choose to find places, classifieds and groups that are rated PG, Mature or Adult, and that Mature is like an "R" rating and Adult is like an "X" ratings, then all we are trying to do is define the line between Mature and Adult, and that would seem to be a simple thing to do.

If that is the case, I suggest:

- First of all, Linden public lands can have any rules they wish to impose, and be stated upon arrival at the hub to that land. Prohibition of public nudity and sex acts, and dirty talk or threats in public chat prohibited here, would be likely.

- Search: Search would allow all 3 checkboxes (PG, Mature, Adult) checkable all at once for the widest searches available, for those who are not offended.

- Definition: So when does "Mature" become "Adult"? That's the definition we're looking for. There is no need for Second Life to "reinvent the wheel" here. A little research on the good work of scholars and the legal system is readily available.

I suggest starting with this definition: "Adult" SL searches would include mentions of sex for sale (escorts), of lewd behavior, sex acts, and use of pornographic language, selling of sex paraphernalia and genetalia for sex, mention of ultra-violence, hardcore sex and hardcore violence, child sex, animal sex, incest, and necrophilia.

As a start for the fine honing of the distinction between our "Mature" and "Adult", have a look at the WIkipedia definition of Pornography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornographic

Softcore (which would be SL's Mature rating:) In general, softcore refers to pornography that does not depict penetration (usually genitals are not shown)

Hardcore (would be SL's Adult rating) refers to pornography that depicts penetration explicitly

Legality: The legal status of pornography varies widely from country to country. Most countries allow at least some form of pornography. In some countries, softcore pornography is considered tame enough to be sold in general stores or to be shown on TV. Hardcore pornography, on the other hand, is usually regulated. ... child pornography is illegal in almost all countries, and most countries have restrictions on pornography involving violence or animals.

(Be sure to scroll down to "Effect on Sex Crimes" on this page. Very interesting!)

This page contains a link to the "Miller Test" (see Legal Objections): " In the United States, distribution of "obscene" materials is a federal crime... The determination of what is obscene is up to a jury in a trial, which must apply the Miller test" See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miller_test

Note here: on Miller Test page:

Problem of definition
Critics of obscenity law argue that defining what is obscene is paradoxical, arbitrary, and subjective. They state that lack of definition of obscenity in the statutes, coupled with the existence of hypothetical entities and standards as ultimate arbiters within the Miller Test (hypothetical "reasonable persons" and "contemporary community standards";) proves that federal obscenity laws are in fact not defined, and thus unenforceable and legally dubious.

The Miller Test has three parts:

* Whether the average person, applying contemporary community standards, would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest,
* Whether the work depicts/describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct or excretory functions[2] specifically defined by applicable state law,
* Whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. (This is also known as the (S)LAPS test- [Serious] Literary, Artistic, Political, Scientific.)

I can't spend any more time on this. : ) Anyone care to continue this research?

Leah!
morganna Fhang
Registered User
Join date: 24 Jun 2008
Posts: 3
Don't we already have this under our search
03-13-2009 12:54
Sorry call me a little slow whatever, but when I search for something I choose whether or not I want mature or pg content. It is my choice right there no questions.
By LL trying to seperate and define it they are trying to become our morality.
To teleport is easy, so if I am in a sim that is offensive to me that is what I do.
We are all supposed to be adults here and therefor should be able to take care of ourselves.
If a person is here for pg content then they should keep the show mature content in search unchecked. If they do simple things the rest of the sl world would be fine..Do you think I cry if I accidently tp into a pg sim or a mature sim nope I just tp right out!
Blondin Linden
Linden Lab Employee
Join date: 2 Jun 2008
Posts: 381
03-13-2009 12:59
From: Argent Stonecutter
Next question: what does "nudity" refer to. Are non-erect prim "naughty bits" considered automatically adult? (Edit: I see other people are bringing this up)


Not automatically. It depends on what they are doing.
Hanging out at a nude beach would be fine. Walking around pants-less on the mainland just to expose yourself to others would be inappropriate.
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