Why is Relay for Life Advertising on Adfarms?

I sent my trusty alt inworld and checked out the location in Carl's orginal posting, and the RFL ads have been replaced by an ad for Adsoft and one for Code4 (Ancient's company as well).

So I TP'd to a few other likely ad locations, and found a few more Adsoft towers, also on 32m2 plots (not a huge difference, to my mind, from 16m2 plots). No mention of RFL, tho quite a few ads for Adsoft.

Has RFL pulled the ads already?

In any case, I did not notice any pornography on ACS towers, tho I only checked a few. Tho decently laid out, the ads were unsightly, simply placed on stacks of rectangles, not spinning. Seems to me, Ancient, that your network is visual pollution.

It will be interesting to see what RFL eventually decides to do. Getting a policy decision made and implemented may take a little time.
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Even in that scenario, which I must say I have trouble imaging someone actualyl able to gather so many disconnected 16m lots, under the plan (http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-894), the TOP price they could charge for that entire 512m parcel is L$16384. Thats a pretty fair bargain compared to the prices they try to get today. U. Hax sets his for sale for L$9451. Again, rare, rare situation, and still a drastically improved situation.

Don't be too annoyed; this is just an alt of some silly child that has discovered that it can get its sticky fingers into the jam pot, and is now insistently declaring that stealing jam is a perfectly reasonable activity.

"Again to Puppet Shepherd: We have NEVER extorted money for our lots, because they have NEVER been for sale. To polite people, we offer lot switches, so people can get us another lot in the same sim, preferably closer to the road, and we’ll move for free. I am famous for never selling, so how can I be an extortionist?"

I'm only on page four, but I have to stop here and point out the disingenuousness of this statement.

These ad parcels were for sale at extortionist prices - like 9k for 16m - for a very long time, what, a couple of years?

Apparently he and Chrischun Fassbinder recently renamed their network.

What Ancient apparently means is, since they renamed it, they have "NEVER" sold these plots for extortionist prices.

Their parcel in my sim (Rosieri) was for sale for 9k for ages. (I didn't buy it, because I wasn't going to give them $36 U.S. dollars just to get rid of it.)

Then recently - probably around the same time they renamed their network, the parcel was no longer for sale, and the ad prims became taller.

So - take what he tells you with a grain of salt. It may be technically correct, but intellectually, it's a lie.

coco

Not to mention his partner C. Fassbinder who I had the pleasure of meeting when i was new when he swooped my land and stole it out from under me when I was joining two parcels.

If there was anything to be gained by it, I might do a "special".

On the other hand - nobody actually believes the squawkings that are going on here about how actually ad griefing is great, anyway.

Well, and that's it, isn't it? Everybody but the adgriefers has a significanly negative impression of them. The only people defending ad farms are adfarmers. If EVERYBODY hated me for what I was doing, that would be a clue to me that I should change my ways. One or two people might be deluded, but everybody?

I'm in the camp of those who say that they should be allowed to do what they do because people should be allowed to use their land as they please. That doesn't mean that they aren't despicable. They are. I've seen too many situations in RL where someone is doing something reprehensible but legal. Just because you are allowed to do something doesn't mean you aren't a scumbag for doing it.

Precisely. I wonder if Ancient's ad company wanted to use their ad network in conjunction with shops, malls and clubs, what's stopping them? I mean, a small amount of ad space (impressions) free each month to host a sign and give them a sip of what it can do and then allow them to order more space if they want it. Oh, right.. because they'd have to 'share' their profits via the free impressions. But wait a minute.. what about the fact that they could tier down to something manageable? Not having to pay LL more a month sounds like a good idea to me.

Wow, it is amazing how the dirt comes out in the RA "wash".

This place is better than Tide.

With any luck, RFL has pulled the ads, and will implement a policy against ever using this method of advertising. For those that still seem to think that ad farms anywhere in SL is a good idea, think of it this way. You put up a web site online, and one day someone's ad banner shows up on YOUR site. This is much closer to the effect in world than you putting an ad on your own site that folks end up seeing as they click on your site. It's devious, and the number of clicks/impressions made are not a reliable source of information in SL like they are on a regular web site. Ancient, sorry, but you're full of marketing speak that takes a long time to listen to, but says nothing real. I was one of those Caledonians who worked with Des and our absolutely fantastically brilliant SLRFL leader Miss Paris, to raise funds, and I will again this year. However, I'm sending my note of disapproval to the Chair about their use of ad farms.

Some of you people are really off the mark. Just so the good doesn't get tossed out with the bad, I'll name names:

Ordinal Malaprop: Totally misinformed and happy to spread that misinformation around everywhere. Please, tell me Ordinal, what are my alts and which products are you referring to? Don't let little details like facts get in the way, I'm sure your imagination will come up with something. As for my metrics, my virtual world metrics capture and analysis package has been used by IBM for over 6 months, and has been audited extensively. It is an enterprise grade product running on multiple quad core servers, and represents the state of the art for virtual world metrics collection, with 100% uptime for six months running. Real Fortune 100 companies find value in my metrics package, so your opinion is of no consequence because it is just that, an opinion with no basis in fact.

Cocoanut Koala: Pawn and shadow of Prokofy Neva, well known poster of vitriol and venom. Her info is so far off target that I’ll just tag this whole post as “False” with a blanket statement.

Nika Talaj: I did not design the ads, they were designed by ACS Staff. If you find them unsightly, that’s an issue for their art department. I only displayed the ads.

Qie Niangao: It is so wonderful that you guess that you can see the future! You should take all that foreknowledge and run, not walk, to the nearest Stock Market and use that prognostication to make some money . . .oh, but that would make it necessary that you guess correctly.

Talarus Luan: here is someone that doesn’t watch any main-stream news sources and is proud of it. Enjoy your cave and ‘nuff said.

Desmond Shang: Thanks for your words. As Desmond knows, it is my belief that the Main Land grid is the Wild West where anything goes, and I agree that it is precisely because of the chaos on the main land that gentrified sims like Caledon do well … if the mainland were as orderly as many in this thread would like it to be, Desmond might be out of business. As for Hard Numbers, here are a few:
From Launch of ACS RFL Kiosk Design Contest ad (January 18th, 8:00 PM EST) until Today (January 28, 2008, 8:00 PM EST):
Impression Minutes: 365,722 minutes
Unique Avatar Keys: 27,171 avatar keys
Requests (clicks): 184 request clicks
Sign-Ups: 54 sign ups.

The reason for this ad was to get artists and builders to sign up to create kiosks for the ACS. They achieved their goals, plain and simple.

For the complainers about Ad Extorsionist, say what you will but I do not fall into that camp. Call me a dreamer, call me thick-headed, but don’t call me late for supper and don’t call me an Ad Extortionist!

To all of those who rail on the concept of ads on the mainland, all I can say is make Linden Lab change the TOS, or stop complaining. If user generated content is too much for you, there are plenty of Closed worlds for you to play in, that don’t allow people to build content . . .just try There.com. . . but watch out, they have Ads too!

The technology may be impressive, but effectiveness? You call 6.7 thousandths effective advertising? 184/27,171 = .00677!

Not even one percent but 6.77 tenths of a percent?

And then for signups, 54.... out of 27,171? 1.99 tenths of a percent?

I am sorry but the hard numbers validate the premise that such advertising is not truly effective. How much does that cost for 10 days? I might get more looks & tps with an inworld classified ad of the same price!

What a disgusting attack.

Moreover, I knew that is exactly what Ancient would say. The one time I met him in world, when I was simply there to look at some houses, he launched into a similar attack, when all I'd said was to ask where the houses were.

I also suspected he would say nothing about why it was they sold these plots for extortionist prices for so long, and now claim to "NEVER" do it.

That plot in Rosieri was for sale, by them, for, I believe, 9k, for, I believe, a year or two. As I gradually increased my land for my shop, I found myself surrounding that plot. I traded it with them for one across the road from my shop.

Often I contemplated just buying it from them, even after it went to the roadside, but never could bring myself to.

coco

Blah, blah. It's not as if "Ancient Shriner" is an actual _person_; it's just an incorporated identity for a spam company.

I would also like to thank the RFL reps for coming to the forum to let everyone know what's going on.

Now I'd like to comment on something from the ad network owner.



Very interesting that you so heavily protest being lumped in with the adfarm extortionists, and then you turn around and say that everyone who's against adfarms is a land dealer, when many of us are just mainland residents and businesspeople who don't want to have your ads in our faces all the time. I will assure you this is not the case, and saying things like this just makes you look dumb.

As for your "impression minutes" - counting everyone within 40 m as the audience for your 32 sq.m. lots is deceitful to your customers. People who build walls to get away from your ads can't be reasonably counted as an audience to the ads. There is a HUGE difference between advertising in magazines and advertising to blank walls.

Cristalle: If you acquaint yourself with banner ad click though rates, or magazine ad response rates, you would immediately recant what you said. My closure rates are more favorable than these. Thanks for making the calculations, but you are missing some important points.

Average Banner Clicks on the Internet are about .5% ... you correctly calculated the ACS ad at .6% click-through rate, a full 20% higher than Internet averages. If you do your homework you'll see that what I have said about banner ad click though rates is correct, and I stand by it. These ads performed better than the straight Internet averages, and THAT is what marketers are looking for. Sorry to rain on the nay-sayer's parade, but seeing as banner ads are a billion dollar business, it is obvious that electronic marketers are satisfied with a .5% click though rate (but the ones I know are always looking for better!).

Disgusting is an understatement, Coco.

I can't imagine anyone being able to read that last post and not send a statement to RFL. I'm certain this will be resolved now because reading his posts will make them ashamed.

That's fine, Ancient - I see that it's only relative to other advertising. But answer the other question - how much would it cost for ten days? If I can place a well-crafted classified ad at the same price and get more TPs, I would challenge the effectiveness of it overall for SL as a platform, or medium. It's not just your usual web.

It would be more correct to say that the "impression minutes" are just long enough for me to jot down the name of the place in the ad.. and thus, never visit it. And I agree, I do not want to be counted as part of the impression numbers, because I am on my own land, not on the land of the ad. I block it, only to find that I'm being counted. *snorts* The only impression this has made on me is a bad one.

Also, there is a major difference in advertising in a shop with the shop owner's permission than to create an eyesore that makes the shop owner never want to use your services. I'd say, one is not an ad farmer, but a useful company to do business with, while the other is just an ad farmer.

I'm going to set the whole matter of whose ad network this is, aside.

I really don't know Ancient that well, but even presuming the worst, a 'trial by public opinion' is even more awful. Due process, folks.

* * * * *

On a separate note, we are looking at a very tricky question.

Gambling was unlawful for some, sexual ageplay was unlawful for some, unregulated banking was unlawful for some... all were banned. But as horrific as ads on towers can be... they are lawful.

What this comes down to is what the community considers to be 'broadly offending' in some way.

I don't see ad towers as very defendable - I personally think they are over the line, and devastating. But there is a kernel of a rights issue in all this.

Justice 'now' so often becomes irony later.




We need some sort of standard laid down, before the mainstreaming and Disneyfication of the grid declares ad towers, then goreans, then bdsm, then the gay become 'broadly offending.'

"But Desmond, come on, these are ad towers... you can't seriously compare that to the downfall of freedom can you?"

Well, consider if towers are struck down as broadly offending.

Then think of Google's and Yahoo's behaviour in China. Think you are going to wander around Chinese-accessible cyberspace in bdsm gear, or openly gay? We've already seen the impact of Germany's laws on a foreign-owned Company. Mainstreaming and "cleansing" may happen faster than you think.


So I say sure, declare giant ugly ads as broadly offending.

But let's verify, somehow, that:

1) there really is a mandate, and

2) that we know where the brakes are when Fundamentalist USA or Mainland China weighs in.


Yes, we need some kind of 'rights' statement, I think. There's a lot of interesting things that could be done in the name of "The Community."

They are lawful. And awful. The other things you mention, Des, don't impact other residents directly like a neighboring ad farm does. It destroys the view for all within its draw distance. If I wanted to look at ugly ads, I'd look out my office window at Sunset Blvd.

Also the things you mentioned don't lower my land's value if they are going on in my sim.

Sadly, ad farms prove that greed is ugly, and will proliferate in every world in which it's allowed.

The process of getting LL to work out a system to make their customers happy regarding adfarms is a large, long process.

Most of what we are talking about here currently, Desmond, is our rights as consumers to let a business (or charitable organization) know our thoughts and how they conduct business.

Though they are clearly intertwined they are not the same thing.

It is not unreasonable to expect people who state their opposition to RFL advertising in this manner to also state their reasons.

Unfortunately they were responded back to in a very defensive, rude and unprofessional manner.

Many of you will notice I don't have many posts to my name. The reason for that is I am so busy trying to build something up that I don't have time to answer totally baseless and factually challenged statements, because if I did spend my time doing that, I would do nothing else. There is no end to outright lying, as it is simple and temporally cheap to spit out a lie while it is time consuming to prove it false.

I called you out this time Cocoanut, because I have let your baseless lies slide off my back in the past but now I have had enough. To Bradley, if you knew the multi-year history of the grief that both Cocoanut and Prokofy (together) have put me through, then you would recant your statement. A short amount of time searching on Google will prove me correct. Not only was my reply not disgusting, it was 100% justified. I publicly challenge her to PROVE her statement that one of my lots was for sale for any amount. My lots have NEVER been for sale, and just so there is no confusion, I am not my partner Chrischun nor do I own Mr. Lee’s Greater Hong Kong, so if she mixes us up, that’s her problem.

As for Ordinal, I knew you would have nothing factual to say and would come up with baseless and defamatory lies. I am too a singular person, have not used alts, and am president of real company that has had real news stories about our work in Second Life displayed on CNN, ABC, CBS, Advertising Age, The Miami Herald, Wired, The New York Times, The Denver Post, The San Francisco Chronicle, and many more. Only the truly lazy wouldn’t be able to find out who I am. Transparency is necessary in Real Life business so I don’t hide behind my Avatar, unlike some.

Ok I'm about done playing in this sand box because too many of the kids here bite. I'm going back to getting stuff done . . .

I don't care what people put on their parcels. What I care about is their intent. If its to put ugly crap up for the obvious, direct purpose of ruining my experience and expect me to pay huge to get it back, then the system is failing me because it makes that business model work.

We will never come up with a set of criteria to define which content is good or bad... but we CAN decide that land parcels of very small sizes should have small value. Let people use them how they want, let em split large to small if they want, but give them incentive to combine. The forests of junk from the ad cutter/extortionists go away and can never return.

Can people still be jerks, put up ugly signs and try to entice people to buy over the going rate? Sure. That has been going on and can never be stopped... not at 16m, not at 512m, not at any size. But there should be a reasonable limit to how much can be earned being a jerk.

Change code, not people.

"Good fences and good code make good neighbors" - Phillip Rosedale

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Limit maximum sale price based on land parcel size, to combat ad farms
http://jira.secondlife.com/browse/MISC-894

Don't assume that because we aren't all "media whores" like you that we aren't successful people in real life too. You seem awfully fond of making assumptions about people who disagree with you. Maybe that's what you have to do to sleep at night, I don't know. I don't want to speculate any further on that.

Of course there's no need for you to set the AdSoft lots for sale when the company under the name of your business partner is doing plenty of extortion already.

I will reiterate, in case the original point was lost, that I will not knowingly do business with anyone who advertises on your network or on any other ad network. I am happy to continue to support the ACS in real life, but will not support the Relay if they continue advertising this way. It sounds like a good number of people see things the same way.