Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women

No, not a vote for censorship.

Scylla, people like you terrify me. You really do.

Yes, I would be offended and frightened if someone burned a cross on my lawn, or scrawled some hate-filled graffiti on my house.

But people who blithely assume that there is such a thing as a "hate crime" are much more worrisome. Because they would have us believe that it is desirable to punish not actions, but thoughts and motivations.

I am appalled to think that such muddleheads are now in charge of my country's government.

Nobody's forcing you to experience content that you find offensive. No one is engaging in anything against their will here. Yet you would step in and eliminate people's free choices. Not because they are doing anything harmful, but simply because you don't happen to like it.

Oh...it IS Friday, isn't it? Never mind...

Equally respectfully, Viciously, I think that, whatever its proper or intended target, an awful lot of this "outrage" has been directed against me personally. I wish we could be more civil in our discourse, but I am also not about to collapse in a heap because of that.

I entirely agree that there IS a danger of the "slippery slope." I think we DO need to be vigilant to make sure that the "line" between personal rights and freedoms, and collective rights and societal well-being does not slide too much in one direction or another. The initial problem, of course, is finding a place for that line that we can all live with. I also think you can take the "slippery slope" argument too far: does our fear of this mean that we must be extremists and absolutists in all things? That compromise is never possible?

Since when has it been different? They're all members of the Politician Party.

I don't find it difficult to avoid SL content I find offensive, and I don't have a problem asking others to do the same thing.

This material is almost always limited to places dedicated to it. I have never accidentally blundered into extreme roleplay in a welcome area, shop or other inappropriate location.

In my experience in Second Life, roleplayers of all sorts are pretty good about respecting the sensibilities of others.

Sorry if I missed this, Scylla...but did make an attempt to catch it somewhere in the posts....but hard to keep up!

May I ask.....to what extent have you participated in these role-play situations? To what extent have you studied the behavior on these role-play sims? Have you actually studied the dialogues and behaviors?

Have you had an actual role-play dialogue concerning the subject you are talking about? If so....how many?

To what extent have you studied the background/demographics/psychological make-up of those participating? Have you had one on one discussions with the participants to determine motives...effects and outcomes?

If you have not attempted the above....can you make an assessment and a judgment?

Would you like to participate in the roleplay....so that you can speak with at least a tad bit of background? Would you like to participate in one of these role-play sims....by immersing yourself for a few days.....I can arrange that with a few friends....and I bet a few others here would be willing to introduce you to a few of those sims....and to a few of the more skilled roleplayers....or even an average role-player.....so that you can experience the behavior/dialogue that you are attempting to discuss.

Would you be willing to do that....in order to discuss this subject with some background information and experience and with first hand knowledge?



I am offering you an opportunity. And believe that it would be a "worthwhile enterprise" for you to actually study the behavior that you are discussing.....and that you will "gain from the experience" some things that you might not be acknowledging or had no idea even existed. It may even help you with your dialogue here....as you are discussing the subject with people who have actual experience in these role-playing situations.



That's a lofty goal. If you're truly willing to attempt it.....simply taking the time and effort to "Understand" a community.....might be the first step?

/me waves for attention...
Thank you

I would just like to point out for the contributants - if we go away ourselves the Op will be ranting into empty corners - Might I assume the following itmes? We have found there is an agenda, we have found the OP to be intolerant to the views of others; we have found the OP to (unsubstantiated and assumed) be unexposed to the consentuality behind much of this?

I propose then that the OP attempt yet another new thread as this is a tad played out.

~~

to OP and other feminist bent on saving me and other females ~

Lady listen up - I can damn well take good care of myself - i have beaten the living crap out of some ass that thought otherwise - if he had won I would be dead, but still would have 'won' cause i fought back- no one AND I MEAN NO ONE- will put me where i do not choose to be - trust me -

The sort that listen to this have not felt their own power and need to find it for themselves. And no- I will not be classed as a feminist - I am not - I will not have my place taken from me by anyone trying to shove their version of 'my freedom' down my throat - I like my freedom just fine - at the end of my Lord's leash in SL - and at the end of my very own fists in RL - you don't belive me- try me-

- Too much spent on this nonsense - back to my happy-happy, joy-joy...

Carry on -

If you were from saudi you would say the same thing about the pixelated depiction of gay acts (in fact, SL is allegedly banned in saudi). What defines a nation of true freedom: If the law doesn't care about what two or more consenting adults are getting off from. The OP keeps forgetting that while most Gor slaves and female RP characters are probably guys in female avatars there *are* women playing slaves and rape victims and "getting off" from that. The OP wants to take away women's rights to express their fantasies in freedom.

(I am fully aware of the fact that SL is not a country but a privately owned business and that LL may decide to ban whatever content they deem detrimental to their goals. What we want to see in SL is actually moot to discuss because it's not our decision. The only decision we can make is about leaving or staying.)

Well, Scylla, yes we are! Some of us are also prepared, in the interests of freedom, to accept things which we DO personally find offensive, as long as those involved are all consenting adults. Who is censoring you? You are here, repeatedly stating your (in my opinion, offensive and discriminatory) views and I haven't read a single post saying you shouldn't have that right. You just don't like the feedback you are getting.



Ah ok, thanks for clarifying. Personally, I am not, I think it is trashy and impolite (by "public" I do not mean sex clubs etc.: I exclude from "public" any place that advertises itself as a sex venue). AFAIK it's against the TOS anyway, even before the upcoming changes in policy. All adult content is supposed to be behind walls. I really don't get why you think it's OK to inflict your sort of sex on passers-by, but not OK for those with different sexual orientations from you to do the same.



Wrong.
As a good old-fashioned masochist, I don't indulge in play in SL as I find the lack of any actual pain a bit of a let-down.



"We" are not a society, we are customers of a private company which can impose whatever ToS it wants to.



You used the word "censor" in your first post, but in any case I can't think of a better word for what you want to do.



I have no idea where "we" draw the line. *I* draw the line at anything involving non-adult or non-consenting individuals. As I said in the other thread, I think as soon as you go beyond that and try to legislate on grounds of taste, you are on slippery ground.



as I said above ...

1) I don't play in SL.
2) Adult content (even your yukky sickly-sweet vanilla kind) should be behind walls in any case. If you are coming across overtly sexual content in places where it can be accidentally stumbled upon by a passer-by you have every right to AR it. No new restrictions are needed.



ROFL!
Oh, I do love irony!

I completely agree that finding that place in the middle between personal rights and social well-being, is the place we want to be.

Where I question your position is when what happens to an imaginary avatar on a computer screen somehow slips into the area of social well-being. At the point where we start assigning the reality of well-being to things that are not actually real ... that would be the point where I think middle ground has slipped into social engineering.

Overall, Milla, I think you are right. Please note (and I HAVE said this before) that I am not "attacking" role players, or ever role playing.

But I HAVE accidentally walked into Gorean sims, or inadvertently found myself at dance clubs that feature sexually violent animations or images. And I know others who have as well.

Right. But my issue has never been with what happens to the "imaginary avatar."

I probably COULD make an argument that "consent," for instance, is more problematic in SL than is usually depicted, but I am going to concede that, in the vast majority of cases, there is probably no "harm" in engaging in this kind of role play. My argument has always instead been about the impact of the public depiction of this kind of image or animation.

If you don't buy the argument (for which I think there is good evidence) that hate messages or extreme pornography cause harm to society or to at least some of those who are exposed to it, you probably aren't going to accept my argument. So be it, that's another argument for another day. But just to be clear, I am NOT in any way equating SL rape simulations with the real thing.

Those are the appropriate places for those things.

They aren't that difficult to avoid, and if one does accidentally run into something they find distasteful, they should probably leave.

When the 1.23 viewer and Adult region classification go into effect, these things will be even easier to avoid.

You didn't reply to my questions and description of what actually happens in those so violent Gorean sims.

I would like to know which of the many Gor roleplay sims you have accidently stumbled into based on the fact all the roleplay sims you land in a market or safezone where you are given notecards with sim rules, combat rules, allowed weapon lists and warnings of what to expect before you enter. This isn't only to prevent the innocent walking in by mistake but needed between the sims as all of them interact in roleplay.

Also what sort of sexually violent animations and images are you referring to in Gor? As its roleplay I, in a year and a half, have never seen a rape poseball there, most is text based and as for images, what sort of images in theme based areas? I have been captured in roleplay many many times but not once raped and never seen rape poseballs.

I do not believe you could have accidently walked into a Gorean sim unless you managed to land at a market, ignored the signs and notecards and took the teleports down to the roleplay areas. Heck even us that are there all the time travelling around sims have to read the roleplay rules of each before tping down to check we don't use an item not allowed.

i'm still curious about something..

when you say public places are you speaking of places that only LL controls?
or are you speaking of places open to the public that are owned by residents?

i'm just trying to set all the clutter aside to see which you are speaking about that is being offensive to you..

is it someone dropping a prim with pictures on it or pose balls in public places ran by LL

or is it private owners that have opened up their sims to SL to share with people that may have the same interest?

or is it both?

None.. I am a Pixie, it is my job to upset and offend.. that way, they use their brain, and in using their brain, might.. just might.. have a thought.

I take responsibility for my actions. That does not mean I sacrifice my personal freedom to make someone happy, it means I will do as I see fit in any given situation. If taking care of a friend means I don't go to xyz show that I paid $150 for, that's fine. It was my choice to do that, not a "You must do this or else".

The other person is free to say anything they want, because I have the freedom to turn off listening. If they are showing something I don't like, I have the freedom of turning away and not seeing. And I demand the same freedoms in return.

It was one of the tools of suppression of blacks in the US well after the West was won.

There were lynching parties. People would make a picnic out of it. Take pictures, make and send postcards.

Did you ever hear the song "Strange Fruit" that Billie Holiday sings?

.

Accidents happen. You stumbled onto THEIR places, they didn't force it on you. You can just TP away, and note the place never to return. You can't guarantee not stumbling upon something that you disagree with, unless you REMOVE it completely. You are about censorship of things you do not approve of, in my opinion, plain and simple, no matter how much new age feminist and leftist rhetoric you try to wrap around it. You don't want people seeing , doing or even thinking about anything that YOU find offensive. This stuff could be locked away in 100% secure part of the grid, but that won't be enough for you. The idea that others want to see it or engage is unacceptable to your kind.

No outrage at her personally, but at her cause most definitely. This is the cause of the Nanny Staters, those who feel THEY know whats best for us, that we should not be allowed to think for ourselves, make our own choices be they right or wrong, and to take responsibility and suffer the consequences of our actions. They want to dictate where we work, how much we can earn, what property we should own, and to create a world where everyone is the same. Individuality and personal achievement is to be scorned and despised for the good of "The Community".

*End of Rant*

i've been here a few years and found it pretty hard to accidentally stumble into a gorean sim without hitting the safe zone they all have that floods you with note cards about their rules and warnings..

same with places to do with sex such as a mall that may have a free sex club attached with it..
explanations are on land marks ,search engine adds and in about land and note cards when you get to a place..
if you accidentally stumbled past all that then you have a disregard for reading the warning signs..
they all have them..

My answer would be none. That is, I am *not* willing to sacrifice any personal freedoms simply to ease your sensitivities, and I could care less if you are offended.

You speak as though everyone should be deserving of respect, but I personally disagree. I only respect those who have shown they are worthy of respect.

That said, I will continue to publicly shop around SL with my girl on her leash. I am proud of her and of our intimate connection and I like everyone to see that. I do it because it makes her happy and me happy. I don't do it to make others uncomfortable, they are the furthest thing from my mind. The fact that someone may find it offensive just proves that they are ignorant and have already drawn a number of false assumptions about something you know nothing about. In short, they are very unlikely to be deserving of my respect right off the bat. I do not respect ignorance and narrow-mindedness.

<.<


One does not simply walk into Gor...


>.>

I guess we will have to respectfully not agree, as I think according to your words, you certainly do have issues with what happens to an imaginary avatar.

This is not a slam, just a point of view. You seem to want to draw a line that says the act that is happening is imaginary, but the view it portrays is not, and that is sends some sort of message.

I counter that by saying it is all imaginary, event he view it portrays. Laying in this stupid hospital bed the other night, I watched some old movie where James Bond beat up two martial arts women. It was just a movie ... no actual women were beat up. It was just a movie!

So respectfully, I think your position draws a line that most here can't draw. You are trying to make the act sureal, and but the imagery real. It's probably why you are getting the response you are getting. Second Life is fun ... I like building, and shopping, and flying ... but, it is still just a game, a simulation, a place to play.

The acts are a game ... and the images it shows are a game.

my exact point..

QFT.

I count myself as a feminist too, and find it absolutely appalling that the feminist label is being used to push this agenda in a fantasy environment.

This makes it sound like your entire goal here is nothing more than a troll by the thought police.

There really is no privacy in SL as its possible to cam into anywhere. Why else would you want a dungeon to move their items 10m back from the walls? You have cammed into and intentionally sought out sex areas that you do not agree with. If a rape sim has a rundown urban wasteland feel to it, its gonna also have poseballs nearly everywhere. It's not a public depiction. It is a free sex area.

If you are not equating SL rape simulations with real rape then why are you so concerned about impact or harm from it? The adult grid is people over 18 who are all capable of the freedom of choice.

SL is a pixelated cartoon universe. Roleplay is nothing more than good theater by those who choose to participate in it.

You have yet to state your "good evidence". What are you willing to compromise to? If people are not violating laws, the TOS, or community standards then they are free to use their imaginations.