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Inclusive Communities and Representations of Violence against Women

Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
05-21-2009 13:43
From: Scylla Rhiadra
Brenda, I have absolutely NO objections whatsoever to you experiencing whatever fantasies you wish in SL, with this proviso: my objection is to when you do so in public, in a way that implicitly (even if unintentionally) makes a statement about attitudes towards violence against women.

Believe me, I am not in favour of legislating thought, fantasy, or fetish.

I can agree with you on this. I do believe on a time and place for everything. Sometimes the in" your face of SL" is garatuitous and unnecessary. But blame for that falls on LL for not enforcing their existing land rating, content and community standards
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Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
05-21-2009 13:44
SL is voluntary contribution and participation. We go there because we want to. If it offends you - please leave. There are lovely not-seamy, pink cotton candy places all over the web-

You believe you are speaking for he 'victims' - but the victims are only in your mind. If you want to understand these concepts, talk directly to the participants; find out if anyone feels victimized. It will utterly amaze you how your mind can change if you let a little light in.
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"Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. "
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 13:46
From: Brenda Connolly
studies show a surprising number of women, or men for that matter, have some sort of rape or forced sex fantasy with them as the "victim". I don't think many fantasize about being lynched. I think there is a difference

I take your point, but I don't see how it really impacts upon mine. I am quite happy to acknowledge that women and men have such fantasies. I am not trying to prevent them from having them, nor am I sure I am even against these being acted out in SL. Again, it's about it being done in PUBLIC, in such a way as says to other women "We rape women here. You are not welcome." Consent isn't the issue: it's the message that is the problem. Remove it from sight, and no message is being sent. That, I think, I am (conditionally) ok with.
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Scylla Rhiadra
MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
05-21-2009 13:46
From: Scylla Rhiadra
MortVent, are you suggesting that the fact that women are vulnerable to being raped in certain places in RL means that they should just stay off the streets? Frankly, this is exactly what I was talking about when I suggested that this sort of imagery, these depictions of hate, silence their victims. Don't want to be raped? Well, don't go out at night! Does this mean that women who ARE raped are to blame for it?

I am very concerned about violence against men and furry animals. The prevalence of rape against males, for instance, is far higher in RL than most people recognize. It's just that in SL, those damned pose balls ALWAYS seem to be pink!


If you know an area is crime ridden, it's your choice to enter it and risk being a victim.

I feel sympathy towards those that suffer violence, hell I've smashed an ex-buddies jaw with my boot when I caught him ignoring the lady saying no and about as much damage to the other two guys. And I sure as hell told her she was a moron when it was all and done for going behind the bar with 3 drunk and horny guys.

In sl nobody makes a person hop on a poseball.

Here is a clue, the imagry is always going to be there in the world. It's part of our fairy tales, the bedtime storys we tell our kids... the disney movies we show them.

There is a resposnability for every thing a person does.

They don't ask for it, but they also have to try and avoid it. The world (digital and physical) is not some padded saftey pen. There are sharp corners and dark pits, nobody is going to be able to make them poof... there will always be monsters in the world because the knights in shiney armor are simply monsters that have chosen to prey on even worse ones.
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Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

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Treasure Ballinger
Virtual Ability
Join date: 31 Dec 2007
Posts: 2,745
05-21-2009 13:47
I am often offended in SL. I am offended and horrified every time someone posts to the forums 'Hey where can I find a noose?' And gets a whole slew of fast responses where they can get one. It's offensive and hurtful to me, as a RL black person. So, should these places that sell or provide nooses in SL stop doing so because I am bothered by it? Why? I need to not go there, or involve myself in any way, shape or form. This isn't rl. So to ask, would we in rl allow a city to ban blacks or jews? Probably not, nowadays. But SL doesn't have those types of laws/rules. In rl, if I am walking in a place where I am afraid, then what can I do? I can leave, hope I get away safely. In SL, if I am afraid, I can go away. I can tp out, log off, go home, turn the computer off and go read a book. There is no reason for me to be in a place that has me afraid, viscerally, in SL. What I'm saying is that those people who are depicting that violent imagery against women (some of them may be women too, who knows) have the same rights as I do to 'your world your imagination.' Their imagination is different from mine. That's to be expected, because they are not me.

It can't be ok for me, and not be ok for you too. I can't equate RL with SL. It's just not the same. In RL it's not 'my world my imagination 'at all.
Amaranthim Talon
Voyager, Seeker, Curious
Join date: 14 Nov 2006
Posts: 12,032
05-21-2009 13:48
From: Damien1 Thorne
Outside of the random griefer kiddies, NO ONE HAS to see things in sl that they would find objectionable. It is the person's choice to go to those places.
Then again.. there are those wandering noobs just walking into people's homes...
(please hide the dungeon key, I am sure the OP would be horrified at Hera's horrible home life)
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"Yield to temptation. It may not pass your way again. "
Robert A. Heinlein




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Love Hastings
#66666
Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
05-21-2009 13:50
From: Carl Metropolitan
Yes it is. I didn't even have to read the rest of your post. Why is it that every would be censor starts off their new proposal for more monitoring and more repression of free speech, with a "I'm not against free speech".

Newsflash. You are not for free speech. You are for free speech that you want to hear. There is a lot of crap in the world that I don't want to see or hear. Usually I can avoid it, but from time to time, I will see something that offends, insults, or hurts me.


Apparently isn't not just free speech, but also thought on this person's agenda:

From: Scylla Rhiadra
I MAY of course be wrong about this, but I am rather guessing that people who are getting off on watching or participating in the rape of an avatar are fantasizing that it's a real person being victimized? Surely this is true of all porn?


So apparently it's wrong because of what the participants are thinking.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
05-21-2009 13:50
From: Scylla Rhiadra


But if you say "You're a whore, and I want to beat the crap out of you," you are not stating an opinion to which I can respond, you are making a threat that is intended to silence me. That is what a rape sim does.

Do you REALLY believe that free speech is ABSOLUTE? That anyone should be able to post ANYTHING? No worries about libel, for instance? You can yell "fire" in a crowded theatre? Free speech is also about responsibility, just like owning a gun. You can use it, IF you use it intelligently and responsibly, and without causing grievous harm to someone else.



I am not Carl, but I am going to respond.
I do see a difference between "....and I want to ...." and "... I am going to....." . But the best thing is to let a jury decide.

I do REALLY believe that free speech should be ABSOLUTE. Libel, is it stated as fact or opinion? "You are a whore." vs "I think you are a whore" or " I consider you a whore" And of course the truth should always be a defense. Yelling fire in a crowded theater. Was anyone hurt? If yes, then charge the person who yelled with assault. Did the theater lose money? If yes, that should be a civil action against the person. The ticket holders lose use of their tickets? Another civil action. But there would have to be actual damage, not just hurt feelings.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 13:50
From: Oryx Tempel
I don't know if you read the rest of this forum, but we just went through an entire thread about this.

Awwww! Oryx, I didn't mean to ignore you!

With respect, I did follow the other thread, but didn't contribute to it because I think it asked something rather different from what I wanted to know. THIS thread is a response to the other, in the sense that I wanted to take a different perspective on the subject. I really AM interested in resolving what I see as a problem, through consensus. I want SL to be a place where we have diverse welcoming communities, and I honestly do want to know how we resolve the obstacles that appear to me to stand in the way.

(This said, I largely agreed with what the other poster had to say in her thread)
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Scylla Rhiadra
Brenda Connolly
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Join date: 10 Jan 2007
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05-21-2009 13:51
From: Carl Metropolitan
There are almost no places in the US where it is OKAY to be a racist. However, it is LEGAL (nearly) everywhere to be a racist. What is not legal is discrimination based on racist attitudes.

Racism is a term that has been so wildly abused and over used it has lost so much of it's resonance. Institutional racism is easy to define, but is telling a "Polack joke" racist? Or is it merely bad taste? Was Archie Bunker a prejudiced loudmouth or was he a racist? Is choosing to live or associate with those like you racism or freedom of association? We dream of the neat and orderly social utopia, but it isn't so easy where humans are concerned.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 13:53
From: Skell Dagger
"...they writhed
gasping as Scylla swung them up her cliff and there
at her cavern's mouth she bolted them down raw—
screaming out, flinging their arms toward me,
lost in that mortal struggle."


LOL. I should think that you would take that as a warning, Skell . . .
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Scylla Rhiadra
Carl Metropolitan
Registered User
Join date: 7 Jul 2005
Posts: 1,031
05-21-2009 13:54
From: Chris Norse
Carl, I hate to do this to you, but I agree 100%. I hope your reputation can handle that.


It's no problem. My reputation has handled being good friends with quite a few widely disliked people in SL...
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
05-21-2009 13:54
From: Carl Metropolitan
It's no problem. My reputation has handled being good friends with quite a few widely disliked people in SL...



/me laughs long and loud.
_____________________
I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart

“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur

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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 13:56
From: Chris Norse
Until the "hate" is manifest in an act of violence against another, what else would you do? Thought crimes? No thanks.

"Thought crimes"? I do wish we could get past the stock responses to this debate, and have a real discussion.

As I noted in my original post, and elsewhere in this thread, I couldn't care LESS what you "think." What concerns me is when you express it in such a way that it DOES have a real impact on the rights and freedoms of others.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Skell Dagger
Smitten
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 1,885
05-21-2009 13:56
From: Scylla Rhiadra
LOL. I should think that you would take that as a warning, Skell . . .
You're not bolting me down raw, thank you. I'm not into girls.
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Brenda Connolly
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05-21-2009 13:57
From: Scylla Rhiadra
I take your point, but I don't see how it really impacts upon mine. I am quite happy to acknowledge that women and men have such fantasies. I am not trying to prevent them from having them, nor am I sure I am even against these being acted out in SL. Again, it's about it being done in PUBLIC, in such a way as says to other women "We rape women here. You are not welcome." Consent isn't the issue: it's the message that is the problem. Remove it from sight, and no message is being sent. That, I think, I am (conditionally) ok with.

I'm beginning to think those conditions are pretty steep. How do you propose to "remove it from sight?" You can't guarantee anything in regards to privacy in SL. The only way to remove it from sight is to remove it. Period.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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MortVent Charron
Can haz cuddles now?
Join date: 21 Sep 2007
Posts: 1,942
05-21-2009 13:58
From: Scylla Rhiadra
"Thought crimes"? I do wish we could get past the stock responses to this debate, and have a real discussion.

As I noted in my original post, and elsewhere in this thread, I couldn't care LESS what you "think." What concerns me is when you express it in such a way that it DOES have a real impact on the rights and freedoms of others.



we have posted, we do not concern us with what you think. Only in how you express those thoughs in a manner that has an impact on the rights and freedoms of others
_____________________
==========================================

Bippity boppity boo! I'm stalking you!

9 out of 10 voices in my head don't like you... the 10th went to get the ammo
Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 13:58
From: Brenda Connolly
Not trying to minimize the topic, but it seems odd that we've had 2 threads in this vein in the span of a week.

Brenda, see my response to Oryx below. I'm not sure why it should seem "odd" that you've had 2 threads on this subject in a week. Is there a quota? Do other topics get their threads rationed out?

You will see MORE threads on this topic for a while, because the issues raised by Ursula are so important. I think it's as simple as that.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Brenda Connolly
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05-21-2009 13:58
From: Chris Norse
/me laughs long and loud.

He hasn't been accused of being one of your alts yet..just wait.
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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Ashe1 Writer
Searching & Seeking
Join date: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 1,138
05-21-2009 14:00
From: Treasure Ballinger
I am often offended in SL. I am offended and horrified every time someone posts to the forums 'Hey where can I find a noose?' And gets a whole slew of fast responses where they can get one. It's offensive and hurtful to me, as a RL black person. So, should these places that sell or provide nooses in SL stop doing so because I am bothered by it? Why? I need to not go there, or involve myself in any way, shape or form. This isn't rl. So to ask, would we in rl allow a city to ban blacks or jews? Probably not, nowadays. But SL doesn't have those types of laws/rules. In rl, if I am walking in a place where I am afraid, then what can I do? I can leave, hope I get away safely. In SL, if I am afraid, I can go away. I can tp out, log off, go home, turn the computer off and go read a book. There is no reason for me to be in a place that has me afraid, viscerally, in SL. What I'm saying is that those people who are depicting that violent imagery against women (some of them may be women too, who knows) have the same rights as I do to 'your world your imagination.' Their imagination is different from mine. That's to be expected, because they are not me.

It can't be ok for me, and not be ok for you too. I can't equate RL with SL. It's just not the same. In RL it's not 'my world my imagination 'at all.


Absolutely, 100% agree with this statement. Wonderful posting Treasure :)
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Ashe
Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
05-21-2009 14:01
From: Carl Metropolitan
It's no problem. My reputation has handled being good friends with quite a few widely disliked people in SL...
It's an honor. (^_^)y
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Somewhere in this world; there is someone having some good clean fun doing the one thing you hate the most. (^_^)y


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Scylla Rhiadra
Gentle is Human
Join date: 11 Oct 2008
Posts: 4,427
05-21-2009 14:01
From: Chris Norse
I do support and will defend to the death my right of free association which also includes the right to not associate if I so choose. I will support and defend to the death my right to say exactly what I think when I want to say it.

Thank you for the Jeffersonian platitudes, Chris. They are noted.
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Scylla Rhiadra
Brenda Connolly
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05-21-2009 14:02
From: Scylla Rhiadra
Brenda, see my response to Oryx below. I'm not sure why it should seem "odd" that you've had 2 threads on this subject in a week. Is there a quota? Do other topics get their threads rationed out?

You will see MORE threads on this topic for a while, because the issues raised by Ursula are so important. I think it's as simple as that.

It's just the dynamic of his forum. There is a pattern somewhat to how the topics come up, but I'll grant that Ursula can be the catylyst. Ursula should be part of your solution, no? It is meant to be a place to put activities "out of sight", isn't it?
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Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.

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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
05-21-2009 14:04
From: Treasure Ballinger
I am often offended in SL. I am offended and horrified every time someone posts to the forums 'Hey where can I find a noose?' And gets a whole slew of fast responses where they can get one. It's offensive and hurtful to me, as a RL black person.

Off-topic: Why is a noose necessarily associated with black people? The Old West RP sims use them all the time ("Horse-stealin's a hangin' crime";) I understand your visceral reaction, Treasure, esp re: the KKK, but I don't think a whole lot of people RP that sort of stuff. Nooses can be for Hallowe'en, Old West, haunted houses, etc.

This is what bugs me about these conversations - what is play to one person is hate crime to another, for two completely different reasons.
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Chris Norse
Loud Arrogant Redneck
Join date: 1 Oct 2006
Posts: 5,735
05-21-2009 14:04
From: Scylla Rhiadra
"Thought crimes"? I do wish we could get past the stock responses to this debate, and have a real discussion.

As I noted in my original post, and elsewhere in this thread, I couldn't care LESS what you "think." What concerns me is when you express it in such a way that it DOES have a real impact on the rights and freedoms of others.


When you tell me I can't express my thoughts, you are telling me how I can or cannot think. Words do not cause physical harm, physical harm is all the law should punish. You don't have the right to not be offended. As for having a discussion, what is there to discuss? You want to limit those you disagree with. Something I find more repulsive than any "censored" word.
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I'm going to pick a fight
William Wallace, Braveheart

“Rules are mostly made to be broken and are too often for the lazy to hide behind”
Douglas MacArthur

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