What about Bots?

ya bots are way better than campers in the lag sense for sure..i remember we tested with bots and were over like 109 in the sim and it felt like nothing close to 80 live active avatars lagging us down hard..

bleh it's a lose lose situation..what are ya going to do?lol

3.3 Linden Lab retains ownership of the account and related data, regardless of intellectual property rights you may have in content you create or otherwise own.

You agree that even though you may retain certain copyright or other intellectual property rights with respect to Content you create while using the Service, you do not own the account you use to access the Service, nor do you own any data Linden Lab stores on Linden Lab servers (including without limitation any data representing or embodying any or all of your Content). Your intellectual property rights do not confer any rights of access to the Service or any rights to data stored by or on behalf of Linden Lab.

3.1 You have a nonexclusive, limited, revocable license to use Second Life while you are in compliance with the terms of service.

Subject to the terms of this Agreement, Linden Lab grants to you a non-exclusive, limited, fully revocable license to use the Linden Software and the rest of the Service during the time you are in full compliance with the Terms of Service. Additional terms may apply to use of the APIs or other separate elements of the Service (i.e. elements that are not required to use the Viewer or the Servers); these terms are available where such separate elements are available for download from the Websites. Nothing in this Agreement, or on Linden Lab's websites, shall be construed as granting you any other rights or privileges of any kind with respect to the Service or to any Content. You acknowledge that your participation in the Service, including your creation or uploading of Content in the Service, does not make you a Linden Lab employee and that you do not expect to be, and will not be, compensated by Linden Lab for such activities

What's the point in trying to have a good argument if people start dragging facts into it?????

Since when has a TOS constituted facts?

same thing can happen with any service..
same thing can happen with the land you live on in rl..you own it to an extent.
in there they are just saying you can't get in to get to the stuff you left in their server so you better have copies..and prim shapes made are not yours..because you used their software and prims and tools..the things you brought in are yours and you can have them pulled from use.

you don't own your internet account..just a user like everyone else paying for a service provided..
in SL you do have ownership rights just like you have ownership rights on rl land..you can lose title to both..
renting would be the server..you don't have access to the server..only the land or region..
and the ownership rights gives you the right to say who can come in and who can't ..renting ..those are different rights..
you can't tell the owner he/she cannot come onto his own land..and they can boot you in a heart beat..

just like LL can boot them in a heart beat..now a sim owner can also sell you owners rights but you have to live by their rules to retain ownership...
renting and owning are only separated by rights of control and nothing more..rl or sl..abuse the rights and most times you lose them renter or owner..let your land be in the way of something and see if it's yours when the time comes to make that highway or school or whatever the community voted on..
owner does not mean you own it and it cannot be taken away..anything can be taken away at any time..

SL is all software. You have a license to use the software. Just like any music you ever bought and just like Windows operating system and any other software you buy. You do not own it unless you created it. You have a license to use it. You can pay for more options along with that software yet you don't own it. The term ownership used in SL is nothing more than implied Role Play. Owning land in SL doesn't mean you really own the land being there is no real land to own. If you do something on your land that disrupts any part of the rest of SL it can be a TOS and community standard violation. Being bots disrupts the search system it can and probably will be considered a TOS violation soon. If it can be proven bots disrupt the performance of the rest of SL that would be another violation. This is why they limit accounts per user. People that exploit the system with bots are causing more harm than good to the community as a whole. However those people give a rats ass about that as they are only concerned with their bottom line. It is things like this that cause all these stupid laws in RL that slowly wittle away our freedoms.. People just can't stop taking advantage of things.

Lyla: yep like I said *clickity click* and all is gone...

it would be the same as service with a website..i use their software on the server and am given ownership rights to allow anyone to access the site but i can ban them too..but they can be taken away..i still own what i created..
it's not about owning something in sl it is about having the ownership rights..
those rights i can't pay for with my avatar..that deal is setup with the real life me and them off grid..
just as any service would be..
so it's not rp..that whole part is real..if i abuse the software or the server or anything with the service my service will be terminated..
we don't outright own our copy of windows or any music..we pay for ownership rights to control them and we can let anyone we want use our music or computer or we can say no..and we can abuse that right and lose access or go to jail for abusing the right to own it by thinking we can do whatever we want with it..like copy it and give them away or resell them..

the only rp going on is the RP i may decide to create or not..there is no RP coming from the lindens..it's all business..

we are not entitled to the entire unconditional power
that would be LL
thats not ownership rights ..thats ownership..

all i am saying is we have ownership rights which give us the power and that power can be taken away if abused..
they just cancel my service with them and it's gone..
LL decided the rules on ownership..
just like a web provider would say..we don't want any porn sites so if you don't want to lose your server you best keep it clean..the site is yours but you have rules..

i'm not siding with bot abusers or anything like that..

i'm just saying people think there is only one way of own something and i'm saying there is more than one way..some owners have absolute till you die power and some owners don't..and the rest rent lol
nobody in SL has absolute power..
we have condominiums called sims lol

Actually, it is likely (but has never been officially confirmed, as the settlement was secret) that a legal settlement was won against LL on the basis that it had offered "ownership" of land to buyers. (The settlement did exist and was surely won, the doubt is about why.)

As a result, it no longer does so outside of the SL software. Within the SL software, it's "RP".

QFT

e.g. People who were using OpenSpaces as they were intended to be used got screwed over because the greedy and stupid went too far.

e.g. People who use bots for creative purposes could find their options for creativity limited due to the abusive use of bots to drive up traffic.

I think this is a little unfair, though. Remember, bots are possible because a group of people started reverse-engineering the protocol even though it was actually against ToS (bots came _before_ the open-source client!).

So is it right to do things that work, and don't seem to harm anyone, but are technically against the rules (like developing bots, but also like pushing an OpenSpace to the limit) or not?

Sounds like how many things were harmless and ignored... till the abuse of them forced the powers to be to step in and take steps

bots have always been possible, there is no functional difference between a bot and an alt. The software to run them as a bot is newish, but the bots were always an option (were used a lot when camping started, to the point they created anti-bot measures in the camp systems)

Developing a bot seems like an interesting technical exercise.
Using bots en masse in order to game search is an exercise in selfishness and dishonesty.

Conducting some build/script/avatar experiments to determine lag parameters in an OpenSim is an interesting technical exercise.
Systematic loading up OpenSpace sims for rental and business is an exercise in greed.

i don't think anyone should be pushing anything to the limits unless it is the the people testing the equipment..
thats just me though..
i'm sure if you are asking for rollback after rollback or crashing all the time you'll draw attention to yourself and end up losing what ever it is we have in here lol

and when i say you.it's in the general sense not at anyone person..i just say it a lot

Just because the helper who you encountered didn't help you on that occasion, doesn't mean that you didn't have a right to reach your land. You paid LL for the rent of the land and it's implicit that you can actually use it.

might I suggest you talk to a person that had issues with an infohub.

considering that people can own just 16m2 lots on a sim... which far exceeds the avatar slots on a sim. You are not guaranteed or given any right to actually reach your land when it's busy.

My recollection of the infohub thing is that she could always reach her land, but she objected to the number of people in the sim, so she put camping out to use up her "share" of the sim's avs. Many or most of her camping pads were removed as I recall. I don't think that has anything to do with this discussion.

What you replied to was me saying that, when paying for land from LL, it's implicit that you can actually use the land. There are occasions when someone else fills the sim so you can't reach it, but LL must deal with that when asked to by another land owner who wants to get to his/her land. The person who Sling asked got it wrong.

[added]
I am aware of Jack's quote that Sling mentioned. If that's the way that LL work, then they are in the wrong.

Wrong, there were times she couldn't even log into her land.

LL does not boot people off a sim so a land owner can access it.

The only thing that can happen is a sim owner can request a restart and then try to get on their sim.

Edit:

from the TOS which you claim to follow to the letter to avoid problems:


So seems they are rather to the point about not guaranteeing what you claim as your right to access the content you paid for.

Consumer protection agencies and governments the world over would disagree with the concept of people being charged for a service they can't use.

Sorry, Mort, but I don't see anything in that extract that speaks against what I've said.

It's perfectly simple. If you pay for something, you are entitled to it (or your money back). You disagree with that, but that's ok.

Btw, I've never claimed to follow [the ToS] to the letter to avoid problems. I don't know where you got that idea from.

not when you consider the fact that you don't get refunds for lost telephone service when lines are down, cable lines cut, etc...

There is clauses in the TOS that states LL is not liable for interruptions to the service for any reason (be it their power goes out, isp failure, login server gets overloaded, etc...)

And part of that service is access to your in world assets and land.

What you are paying for is what LL offer in the extracts quoted. If you're expecting something other than what is offered, you expose yourself to disappointment.

You've always made big noises about search gaming practices being ok because they were not explicitly forbidden in the TOS.
You've said that you would cease the practices if they were banned in the TOS.

I do get refunds for disruptions to my phone service. If I was getting constant disruption they would have to refund me a lot of money.



Sure there are, but if there are constant disruptions I'd imagine they're going to find themselves at odds with consumer laws and they will lose. Companies cannot charge people for a service and not deliver said service. If I could never use my land and LL continued to charge me I'm pretty sure I'd find the law on my side.

Brief disruptions are of course not going to be covered in the same way.

You are not offered access to the land at any point in the purchase.

There are lots of claimed things you think are entitlements but are not.

The pone company doesn't pay unless it's a contractual obligation per the terms of service on your phone contract.

Yes they do, they paid me a refund because I complained, they didn't have to. However if my phone line was constantly down I doubt very much they would be entitled to charge me for a service, there's the difference.

I don't care what it says in the TOS, if you can't use what you've been sold the law is likely to be on your side and the TOS is likely to be ruled not worth the pixels it consists of.

Now expecting 100% uptime or usage is unreasonable and the law rightly recognises that.