temp prim rezzers zapped?
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Djamila Marikh
(shrugs)
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 158
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02-03-2009 15:36
From: Baloo Uriza I don't know about your state, but in mine, you can actually fail the driver's license exam on one question if you don't have the default maximum speed limits memorized (alleys 15, school/business zone 20, residential 25, tertiary road 30, secondary road 35, primary 40, expressway 45, urban freeway 50, suburban freeway 55, small town freeway 60, rural freeway 65). The basic highway safety questions rightfully count for more points than questions about how to not park like an asshole, etc.)
I fail to see how the two are related. You can't get an accurate motion sound out of a static event, for one.
Sure it is. Botting isn't using the service as provided, same with using scripts or custom clients that override automatic logouts for being idle. Anybody with half a brain and who isn't colorblind can easily grasp concepts such as "temporary" and a red/yellow/green scale. This isn't rocket science unless one is completely ignorant or one is deliberately trying to obfuscate the intent for selfish goals. Well Baloo, of course there are rules, they are defined in driving tests huh ? In fact, they even give you a lil book you can read so you know them. At least in my state. Well, calculating a motion sound seemed a bit frivolous while they were at the time having availability issues, but perhaps that's just me. And sorry, no, botting is not a crime to this point, as they have indulged it to date, along with keep alives to subvert the auto disconnect. Isn't there a parameter in the controls to shut off auto disconnect ? Well if there is, I guess you are wrong again. Imagine ! As Andrew Linden noted a calculation for temp-on-rez prim limits and was kind enough to post it, which I advocated earlier had you done any reading, in fact it was my whole point, I fail to see what you are pompously rambling on about regarding half brains and ignorance.
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Sling Trebuchet
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Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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02-03-2009 15:37
From: Djamila Marikh .....
It is rather silly for you to say above it would be insane not to have a limit set, when that's precisely what I began with, in saying they set the limits, simply state them. Hint, last line of my first post. You seem to have an issue with them making a limit clear, which they now have, in Andrew Lindens post, which pretty much renders your personal belief of what is the intangible limit, irrelevant.
Andrew gave the formula used to determine the limit for the number of simultaneous temps in a given parcel. That limit is the number of temps that can possible be rezzed in a parcel before the sim will refuse to rezz any more. With out that technical limit being set, a rogue script (or Twilight Zone artefact) could continually rezz temps until the sim fell over. Andrews post has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of rezzing temps to achieve the effect of permanance.
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Djamila Marikh
(shrugs)
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 158
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02-03-2009 15:37
From: Baloo Uriza You may wish to link directly to what you're referring to if you realistically expect people to follow your reference. The forum post numbers are completely meaningless and do not line up day to day (what's #73 today isn't necessarily 73 tomorrow) or even view to view (maybe your audience is using threaded or viewing from a different sort order, which would make 73 be something completely arbitrary). I see no reason to indulge your laziness in not reading what you reply to. You can do your own work.
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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02-03-2009 15:38
Umm... your car has a limit on how fast it can go.
It does not mean you can drive it that fast.
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Djamila Marikh
(shrugs)
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 158
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02-03-2009 15:41
From: Sling Trebuchet Andrew gave the formula used to determine the limit for the number of simultaneous temps in a given parcel. That limit is the number of temps that can possible be rezzed in a parcel before the sim will refuse to rezz any more. With out that technical limit being set, a rogue script (or Twilight Zone artefact) could continually rezz temps until the sim fell over.
Andrews post has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of rezzing temps to achieve the effect of permanance. And tell me Sling, who advocated 1000 temp prims as you noted in your post in his thread ? Sure he did note that calc, which was, er, my point to begin with huh ? That they note it ?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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02-03-2009 15:42
From: Djamila Marikh And tell me Sling, who advocated 1000 temp prims as you noted in your post in his thread ?
Sure he did note that calc, which was, er, my point to begin with huh ? That they note it ? Why does my car have 180mph as the top speed on the speedometer if I can't drive that fast? Same logic...
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Argent Stonecutter
Emergency Mustelid
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
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02-03-2009 15:43
From: MortVent Charron Why does my car have 180mph as the top speed on the speedometer if I can't drive that fast? To taunt you.
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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02-03-2009 15:44
From: MortVent Charron Umm... your car has a limit on how fast it can go.
It does not mean you can drive it that fast. If you mean that's it's illegal to drive it that fast, you are mistaken. There are places where you can drive it to its limit, including the autobahns in Germany. I've no idea what you were replying to, so don't get me into it. I'm just pointing out that you can drive a car as fast it will go - even on some public roads.
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Baloo Uriza
Debian Linux Helper
Join date: 19 Apr 2008
Posts: 895
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02-03-2009 15:47
From: Djamila Marikh Well Baloo, of course there are rules, they are defined in driving tests huh ? In fact, they even give you a lil book you can read so you know them. At least in my state. Yes, but most streets do not have posted limits, which was my point: It's considered common knowledge. And not everybody's read the book, such as cyclists and pedestrians, who aren't required to have a license, but are still required to obey the same rules. From: someone Well, calculating a motion sound seemed a bit frivolous while they were at the time having availability issues, but perhaps that's just me. Dopplar effects are easy. Solving network topology issues involves more than changing a line of code. One's a quick fix easily patched, the other's something that's going to require real people to get on real trains to go to other real cities to re-arrange equipment. From: someone And sorry, no, botting is not a crime to this point, as they have indulged it to date, along with keep alives to subvert the auto disconnect. Isn't there a parameter in the controls to shut off auto disconnect ? Well if there is, I guess you are wrong again. Imagine ! Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's allowed. It's possible to create child porn in SL, but that doesn't mean it's any more ethical or accepted. And no, there's not a way to override the autodisconnect in the viewer as provided (this is a good thing: if you're idle, you don't need to be connected wasting resources for everyone else who happens to be paying more active attention).
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Jesse Barnett
500,000 scoville units
Join date: 21 May 2006
Posts: 4,160
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02-03-2009 15:49
From: Sling Trebuchet Andrew gave the formula used to determine the limit for the number of simultaneous temps in a given parcel. That limit is the number of temps that can possible be rezzed in a parcel before the sim will refuse to rezz any more. With out that technical limit being set, a rogue script (or Twilight Zone artefact) could continually rezz temps until the sim fell over.
Andrews post has absolutely nothing to do with the legitimacy of rezzing temps to achieve the effect of permanance. Correct, this is the maximum amount of temporary prims. This formula does not address frequency or sim impact. The Lindens monitor all sims and can see sub-par performance. If someone notices a problem or if a problem is reported and it is traced to a (or multiple) temp-on-rezzers then do not be surprised when they are confiscated. As stated previously, it is a matter of common sense, although with some posters, common and sense are not all that common it seems.
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I (who is a she not a he) reserve the right to exercise selective comprehension of the OP's question at anytime. From: someone I am still around, just no longer here. See you across the aisle. Hope LL burns in hell for archiving this forum
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Baloo Uriza
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Join date: 19 Apr 2008
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02-03-2009 15:49
From: Djamila Marikh I see no reason to indulge your laziness in not reading what you reply to. You can do your own work. My point is, from the view use in the forums, post 73 was one of my own, and not even one in reply to you. At this point, you're only making yourself look silly by expecting other users to be psychic. How the hell is anybody else supposed to know what post 73 is from your prospective?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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02-03-2009 15:52
From: Phil Deakins If you mean that's it's illegal to drive it that fast, you are mistaken. There are places where you can drive it to its limit, including the autobahns in Germany.
I've no idea what you were replying to, so don't get me into it. I'm just pointing out that you can drive a car as fast it will go - even on some public roads. Only on roads where it's posted you are allowed to. Not just because your car can move that fast. That is the problem. Nowhere does it say you can run a temp-rezzer to utilize any of the parcel's supported temporary prims.. The only measure of your prim limit is the parcel's limit listed in about land.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Djamila Marikh
(shrugs)
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 158
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02-03-2009 15:57
From: MortVent Charron Why does my car have 180mph as the top speed on the speedometer if I can't drive that fast?
Same logic... I guess I honestly don't get the correlation. Are you saying they gave a calculation to note a limit that they don't intend to be possible to reach ?
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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02-03-2009 16:05
From: Djamila Marikh I guess I honestly don't get the correlation. Are you saying they gave a calculation to note a limit that they don't intend to be possible to reach ? If utilization of that limit involves slamming the asset server every 30s-60s in order to rez the 'temporary' prims in a build for false impressions of permanency then yes. It's like saying you have this buffer for temporary prims that is avoidable for vehicles, temporary displays of products and the like. It does not say you can use them in a manner that adversely affects the grid.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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02-03-2009 16:10
From: MortVent Charron Only on roads where it's posted you are allowed to.
Not just because your car can move that fast.
That is the problem.
Nowhere does it say you can run a temp-rezzer to utilize any of the parcel's supported temporary prims.. The only measure of your prim limit is the parcel's limit listed in about land. I was adressing your thinking that can't drive your car to its maximum capability, when you can. I'm not getting into the temp rez discussion. Incidentally, speed limits are actually written down specifically, either on road signs, or in the law. Car speeds are not a good analogy for your argument.
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Djamila Marikh
(shrugs)
Join date: 9 Nov 2006
Posts: 158
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02-03-2009 16:32
From: MortVent Charron If utilization of that limit involves slamming the asset server every 30s-60s in order to rez the 'temporary' prims in a build for false impressions of permanency then yes.
It's like saying you have this buffer for temporary prims that is avoidable for vehicles, temporary displays of products and the like.
It does not say you can use them in a manner that adversely affects the grid. Then why wouldn't they state a lower limit, or say they discourage it entirely, instead of explaining a calculation for a limit ? I don't really understand. From: Baloo Uriza Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's allowed. It's possible to create child porn in SL, but that doesn't mean it's any more ethical or accepted. And no, there's not a way to override the autodisconnect in the viewer as provided (this is a good thing: if you're idle, you don't need to be connected wasting resources for everyone else who happens to be paying more active attention).
Possible, but not allowed, and no, not there. Alt-Ctrl-D for advanced, then Character->Character Tests-Idle/AFK. Pair of Wrongs Baloo. And comparing it to child porn was frankly, ignorant and simpleminded, worse yet because you were clueless as to what you were speaking of.
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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02-03-2009 16:40
From: Djamila Marikh Then why wouldn't they state a lower limit, or say they discourage it entirely, instead of explaining a calculation for a limit ? I don't really understand.
When asked how many temporary (look up the definition) prims a parcel or sim can support they gave an answer. They were not asked: Is it okay for me to use those temporary prims through a script that makes asset server calls fast enough that for all intents and purposes those prims are permanent thereby giving more than a standard prim allotment and degrading the grid performance. There are quite a few utilization of temporary prims through combat tools, real temporary demo units, etc that are legit since the prims are not being called rapidly 24/7 in a manner that is detrimental to the grid's stability
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!
9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
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Feldspar Millgrove
Registered User
Join date: 16 Nov 2006
Posts: 372
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02-03-2009 21:31
From: Argent Stonecutter If you don't care about whether you're doing something unethical.
And regardless of the TOS, ripping off the auction queue is unethical.
Even if the judge declared it legal, it's unethical. Well, this is kind of off-topic, but mainly that case was not about accessing web pages that were misdesigned (supposed to be hidden, but not). The case was about what Linden Lab can do to their customers and whether or not various critical portions of the TOS were enforceable terms of a legally binding contract. The only point I am making is that some contracts are legal, and some are not. And sometimes, the ones that say "We can do anything we want and you have no recourse" are not legal.
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Feldspar Millgrove
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Join date: 16 Nov 2006
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02-03-2009 21:37
From: Qie Niangao I'm just speculating; whence come freshly-minted UUIDs? Me too, but generally in a distributed system like this, the sim nodes would be able to create new ones according to a clock and some scoping rules. As to how temp rezzers interact with the asset server, that could be complicated, involving caches on the sim and so forth. One thing we know is that they don't hit the asset server when they are deleted.
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Feldspar Millgrove
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Join date: 16 Nov 2006
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Thickly Settled
02-03-2009 21:51
From: Baloo Uriza I don't know about your state, but in mine, you can actually fail the driver's license exam on one question if you don't have the default maximum speed limits memorized From: Baloo Uriza You can get speeding tickets below the posted speed limit, too, if you're driving faster than safe for the conditions From your descriptions, I can guess which state you live in, because the traffic laws there are different than in most states. (By the way, the speed limit is defined as what's posted on the major highway in that state, with the "reasonable" limit not being relevant in that case. ) My only point here is that even the USA alone is a diverse place of different laws, customs, and cultures; something for us to keep in mind when trying to generalize about RL things in SL.
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Baloo Uriza
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Join date: 19 Apr 2008
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02-03-2009 22:18
From: Feldspar Millgrove From your descriptions, I can guess which state you live in, because the traffic laws there are different than in most states. But they are on parity with other territories in Cascadia, and that's what's important since it's not just us but the entire region regardless of international boundary. You'll notice the same rules apply in BC (in it's metric equivalents), and in Washington and Idaho. We experimented with 85 on a part of I-84 for a while (since the freeway was originally built with 110 in mind), but the fed doesn't care enough about highway maintenance to maintain the roadway for speeds above 60, so 65 is the top you'll see on a road paid for by the fed...
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Sling Trebuchet
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02-04-2009 01:50
From: Djamila Marikh I guess I honestly don't get the correlation. Are you saying they gave a calculation to note a limit that they don't intend to be possible to reach ? What you apparently don't get is the meaning of the word "temporary".
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Maggie: We give our residents a lot of tools, to build, create, and manage their lands and objects. That flexibility also requires people to exercise judgment about when things should be used. http://www.ace-exchange.com/home/story/BDVR/589
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Phil Deakins
Prim Savers = low prims
Join date: 17 Jan 2007
Posts: 9,537
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02-04-2009 02:04
Djamila. It's best not to feed them unless you are having fun with it. Some people in this forum, and in this thread, don't debate with respect to truths on certain topics. They debate with respect to their own personal, self-centered desires, that are often totally divorced from reality. It's not that they can't see truths - it's just that they don't want those truths to be true, so they argue that they are untrue. And, of course, they know so much better about the way the grid is affected by certain things than LL does. Arguing their self-centered ideas is what they do for enjoyment, and you won't get much in the way of sensible debate out of them.
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Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
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02-04-2009 02:14
From: MortVent Charron When asked how many temporary (look up the definition) prims a parcel or sim can support they gave an answer.
They were not asked: Is it okay for me to use those temporary prims through a script that makes asset server calls fast enough that for all intents and purposes those prims are permanent thereby giving more than a standard prim allotment and degrading the grid performance.
There are quite a few utilization of temporary prims through combat tools, real temporary demo units, etc that are legit since the prims are not being called rapidly 24/7 in a manner that is detrimental to the grid's stability Yeah, and it would really suck if the absolute upper bound had to be low enough to appropriately constrain a constantly-refreshing temp rezzer. There are legitimate, very occasional use cases for rezzing a gazillion temp prims (with associated sim and backend impact); it would be unfortunate if those had to be abandoned in order to defend the grid from self-refreshing temp-rezzers. So could there be two limits, or some more complex formula with a temporal component? Only by again cutting that upper limit, and making everything else slower in order for that more complex calculation to run every time a temp prim is rezzed. Bad idea. That said, I do think the current formula is a bit optimistic. Take the reductio ad absurdum: a completely empty sim with a sole owner. Somehow I think the prims wouldn't be the only thing missing, sixty seconds after simultaneously rezzing 16,000 temp prims. Especially if they were scripted physical twisted tori.
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Argent Stonecutter
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Join date: 20 Sep 2005
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02-04-2009 02:55
From: Phil Deakins Incidentally, speed limits are actually written down specifically, either on road signs, or in the law. Car speeds are not a good analogy for your argument. From: Feldspar Millgrove (By the way, the speed limit is defined as what's posted on the major highway in that state, with the "reasonable" limit not being relevant in that case. )
Baloo's comment is kind of muddying the waters, because secondary roads aren't what I was talking about. When they abolished the 55 MPH speed limit in the US, some western states posted MAJOR HIGHWAYS as "reasonable". Yes, literally, that's what they had on the signs... nothing but an admonition to keep to a reasonable speed. People still got speeding tickets. I have been led to believe that they had to post actual speed limits since because the court expenses of fighting jerks who confused liberty with license got too high. Which is why Linden Labs has to go around killing temp rezzers because certain people can't accept the truth and think they know better than Linden Labs what "reasonable" means.
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