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Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women |
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Milla Janick
Empress Of The Universe
Join date: 2 Jan 2008
Posts: 3,075
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05-21-2009 20:09
Playing devil's advocate for a moment - I don't see many depictions (actually, none) of violence against males in Second Life. Maybe I just don't know the search keywords.  I believe "femdom" would be a good one to start with. There are plenty of guys out there who enjoy a mistress or master doing all manner of unwholesome things to them. _____________________
 http://www.avatarsunited.com/avatars/milla-janick All those moments will be lost in time... like tears in rain... |
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Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
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05-21-2009 20:11
Shane, I have no where made the claim to speak for any group; not for survivors of rape and abuse, nor even for the SLLU Feminist Network. I speak solely for myself here. No group is monolithic in makeup and view, least of all feminists. I will candidly admit that there are many in the SLLU Fem Net who disagree with my own views; that is precisely why I did NOT identify myself as a spokeswoman for the group. The same must be said for rape survivors: their attitudes and views, shaped even as they are by their experiences, are as diverse as anyone's. And, um, yes, thanks for the thoughtful advice regarding my inability to giggle. I'll be seeking professional help right away . . . Oh you spoke of the rp as an insult to rape survivors in your posts. That means you asked them all if it was an insult and spoke for them.... The only person you have the right to speak for is you, and your thoughts on it. It upsets you, they speak for themselves. That is the problem with the mascot use of rape survivors... you can't speak for them. They speak for themselves. _____________________
The scariest thing in the world: a lady chanting bunneh over and over in a super cheerful voice.... I lose too many outfits that way...
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
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05-21-2009 20:39
Oh you spoke of the rp as an insult to rape survivors in your posts. That means you asked them all if it was an insult and spoke for them... Actually, Shane, what I said was that RL victims of abuse and rape MAY not understand what is so much "fun" about RPing rape. And while there are no doubt many who disagree with me on this point, I can assure you, from personal experience, that there are many who agree. I am curious: how is it that when I talk about how RL victims may feel, I am using them as "mascots," but when you speak on their behalf, employing the example of the one (or two?) who have spoken up in this thread, you are not? You HAVE surveyed all such victims? Your characterization of their feelings is comprehensive in a way that mine is not? _____________________
Scylla Rhiadra
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-21-2009 20:44
I believe "femdom" would be a good one to start with. There are plenty of guys out there who enjoy a mistress or master doing all manner of unwholesome things to them. I guess that's the problem. I wouldn't call consensual roleplay "violent." Scylla, you take yourself wayyyy too seriously. I just love the mocking tone in your latest monologue. LOL!! Well, this has been an amusing exercise! It would be funnier, however, were it not also a little sad. I started this thread in the honest hope that I could initiate a dialogue about making communities in SL that are truly inclusive. I don't remember voting for you...? Is anyone else thinking of the scene in "The World According to Garp," when Ellen James tries to get the Ellen Jamesians to stop, and they refuse? Because their cause is so important even she doesn't understand it? |
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
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05-21-2009 21:00
I don't remember voting for you...? I needed to be elected to "initiate a dialogue"??????? Scylla Rhiadra flips madly through the Forum Guidelines, hoping that she has not committed a grand faux pas . . . _____________________
Scylla Rhiadra
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Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
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05-21-2009 21:01
Actually, Shane, what I said was that RL victims of abuse and rape MAY not understand what is so much "fun" about RPing rape. And while there are no doubt many who disagree with me on this point, I can assure you, from personal experience, that there are many who agree. I am curious: how is it that when I talk about how RL victims may feel, I am using them as "mascots," but when you speak on their behalf, employing the example of the one (or two?) who have spoken up in this thread, you are not? You HAVE surveyed all such victims? Your characterization of their feelings is comprehensive in a way that mine is not? Have those that agree speak up. As I say you hold them up as mascots, and I say they must speak for themselves. If you fail to understand the difference... I speak for nobody but me, and always have. I point out there are those in this thread and the other morality play one against a type of consensual role-play that disturbs some... there are survivors speaking out against your censorship of it. And as one that was almost made a victim by pressure from those that sought a mascot for their own ends... well I can say being labeled and treated as a victim is far worse of an insult than someone's RP _____________________
The scariest thing in the world: a lady chanting bunneh over and over in a super cheerful voice.... I lose too many outfits that way...
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
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05-21-2009 21:16
there are survivors speaking out against your censorship of it Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. Let's put this into some perspective, shall we? It is roughly equivalent to asking that you not have sex in a public park. Take it indoors, please, we don't want to see it. Ew. As for my supposedly speaking for RL victims, I will say again, one last time, that neither my language nor my the content of what I said suggest that I was trying to do so. The word I employed was "MAY." Let me see if I can help a bit. This is from the Oxford English Dictionary: MAY v.aux. [3rd sing. present may: past might] 1 expressing a (often followed by well for emphasis) possibility (it may be true; you may well lose your way) . . . I do want others to speak for themselves. That is why I started this thread in the first place. _____________________
Scylla Rhiadra
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-21-2009 21:28
Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. Let's put this into some perspective, shall we? It is roughly equivalent to asking that you not have sex in a public park. Take it indoors, please, we don't want to see it. Ew. Some people like it in public. You'll have to tp out or cope. Most importantly, how can we make our "community" here work in such a way that NO one feels censored, repressed, or unwelcome? I would really value your thoughts on this. We can't and you can't either. Your offense at peoples sexualities is your own. |
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Cal Kondo
Low impact
Join date: 7 Oct 2006
Posts: 143
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05-21-2009 21:28
Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. I would like to understand what you would consider as a definition of private? Would a dedicated sim with adult only access be private? I really can't recall a time when I have seen this sort of activity in an unexpected place. Sure, I've seen the occasional leashed person being dragged around shops, but that's not really what you mean, is it? |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-21-2009 21:31
I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. Yet the leader of the group you're in has stated plainly that she wants this type of roleplay out of SL altogether. Banned, as with ageplay. Since you can't very well cover (read: enforce legislation on) what people do in their own homes, virtual or otherwise, "private" as your allowance is meaningless. After all, people still ageplay in their own SL homes, too; we've heard first and second hand accounts of that, in these threads. And it's banned. But more than that - why should anyone trust that statement when your views on the topic are so emphatic. And black and white. But here's what I still don't understand. Where did you all come from, all of the sudden, and why are you under the impression that Second Life - officially or its residents - voted for you to try and 'lead us out of the wilderness'? Also - there's a touch of grandiosity in all of these types of posts. "Not trying to legislate...fanstasies...out of existence"? Is that even possible? Lol. It's an odd thing to even deny. And, once more - it IS private, if you consider that a TON of effort must be made to try and witness actual depictions such as you describe. Why are you searching for it? Why are you teleporting to it? Why are you ignoring the warnings and clicking on the agreements that you've understood the type of sim it is, only to claim victimhood later? You clearly DO want to stop it from existing in Second Life, and that's been the stated goal in these threads in more than one way by more than one person - "stop glorifying violence against women." How does roleplay glorify anything other than *those particular people's* fetish or fantasy? Again - what happens in someone's home is not even worth mentioning since people can already do pretty much whatever in their SL homes without much fear of being caught. So let's not even throw that in as a pretend gimme, alright? Does "public" in your view, mean on a sim instead of within a private (SL) home? If so that's kind of like a government professing that such & such will be made illegal - but you can do what you want in your own home. Does that even make sense? For instance in this case it would be against TOS to sell the animations, the props, etc. But - you can do what you want in your own SL home. See how you are insulting our collective intelligence? I do want others to speak for themselves. That is why I started this thread in the first place. People ARE speaking for themselves - and you want to ban it. Apparently the leper colony Ursula represents isn't enough for you? |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-21-2009 21:35
I needed to be elected to "initiate a dialogue"??????? Scylla, the preachy tone, the assumption we NEED you to TELL us what's wrong with Second Life, or to 'educate' us about it, gives every indication you feel you are somehow anointed. Forget appointed official, it's more like anointed official... I started this thread in the honest hope that I could initiate a dialogue about making communities in SL that are truly inclusive. There's the quote in question - the part about "making communities" was the part I was actually referring to. Politicians talk this way. |
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-21-2009 21:37
And as one that was almost made a victim by pressure from those that sought a mascot for their own ends... well I can say being labeled and treated as a victim is far worse of an insult than someone's RP Shane, this is a really good point for many victim or minority individuals. As well as the mascot point, a lot of people simply do not want or need some groups POV foisted on them as a social standard. I know many people who are somehow in some minority in some part of their lives and very few of them bother with it. Most actually really resent it. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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05-21-2009 21:42
Most importantly, how can we make our "community" here work in such a way that NO one feels censored, repressed, or unwelcome? I would really value your thoughts on this. You can't. Not totally. SL is used by humans and humans aren't perfect. You can't force everyone to like everyone, you can't make everyone get along, you can't even get everyone to want to belong to a community. You're right in SL isn't A community in and of itself, but there are communities within. They are inclusive in regards to the idea that they are made up of people with common interests and values. What you mean by inclusive beyond that I don't know for sure, but I get the feeling it is that everybody should share values, YOUR values on an SL wide basis.While there are communities in SL, there are also those who do not wish to belong to any particular community, individualists, noncomformists and loners. They don't want to be included in your or any community.Nor should they have to be. There is enough forced inclusion in RL as it is, Political Correctness seeks to tell us what to say, what to think, who to like and associate with. The leftist agenda seeks to strip all individuality and uniqueness from us, everyone should be the same, adhere to the same officially approved values, no one should be allowed to stand apart from the group, or follow their own path. You are free to have your own community in SL just as much as any other group. But I do not wish to be included in it.I'm not a leftist, nor much of a feminist, at least in the sense it is being used in this discussion. Call me an individualist. I prefer to think and act on my own. It's becoming hard enough to do in RL, and most likely will be just as difficult in SL in due time. _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
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Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
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05-21-2009 21:48
Scylla, the preachy tone, the assumption we NEED you to TELL us what's wrong with Second Life, or to 'educate' us about it, gives every indication you feel you are somehow anointed. I'm not detecting any 'preachy tone' or 'assumption' about people needing Scylla to 'TELL' us anything. I'm certainly not seeing any evidence of a belief in being "annointed."* Those are your perceptions---to which you have a right, of course. But the wording of the post I quote does seem to indicate that you feel justified in claiming that YOUR perception (that the tone is 'preachy' and that Scylla assumes a need to 'tell us') is inarguable 'fact'. *I'd be interested to to know what evidence you see of a belief in being 'annointed', and in which comments you see it......? |
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-21-2009 21:48
That's something I've been wondering too. Maybe I'm just stupid. Isn't "inclusive community" a redundant phrase?
What I've noticed, in SL and in RL, is that people tend to join groups they want to join, and to segregate *themselves* if anything. But then I grew up in a mostly-free society. ETA: Posonby, it isn't clear to you the difference between fact and opinion? Math equations are fact. Assertions in a discussion as to individual perceptions involving 'tone' and such are opinion. |
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Kira Welty
Registered User
Join date: 15 Aug 2008
Posts: 125
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05-21-2009 22:05
You have the right to buy your own land and set any rules you like for it.
You have the right to band together with like minded individuals and form a community within SL with the rules you collectively choose to have. You have the right to ban, eject and limit access to anyone you want to from your land or your collective communities land. You have the right to AR someone if you feel they are breaking the TOS or CS. These are the very same things the rest of us have done to have our communities the way we want without stepping on anyone's else ability to have fun (see the TOS) I would suggest starting there, if there is a need or a demand for what you seek your community will grow. You do not have the right to define or tell someone else what they can or cannot do on their property in SL (including privately owned malls), unless it is against the TOS or CS, if it is AR them and let LL deal with it, (IE let the police do their job) Your tone, your questions, your statements and reactions speak volumes. Live and Let Live _____________________
Safe, Sane & Consensual ~♥~ Live and Let Live
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Autumn Palen
Registered Lurker
Join date: 24 Feb 2007
Posts: 111
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05-21-2009 22:17
Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. Sure you are: you wish to curtail/suppress a type of role play to a space "you" define as acceptable. Let's put this into some perspective, shall we? It is roughly equivalent to asking that you not have sex in a public park. Take it indoors, please, we don't want to see it. Ew. Not even remotely equivalent. In over 2 years of being in SL I've never seen this type of role play outside of sex specific sims. You pretty much have to be looking for this type of role play to find it, and the place descriptions make it very clear what is going on there. You are "not" going to stumble across it a virtual public park/mall/clothes store. As much as the idea of an all inclusive "community" where you can go anywhere and feel ok is a nice thought, it's simply not the reality, in either life. Some parts of town are going to offend us, some movies at the theater are going to offend us, some restaurants will serve things we find distasteful. We simply exercise our choice not to go to such places if we find them offensive. |
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Talon Brown
Slacker Punk
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 352
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05-21-2009 23:00
Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. As the one that uncovered the talking points and goals of you and your associates by all means tell me which parts of this you disagree with and which parts you do agree with but aren't actually "censoring": By publically expressing our views we risk being seen as prudish or as advocating censorship and in so doing endangering the ethos of Second Life. We are not any of these. We do however feel we have a responsibility to make our views known and to try to influence change. We are therefore beginning a campaign against the public depiction of rape in Second Life. Rape is the most extreme form of sexual violence against women. There remains among rapists and potential rapists the myth that women (some at least) secretly welcome this kind of sexual abuse. Therefore when we hear the argument that rape doesn’t exist in Second Life because it is consensual we are not reassured. We have no real understanding of the emotional impact on those taking part in such activities in Second Life or how such role play may influence behaviour in physical life although there is a body of evidence about the impact of extreme pornography in other media. Just as in age role play there is nothing we can do about couples or groups enacting rape scenarios in private. There is however something we can do about the acceptance of rape role play in ‘public’. We are aware of the plans to create ‘adult’ Sims and see this not as an opportunity to ‘ghettoize’ rape role play but as an opportunity to take rape role play out of the Second Life experience. We therefore call for the following to be designated as breaching community standards and to therefore be the subject of abuse reports with the usual consequences. Groups or Sims advertising or promoting rape play The sale of rape animations or skins depicting victims of rape Pornographic images of rape in any form As individuals we may want to adopt differing ways of campaigning but as members of this group we agree on these aims and will do our best to support each other in our campaign and to bring the issue to the attention of the wider Second Life community. |
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Looli Vella
( ~^_^)~
Join date: 9 Feb 2007
Posts: 148
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05-21-2009 23:10
I'm a feminist. I have a joint degree in Women's Studies and Communications. I have taught Women's Studies in university, been part of a collectively run women's centre, and worked for feminist organizations. I even when through a phase where I spelled it "womyn" and "wimmin."
I engage in rape roleplay in SL. I see no incompatibility with these two things. Unlike other posters, I think words are powerful, and I do believe that some speech should be considered a hate crime. I think that people can be damaged with words, and I am not a blanket defender of free speech rights. I have seen many people hurt, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually by harassment (words), to the extent of it damaging their health and affecting their ability to earn a living or feel safe in the world. But roleplay is none of this. Roleplay is a consensual, collaborative activity. It isn't really possible to be raped in SL. In my experience, even areas that are designated for rape roleplay, aren't violent free-for-alls. Even if someone were to innocently wander into many of those areas, their av would be "safe" since--again, in my experience--there is some negotiation before anything happens. It's not unheard of for people to be jerks and IM something stupid, violent or gross, but that's not limited to RP areas, and as others have mentioned, there's little you can do to prevent that sort of thing, but many tools you can use to deal with it if it does happen (ignore, AR, etc.). I do agree that depictions of rape are not entirely unproblematic. It is something I grapple with myself--how do I reconcile my feminism not just with the fact that this is fantasy that I enjoy, but that in RPing this fantasy in SL, I am putting those ideas out into the world in a way that does not happen when I am merely thinking about it or even if I were RPing in the privacy of my own (RL) home? Part of how I reconcile it is that we are all consenting adults, and the locations wherein I engage in this behaviour are CLEARLY marked as such. I suppose that is "unwelcoming" to anyone who finds rape roleplay repugnant, but better to be unwelcomed than to be horribly surprised. I don't agree that banning any public mention of these activities is a reasonable demand. Another part is that it's been FUN and the partners I RP with have, to a one, been clever and articulate, thoughtful, funny and respectful. I'm a pro-porn, pro-sex feminist, I always have been. I believe that people have the right to explore what is in their hearts and express their longing however they want and need to, so long as they have the informed consent of all involved. |
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RockAndRoll Michigan
Registered User
Join date: 23 Mar 2009
Posts: 589
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05-21-2009 23:32
The very concept of community itself, automatically makes it unwelcoming.
For example, the radio control enthusiast. They want to be around other RC people. So they form a community. Everybody flies an RC plane, drives an RC car, sails an RC boat, etc. RC is everything to that community. So along you come with a kite. You want to fly your kite with the RC airplane buffs? You're going to feel unwelcome very fast. Because you don't belong. So you go join all your kite flying friends. Hey, some of them even belong to the RC group you just came from, what the heck? Well, they go hang out with them when they want to fly RC planes, of course. Different goals, different community. The same thing exists in SL. So it is impossible to foster any kind of a sense of community which does not make people feel unwelcome, like you originally asked about. The goal is not compatible with forming community in the first place. Either you make the people who like the things you don't unwelcome from all of SL, in which case you have made the entire thing do a fantastic job of making people not only feel unwelcome but actually BE unwelcome, or you allow things to be like they are already: In location X we have created a place where we engage in activity Y, and if you don't want to participate in Y, go to location Z, or keep your mouth shut because we're doing Y here anyway. |
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Ceka Cianci
SuperPremiumExcaliburAcc#
Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
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05-22-2009 00:16
i don't have time to read the whole thread..it's 2:30 in the morning lol
To me, Second Life is a community. Or, perhaps more accurately, a community of communities. I value that diversity enormously, just as I do the cultural diversity in the city in which I live in RL: I think that new perspectives, even those that challenge my own views, are a vital part of a pluralistic and democratic society. basically it is a community of home and business owners.. there are some public places but more or less most sims and lands are privately owned  But communities DO need to establish "rules" for themselves. For a pluralistic culture to work, most importantly, every voice needs to feel welcome. This is why most free and democratic societies have rules against hate speech: it is not about banning free expression, but rather about preventing intimidation and threat from silencing those who are the targets of hate. If I see a hate message directed against my ethnic background scrawled on a wall, I (naturally) feel unwelcome, and as though my voice and perspective are under threat. If I see a representation of violence committed against an ethnic group, I know that there is an implied threat there, too. in the democracy which sl is based in.a home owner/business/land owner ect. can pretty much do whatever they want in their house within the law and SL's TOS..in the way i was raised is you respect the persons house you are in.. you don't walk in someones house saying ..hey i don't like that take it down..or hey this offends me change it so others like me can be happy just knowing it's not there anymore...freedom of expression is public.. when in someones house/sim that is not your own if they don't want you expressing yourself in a certain way it is their right to say you can't... because they have also invested into a piece of that dream called the pursuit of happiness.. In this context, I have a question about the continued prevalence of representations of violence against women in Second Life. Here, I am expected to encounter, and countenance, the depictions of graphic and often gruesome violence against women all the time. I see a number of cultures that devalue and degrade women, or that make "games" out of simulating torture, mutilation, and murder. But I am not supposed to take this "personally." SL does not allow swastikas or racist slogans; it doesn't permit sexualized age play. Nor should it. So why is it permissible to express hatred against women through representations of this kind? if they are doing that in a place it is not allowed i would AR them.. that's the best way to handle that kind of thing.. Most importantly, how can we make our "community" here work in such a way that NO one feels censored, repressed, or unwelcome? I would really value your thoughts on this. i would say we all respect each other and understand that what i may not care for may be something someone else values.. i've come to learn that fair is in the eye of the beholder.. that what i may thing is unfair or fair someone may seen as fair or unfair..that in public we must do what the majority wishes and has had passed as laws..that the bill of rights was not just written for me alone...that i have to respect everyone's full rights not just the few i choose to admire..so they don't trample on mine. In order to forestall the inevitable stock responses, let me say the following: -- I am not equating SL depictions of rape with RL rape. Yes, SL rape is a sim; yes, in most cases it is probably consensual. I am concerned about the REPRESENTATION of rape, not the whether it may or may not be actually occurring in SL. ok let me see if i can get what you are saying here.. you are not relating SL rp of rape with RL rape.. you are sure SL rape is a simulation. that sometimes people do get raped in sl.. but your concern is not any of that stuff.. just the representation of rape.. not that it is being played out in role play or actually happening in SL.. all i would say is AR the offending items if they are not in areas they belong.. -- I am not anti-sex. In fact, I'd prefer to see representations of consensual sex in the "Mature" areas, rather than on Ursula. I actually like sex. And it likes me. -- I am not pro-censorship. See above. The only kinds of self-expression that worry me are those that contain an explicit threat of violence and hate, and an associated implication that other voices should be silenced. you are not pro-censorship when it suits you is what you are saying -- I am not the "thought police." I have absolutely no interest in your private fantasies, fetishes, or prejudices. My concern is when your PUBLIC expression of them degrades and silences others. if anyone is having sex in a public place missionary or not i'm gonna say get a room lol  _____________________
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Tegg Bode
FrootLoop Roo Overlord
Join date: 12 Jan 2007
Posts: 5,707
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05-22-2009 00:30
To me, Second Life is a community. Or, perhaps more accurately, a community of communities. I value that diversity enormously, just as I do the cultural diversity in the city in which I live in RL: I think that new perspectives, even those that challenge my own views, are a vital part of a pluralistic and democratic society. But communities DO need to establish "rules" for themselves. For a pluralistic culture to work, most importantly, every voice needs to feel welcome. This is why most free and democratic societies have rules against hate speech: it is not about banning free expression, but rather about preventing intimidation and threat from silencing those who are the targets of hate. If I see a hate message directed against my ethnic background scrawled on a wall, I (naturally) feel unwelcome, and as though my voice and perspective are under threat. If I see a representation of violence committed against an ethnic group, I know that there is an implied threat there, too. In this context, I have a question about the continued prevalence of representations of violence against women in Second Life. Here, I am expected to encounter, and countenance, the depictions of graphic and often gruesome violence against women all the time. I see a number of cultures that devalue and degrade women, or that make "games" out of simulating torture, mutilation, and murder. But I am not supposed to take this "personally." SL does not allow swastikas or racist slogans; it doesn't permit sexualized age play. Nor should it. So why is it permissible to express hatred against women through representations of this kind? Most importantly, how can we make our "community" here work in such a way that NO one feels censored, repressed, or unwelcome? I would really value your thoughts on this. In order to forestall the inevitable stock responses, let me say the following: -- I am not equating SL depictions of rape with RL rape. Yes, SL rape is a sim; yes, in most cases it is probably consensual. I am concerned about the REPRESENTATION of rape, not the whether it may or may not be actually occurring in SL. -- I am not anti-sex. In fact, I'd prefer to see representations of consensual sex in the "Mature" areas, rather than on Ursula. I actually like sex. And it likes me. -- I am not pro-censorship. See above. The only kinds of self-expression that worry me are those that contain an explicit threat of violence and hate, and an associated implication that other voices should be silenced. -- I am not the "thought police." I have absolutely no interest in your private fantasies, fetishes, or prejudices. My concern is when your PUBLIC expression of them degrades and silences others. So why is it good enough to oppose it when it happens to women but not men, you sound pretty sexist to me. What about when it happens to representations of animals, plants and furniture and appliances? If you can't handle the heat, piss off out of the kitchen, no one makes you go to a X-rated area and watch anything here, and there's no proof depictions, roleplay or TV shows cause and increase in RL attrocities, for gawd sake oif you want to do something spend a 10th of the effort you did here in doing something in the real world. Go fix it first, as this world revolves around RL moral values and it's pretty obvious that the general concensus so far has been opposed to child porn enough for it to be a rule, but no such outcry over anything else here by the masses. I be so glad when puritans can only wander the Disney grid, so we don't get all these 6 month noobs and alts telling everyone what they can and can't do in an adult area. _____________________
Level 38 Builder [Roo Clan]
Free Waterside & Roadside Vehicle Rez Platform, Desire (88, 17, 107) Avatars & Roadside Seaview shops and vendorspace for rent, $2.00/prim/week, Desire (175,48,107) |
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Melodie Darwin
SL Answerless
Join date: 8 Feb 2008
Posts: 180
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05-22-2009 00:35
Shane, I am not trying to "censor" you or anyone else. PLEASE read what I have actually said, will you? I am not trying to legislate your fantasies, or anyone else's, out of existence. I am not even telling you that you shouldn't act them out in SL: merely, that you do so in PRIVATE. I have said all this, explicitly, above. Let's put this into some perspective, shall we? It is roughly equivalent to asking that you not have sex in a public park. Take it indoors, please, we don't want to see it. Ew. Unless such fantasies are being acted out at a welcome center, or Protected Land, then they are not in public. They are being acted out on land where the owner of the land allows it. Don't like it? There are thousands of other sims and communities to choose from. Building a community goes beyond climbing on a box and preaching from it. What do you do to build an alternative other than censorship? That is exactly what you are trying for. To expand on my earlier post. I was talking about myself. I am a survivor (no victim here tyvm) of both rape and domestic violence. I found my way to SL as an outlet while I was escaping the domestic situation. The things which happened to me do not mean that I do not allow myself adult relationships. Some of the most open and honest people that I know in SL were ones who I met on a particular rape sim. It is where I met my partner. I am still friends with many from there. My partner and I rented an apartment there until we made the jump to our own land. My time in that environment allowed me to explore my own personal demons in a controlled environment. A friend and I explored a relationship and talked for hours as well which helped in incredible ways for me to throw my RL problem out on his rear. These were not pitying conversations where my friend tried to speak for how I may feel. It was an exchange and exploration of ideas untl I felt 100% ready to do what I needed to do. Those are the things which create a community. Assuming that someone MAY feel upset about something there are more than enough alternatives to is presumptuous, self righteous and offensively sickening. It is the exact special-ness that many times will keep a victim a victim rather than empowering them to become a survivor. Speaking for how others may feel is the only sad thing in this thread. It takes control away from those who most need to have it for themselves. _____________________
Preserved in pixel amber
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Desmond Shang
Guvnah of Caledon
Join date: 14 Mar 2005
Posts: 5,250
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05-22-2009 00:36
I'm a feminist. I have a joint degree in Women's Studies and Communications. I have taught Women's Studies in university, been part of a collectively run women's centre, and worked for feminist organizations. This is what I've been thinking too. What's valid street cred for feminism? * * * * * I've quietly run a community where public display of rape has *never* been acceptable, slavery isn't recognised and discrimination is outlawed. Hell, I banned sexual ageplay before the Lindens did; gambling too. And I've run this community successfully for years, with rights for others embedded right smack in the covenant and enforced. My little micronation has more equal rights than most western countries. We've been a safe haven for psychologically abused women, men, and gay victims for *years*. With professional psychologists, health practitioners and legal experts in our community, with tons of resources at their fingertips for those in trouble. Who have actually helped people get back on their feet through referrals and just plain common sense counseling (about as much as can ever be done online). I'd say that gives me pretty solid credentials as a feminist, and more. What, a man dares to say this? You bet I do. Anyone can run around Caledon and check it out with the locals. Nah, I didn't come into the forums championing this cause. That doesn't make anyone a feminist, necessarily. Like many others, I have been doing this *all along* one case at a time. * * * * * I detect some intellectual dishonesty here. It seems like this whole subject is an assault upon us evil peoples of the grid... but it's a lecture, not a discussion and was never intended to be a discussion. What's the meat of this? It could be so simple. For instance: "I propose that all public simulations of rape on the grid are a form of hate speech, punishable by removal from the grid." That would be a clear topic to discuss, something that could be signed onto or not. Instead, we are being talked down to, in a manner "more feminist than thou." Having been there for people on this grid for years, having been there to pick up the pieces for plenty of women in terrible real life situations for decades, I'm just not buying it. This whole thing reminds me of when a nineteen year old comes to my door to discuss spirituality. Rarely do the self righteous even realise who they are talking to. _____________________
 Steampunk Victorian, Well-Mannered Caledon! |
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Ponsonby Low
Unregistered User
Join date: 21 May 2008
Posts: 1,893
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05-22-2009 00:42
Posonby, it isn't clear to you the difference between fact and opinion? Math equations are fact. Assertions in a discussion as to individual perceptions involving 'tone' and such are opinion. In what way do these observations address the questions I asked you in post #188? It's as though you 'answered' by stating 'it isn't clear to you the difference between rocks and roses? Rocks are mineral. Roses are vegetable.' I mean....sure. That's quite true, or at least is true according to commonly-accepted definitions of the words involved. Just as your comments about facts and opinions are basically true according to commonly-accepted definitions of those words. But an airing of definitions of 'fact' and 'opinion' does nothing to address my questions to you. (Reread the post and you'll see that this is so.) |
