Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-22-2009 03:42
From: Lord Sullivan Common shared groups. Both have the feministnetwork.blogspot.com in their profiles and several other similar nuances that would lead me to believe they are one of the same person. But I could be wrong of course  Scylla Rhiadra NPIOF Amnesty International-E Minerva Guests Shakespeare Sister SL Left Unity Ledoof Constantineau PIU Amnesty International-E Minerva Guests Shakespeare Sister SL Left Unity The blog is very enlightening talking about such things as AR'ing BDSM animations etc. Go Figure eh Left wing Feminists who need educating with the clue stick, although I may get AR'd for suggesting the clue stick lmao LOL |
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Kara Spengler
Pink Cat
Join date: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,227
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05-22-2009 03:43
From: Bith Wierwight Right...I've done all that, and have a degree (among others) in Women's Studies too LOL. And am a crazy leftist-brand feminist. Still the OP needs a bit of schooling in real world feminism methinks. /me Points out that several other people at one of the feminist/queer places she volunteered at thought she was an employee  Anyway, just said that to point out that rolling out our feminist creds tends to sound a bit hierarchical. In SL anyone can be anything, so that system only exists if all of the parties involved want it too. The same for any topic in SL you do not like .... if you don't like it nobody is forcing you to participate in it.
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Ledoof Constantineau
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 25
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05-22-2009 03:44
Qie, it was an angry response after reading insults aimed in my direction for the last two or three days and I make no apology for it. Turning the other cheek and not rising to the bait would of course be the better option, in this instance I wanted to verbalise my anger in some way and I think that's ok.
I'm here speaking as individual. There is no uniform position on this issue in the feminist network or any other group I belong to in SL - some agree, some don't and there's been excellent discussion & debate within the network in particular.
The purpose of citing the consultation document and mentioning the introduction of legislation was to highlight that this is not merely an issue for those who populate Second Life and that other factors may well come into play regarding this type of content.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-22-2009 03:45
I must've missed this gem the first read: From: someone I posted here because I had a question to ask Do you really think we are that stupid? You had your agenda and campaign well formed before you got here. You were not asking a question - you were launching a plan. That isn't "paranoia" it's observation. Your own scripted manifesto has been outed. Besides, it's obvious that those things are currently allowed by LL - and for someone as heavily into research and sources and quotes as you have shown to be, here, surely you could've looked up any of the scads of pages on the topic on this site. And/or LL's outline of its adult content policy here or on its blog. COME OFF IT ALREADY! From: Ledoof Constantineau Qie, it was an angry response after reading insults aimed in my direction for the last two or three days and I make no apology for it. Oh puh-leez, come off this whiny victim stance too. You wanted discussion (supposedly), you got it. It just wasn't likely what you wanted to hear. *Opposing views are not insults.* |
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spinster Voom
Registered User
Join date: 14 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,069
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05-22-2009 04:01
From: Looli Vella I'm a feminist. I have a joint degree in Women's Studies and Communications. I have taught Women's Studies in university, been part of a collectively run women's centre, and worked for feminist organizations. I even when through a phase where I spelled it "womyn" and "wimmin."
I engage in rape roleplay in SL. I see no incompatibility with these two things.
Unlike other posters, I think words are powerful, and I do believe that some speech should be considered a hate crime. I think that people can be damaged with words, and I am not a blanket defender of free speech rights. I have seen many people hurt, psychologically, emotionally, spiritually by harassment (words), to the extent of it damaging their health and affecting their ability to earn a living or feel safe in the world.
But roleplay is none of this. Roleplay is a consensual, collaborative activity. It isn't really possible to be raped in SL. In my experience, even areas that are designated for rape roleplay, aren't violent free-for-alls. Even if someone were to innocently wander into many of those areas, their av would be "safe" since--again, in my experience--there is some negotiation before anything happens. It's not unheard of for people to be jerks and IM something stupid, violent or gross, but that's not limited to RP areas, and as others have mentioned, there's little you can do to prevent that sort of thing, but many tools you can use to deal with it if it does happen (ignore, AR, etc.).
I do agree that depictions of rape are not entirely unproblematic. It is something I grapple with myself--how do I reconcile my feminism not just with the fact that this is fantasy that I enjoy, but that in RPing this fantasy in SL, I am putting those ideas out into the world in a way that does not happen when I am merely thinking about it or even if I were RPing in the privacy of my own (RL) home?
Part of how I reconcile it is that we are all consenting adults, and the locations wherein I engage in this behaviour are CLEARLY marked as such. I suppose that is "unwelcoming" to anyone who finds rape roleplay repugnant, but better to be unwelcomed than to be horribly surprised. I don't agree that banning any public mention of these activities is a reasonable demand. Another part is that it's been FUN and the partners I RP with have, to a one, been clever and articulate, thoughtful, funny and respectful.
I'm a pro-porn, pro-sex feminist, I always have been. I believe that people have the right to explore what is in their hearts and express their longing however they want and need to, so long as they have the informed consent of all involved. Very Well Said. OP, your "inclusive" community would exclude and censor me. Can we get clear exactly what you are arguing for? In your OP you say ... From: someone -- I am not anti-sex. In fact, I'd prefer to see representations of consensual sex in the "Mature" areas, rather than on Ursula. I actually like sex. And it likes me.
-- I am not pro-censorship. See above. The only kinds of self-expression that worry me are those that contain an explicit threat of violence and hate, and an associated implication that other voices should be silenced. Together with your subsequent posts, I take this to mean that you are OK with public sex as long as it isn't of the type that offends you. Please could you clarify. I find it a little disingenuous that you say you are not pro-censorship while being part of a group which seeks to ban certain types of sexual expression from the grid (and OF COURSE people are going to dig around a bit to find out where you are coming from). I got the notecard too. Your group does have an agenda and you are making yourself look very silly trying to deny it. |
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Talon Brown
Slacker Punk
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 352
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05-22-2009 04:06
From: Melita Magic Do you really think we are that stupid? You had your agenda and campaign well formed before you got here. You were not asking a question - you were launching a plan. That isn't "paranoia" it's observation. Your own scripted manifesto has been outed. Yup, that's personally what has offended me the most about this whole thing. The "we're just innocently asking questions and none of this was planned, how silly to suggest otherwise!" I mean really, condescending "debate" is one thing, thinking we're all too stupid to see what they're actually doing here is another. I'd have had more respect for them if they'd just admitted they were a group in favor of their position instead of being so damn cowardly about it. |
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Ledoof Constantineau
Registered User
Join date: 10 Aug 2006
Posts: 25
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05-22-2009 04:25
Melita, I can only re-iterate that there is no uniform position on this issue in the network or any other group I belong to in SL. There are other people who share my perspective - some in the network, some not - and would like to challenge the proliferation of depictions of rape and sexual violence against women in SL and are looking at ways of doing so. My ideal would be that there would cease to be a demand for it.
I disagree that there's clarity from Linden Lab and I wanted to see if anyone here had further information. Using this forum to launch any sort of plan would be folly. It is good - if you can wade beyond the bile - to see a range of perspective's though and there have been some really interesting posts here.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-22-2009 04:32
I never said there was a "uniform position" - I don't even know who else is in the group, have never spoken to them, have no idea if they've posted on the issue publicly, or what their views are. I don't think I even mentioned "uniform position." I said that YOU had a plan when you came here; was it you or Scylla who even used the word "agenda"?
In the end it doesn't much matter, anyway. LL makes up their own mind, in their own time, in their own way, on their own terms. The rest of us can continue talking in circles and chasing our tails, it won't change that.
The 'clarity' can be seen in the simple fact that it is NOT banned to do the types of things or sell the types of things you have said you object to. However I agree that the timing stinks, since these things are *already* being shunted to a separate continent, and people are losing businesses and investments because of it. People aren't likely to be receptive to anyone beating a drum to call for MORE censorship and restrictions right about now.
If you've read the Lindens' blogs and other posts on this and similar issues and are not satisfied, I doubt anyone here can clear it up for you. We have access to the same resources YOU do. You need to attend some brown bag meetings and ask the Lindens yourself.
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Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
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05-22-2009 04:37
I have an idea- let the OP and cohorts meet the Zeitgeist guy from a few days ago- wasn't he trying to make some inclusive community that included- well - him?
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
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05-22-2009 04:39
From: Ledoof Constantineau I thought the cartel here was all about free speech? I guess free speech for some of you only applies when it's on your terms. Some people have engaged in a discussion others have simply got together in a pack and attemped to silence and intimidate.
I haven't seen anyone try to shut down your speech. If you can't stand the heat that your views bring you.....maybe you should take up knitting or grow a thicker skin. I am sure there are plenty on this board who would love to shut me up. But 2 1/2 years later, I am still posting. You can only be intimidated if you choose to be.
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Melita Magic
On my own terms.
Join date: 5 Jun 2008
Posts: 2,253
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05-22-2009 04:40
Btw - I am curious - on what grounds, Ledoof, did you AR "forced doggy style" and the other animation? It is not against TOS to sell those.
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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05-22-2009 04:46
From: Ledoof Constantineau <snip> there is no uniform position <snip> /thinks: she may be right; those tight pencil skirts the females in the armed forces used to wear in the Second World War make it impossible. Pep (There's your answer, Ledoof!)
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Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
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05-22-2009 04:49
From: Ledoof Constantineau Melita, I can only re-iterate that there is no uniform position on this issue in the network or any other group I belong to in SL. There are other people who share my perspective - some in the network, some not - and would like to challenge the proliferation of depictions of rape and sexual violence against women in SL and are looking at ways of doing so. My ideal would be that there would cease to be a demand for it.
I disagree that there's clarity from Linden Lab and I wanted to see if anyone here had further information. Using this forum to launch any sort of plan would be folly. It is good - if you can wade beyond the bile - to see a range of perspective's though and there have been some really interesting posts here. LL's view is simple: As long as it does not violate California or US law, or it's own ToS/CS it is fine. Even if it offends your sensibilities. So kindly stop parading your dislike for something as a moral outrage. Or do you have a list of books and movies that should be removed, that include depictions of rape and sexual violence? I listed all the tools you need, kindly use them. Banning anything that is totally consensual is censorship plain and simple. You've played the hand at the wrong time... between the blog, notecard, etc... you have a major problem. Said notecard was recently passed around by many that I know play in the CARP sim... including one of your group members surprisingly. There are simple truths you refuse to accept. Freedom to express yourself is going to be at the price of someone being free to express themselves even when you don't like what they do. I see in you the same lack of empathy that I saw in others words and speech when I was labeled a poor little victim. It could very well be the medium, but it's hard to mistake the stance. It's not about them, it's about what you want... they in this case being the ones that haven't managed to take the first steps of being survivors because to do otherwise is to be a victim. (and you have to let them know... it's always their choice to be treated as a victim... or a survivor.. for me it was finally getting fed up with the treatment and walking out of the session with the shrink.) I've worked in a halfway house and orphanage for a few years. I've seen the type that used it as a bullet point on their resume... to make themselves look good for pushing their dislikes forward as moral outrage. They helped none, simply pretended to care for the poor little victims.... giving canned speeches, extra blankets, etc... they couldn't even remember the names and faces of those they were assigned to help. And if you were not on the list assigned to them... they would shrug and send you on to someone else. Saddest part of dealing with them... they actually felt good thinking they helped.
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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05-22-2009 04:54
From: Shane Roxan <snip>Banning anything that is totally consensual is censorship plain and simple.<snip> Gambling and ageplay in sl have been banned and both of those were consensual. Pep (Do you consider those to have been censored?)
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Shane Roxan
Registered User
Join date: 16 May 2009
Posts: 187
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05-22-2009 05:08
From: Pserendipity Daniels Gambling and ageplay in sl have been banned and both of those were consensual.
Pep (Do you consider those to have been censored?) In a word yes Doesn't mean I agree or like one or the other. But it was censorship.
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The scariest thing in the world: a lady chanting bunneh over and over in a super cheerful voice.... I lose too many outfits that way...
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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
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05-22-2009 05:46
From: Melita Magic Btw - I am curious - on what grounds, Ledoof, did you AR "forced doggy style" and the other animation? It is not against TOS to sell those. Probabbly abusing the gross obcenity clause of the community standards... Forgetting that she isn't the community. The community don't see a problem with it.
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Dana Hickman
Leather & Lace™
Join date: 10 Oct 2006
Posts: 1,515
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05-22-2009 05:58
From: Scylla Rhiadra I started this thread in the honest hope that I could initiate a dialogue about making communities in SL that are truly inclusive. There's nothing wrong with making "truly inclusive" communities within SL. However, a similar notion of making ALL communities in SL "truly inclusive" by making them free of these types of fringe roleplay IS wrong. In my opinion, consensual RP of rape, or a similar type doesn't in itself qualify it as something that needs to be banned as no crime is commited, there is no victim, and participation is optional. A lot of stuff like this used to routinely get LL's blind eye, but could also earn the owner an unscheduled vacation if in the wrong area or too blatant. The adult content changes appear to fix a lot of that inconsistancy and give it a home. Exposure to it once the AO continent and adult rating are implemented can only be deemed as "willful", so anyone getting "impacted" by rape representations after the AO change arrives will have clearly asked for it. |
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Ian Nider
Seeds
Join date: 20 Mar 2009
Posts: 1,011
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05-22-2009 06:12
Being gay or into bdsm to be a classed as a disorder. These days they aren't and it's a good thing.
Sorry Lee"feminist network notice" Scylla, or who ever you are, but sexual prejudice just doesn't wash in the modern world.
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Innula Zenovka
Registered User
Join date: 20 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,825
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05-22-2009 06:27
From: Pserendipity Daniels Gambling and ageplay in sl have been banned and both of those were consensual.
Pep (Do you consider those to have been censored?) Gambling, I think, ran into problems with US law relating to internet gambling (or, possibly, PayPal's response to such laws; US PayPal won't, I gather from their website, offer merchant services to sites that might allow PayPal accounts with US billing addresses to be used for gambling). Ageplay, quite apart from the fact that -- rightly or wrongly -- it's considered a good deal more abhorrent by most people than are the sorts of rape fantasy RP which concern the OP -- would itself run foul of laws against online child pornography in some places. It's a nice point, but I think in a British court you could probably convict someone indulging in it of using their PC to make indecent images of children. It would certainly fly, possibly way up the appeals system, and probably disprove, at least for Linden Labs, the adage the "all publicity is good publicity" in the process. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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05-22-2009 06:31
From: Innula Zenovka Gambling, I think, ran into problems with US law relating to internet gambling (or, possibly, PayPal's response to such laws; US PayPal won't, I gather from their website, offer merchant services to sites that might allow PayPal accounts with US billing addresses to be used for gambling).
It wasn't just PayPal it was all Credit Card companies. They were all forbidden to process gambling transactions.
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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05-22-2009 06:36
From: Shane Roxan In a word yes
Doesn't mean I agree or like one or the other. But it was censorship. You have a most amusing concept of "censorship" then.  Pep (And not one with which I would consider a coherent argument possible)
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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05-22-2009 06:41
From: Innula Zenovka <snip>Ageplay, quite apart from the fact that -- rightly or wrongly -- it's considered a good deal more abhorrent by most people than are the sorts of rape fantasy RP which concern the OP This, so far, unsubstantiated belief appears to be central to your argument, and indeed that of many other commentators here. I am as yet unconvinced. If you really want that sort of potentially outrageous statement to be taken seriously then you should offer evidence of its accuracy. Pep (Even a poll of forumites would be a start)
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Alexander Harbrough
Registered User
Join date: 22 Feb 2009
Posts: 601
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05-22-2009 07:04
From: Scylla Rhiadra Carl, if you were to call me a "whore," that would be a kind of expression of free speech. I can respond to that: I can tell you why I am not.
But if you say "You're a whore, and I want to beat the crap out of you," you are not stating an opinion to which I can respond, you are making a threat that is intended to silence me. That is what a rape sim does.
Do you REALLY believe that free speech is ABSOLUTE? That anyone should be able to post ANYTHING? No worries about libel, for instance? You can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre? Free speech is also about responsibility, just like owning a gun. You can use it, IF you use it intelligently and responsibly, and without causing grievous harm to someone else. I would be really worried about any woman who wanted or like the idea of the crap being beaten out of her, rape or not. Threatened, though, can be another matter. The sense of lack of control can mean ability to surrender entirely to the sexual aspects without feeling guilt over them (since you are being 'forced' you have no choice). 'Punishments' play into that too. Regardless of how the scene plays out, though it is very important to work things out in advance, pay attention to your partner (regardless of gender or role) and get a strong idea of their desires and limits. I would recommend caution, and as in all things, moderation. In SL, though, there is no physical risk. Not only does that mean that it is safer physically, but that physical aspects can be played out that are simply not practical in RL. There is no risk of loss of circulation or chafing from bonds tied too tight.... corporal punishments such as whips are much more practical, since noone's real body is actually cut.... and the emotional impact of the physical side of any violence is diminished too. |
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
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05-22-2009 07:05
From: Lord Sullivan ALT's sprang to mind LOL! Yes, that's right Lord Sullivan. There is in fact only ONE member of the SLLU Fem Net, with about 80 or so alts. We/I in fact are secret operatives working for an underground organization (a sort of sinister alien hive-mind) that is seeking world domination: we were responsible for 9/11, the crisis in Iraq, world oil prices, the current financial meltdown, and the break-up of Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt (Angelina Jolie is actually another one of my alts . . .)
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Pserendipity Daniels
Assume sarcasm as default
Join date: 21 Dec 2006
Posts: 8,839
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05-22-2009 07:12
From: Scylla Rhiadra LOL! Yes, that's right Lord Sullivan. There is in fact only ONE member of the SLLU Fem Net, with about 80 or so alts. We/I in fact are secret operatives working for an underground organization (a sort of sinister alien hive-mind) that is seeking world domination: we were responsible for 9/11, the crisis in Iraq, world oil prices, the current financial meltdown, and the break-up of Jennifer Anniston and Brad Pitt (Angelina Jolie is actually another one of my alts . . .) Sorry, I meant to post that as myself. Pep (You have all seen right through me, haven't you!)
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