ok. The end is nigh

Second Life is "space-like". People who do not want to use voice are effectively excluded from some *locations*, because the conversations in those locations are predominantly voice. Communities in SL are oriented around locations, so people who do not want to use voice are excluded from those *communities*. If you aren't on the "wrong side" of the voice divide, you might not see it. If you are, it's as clear as the prims on your head.

I hardly ever use voice, I've never been accused of hiding anything. The divide you're hinting at, I would hazard a guess, is more an issue of the divide between being male or female.

Yet some people have difficulty typing well, or spelling well. They get embarrassed and prefer voice. All voice does is offer a choice.

If SL were smaller I'd see more of an issue with voice, but it's not, there are plenty of communities and plenty of locations.

If a community develops via voice, then that's the way the community evolves. The same as communities will evolve in numerous ways that some people like and others do not like.

Precisely! What an articulate ferret you are!

But unless you are not physically capable of speaking (and/or hearing), you are excluding *yourself* from those spaces.

As far as the information sharing.....I've found people in SL to be much more honest, because they are not on one sole "Mission." Take "The Mission" away, and add some other variables such as exploration and creativity....add a setting with activities....and a much more natural flow of conversation evolves.

eHarm conversation:

She: I love sushi.
He: oh, I love sushi, too!
In Real....he orders tempura, and can't even look at the sushi.

She: I love horseback riding
He: oh, I love horseback riding, too!
in Real....he doesn't watch where he steps at the stable, and can't mount a horse.

She: I love to go hiking!
He: oh, I love to go hiking, too!
in Real....his fat azz is plastered on a rock, panting and heaving, only one quarter of a mile up the mountain.

For those who think that there is any kind of revealing RL info being tossed about on those dating sites....think again.

Well, there are a few other reasons that could make using voice impractical or impossible, but that's not really the point I was trying to make. For whatever reasons, and however self-exclusionary it is, there is a divide where there didn't used to be.

This.

And that's one of the problems with voice. Although this is a gross generalization that I certainly wouldn't extend to everyone who uses voice, one of the problems with it is that it is enormously exclusionary; those in voice often tend to ignore text chat even when it is directed to them; when they DO address text in voice, they often refer to you in the third person to others in voice, as though you weren't there at all ("Oh, Scylla wants to know the name of that place . . .". And, finally, they just don't "get" why others don't like to use it.

Again, I'll refer to the experience at Open Latte: the "divide" spinster speaks of really did very nearly single-handedly destroy that place. I am by no means the only one who thought so: there's even a YouTube video on the subject.

QFT

Smify, there are a TON of reasons why people don't like to use voice. I don't like it precisely because I am uncomfortable with the way it really elides the RL/SL experience, and destroys the illusion of the "simulation." To me, voice really is the slippery slope towards Facebook.

I might also add that women in particular tend (I think) to find the voice thing oppressive: it becomes, frequently, a kind of "test" ("So, PROVE that you are really a woman." I REALLY hate THAT particular use of voice . . .

I don't see how using voice could be impractical or impossible for most people. They just don't want to, for whatever reason, in most cases. I just see it as a cool new feature people can use or not. I don't see it as creating some divide. Did everybody get up in arms when the telephone was invented, because some people preferred telegraphs? (Or did the telephone owners start rejecting telegrams? )

I truly don't get the all the controversy of using voice or not in SL. It's a personal choice each person makes...as it should be. I mostly use voice...I find it easier to communicate that way and if I am busy doing something then I can communicate and get work done at the same time.

I always ask if a person uses voice and if they don't..I then ask if it's okay that I talk while they type. If they don't have voice on then I just type. I don't judge anyone one way or the other..it is a personal choice.

Most of my friends voice and I admit (for myself) it makes SL a lot simpler. I didn't think I was going to like voice when I first heard it was coming to SL...but I adapted quicky and now love it.

Either you do or you don't...to me it's that simple.

Smif, I'm not sure how to prove this to you, other than by means of experience. Go to a place where voice predominates: the one that has been more or less taken over by the "voice" crowd from Latte is still, I think, The Cove at Junkyard Blues South. Disable voice, or at least unplug your microphone. See how far you get "mixing" with the people there.

The divide exists, and it is (frankly) an INDEX of the degree to which it exists that you are apparently utterly unaware of it.

I have no argument with this. But saying that people are excluded from something when they are excluding themselves is what I have an argument against.



I understand your point but don't see it that way. I like to know what people sound like in real life. SL isn't a "similation" exactly for me in the first place.



I know plenty of girls who like to talk on voice and who are not oppressed by it at all.



Well if you were the target of sociopaths pretending to be the opposite gender so they can mindbleep you better, you might see the value in the gender test also (however, as I understand it, it's pretty simple these days to get a decent voice changer, so I wouldn't put too much stock in that anyway). But at any rate, RL girls who are interested in RL friendship, etc, tend to want to chat on voice in my experience, so it really isn't an issue.

That's how the places have evolved, it's an issue of choice. There are plenty of places where text is predominant, those who joined SL after voice was introduced and find voice far more intuitive and comfortable will not be at home in those places.

I prefer text, I'll use voice. I'm happy that I have the choice. I would not like SL to be exclusively voice as that excludes those who have speech and hearing difficulties but by the same token there are those who prefer voice and they shouldn't feel bad for making that choice.

When in Rome comes to mind here.



I'll agree that a divide exists, if you will agree that barring any physical incapability it is a self-created divide and therefore completely subjective.

We are voluntarily excluding ourselves from joining in on voice. YOU (a royal "you," not "you" personally) are taking it a step further, and excluding US from participation in the conversation, and indeed, ultimately, in the community. It's no different from freezing someone out of a conversation because you don't like child avs, or furries, or whatever.


Of course. So do I. But if you were to poll the women in this forum, you'd see that the majority of them know EXACTLY what I am talking about.


And THIS is precisely my point: the voice/no voice divide is exactly analogous to the divide that will be created between those who treat SL as an online dating application, and those who are primarily interested in the other things it has to offer (which DOES include, btw, the sociability thing).

And btw, the voice changer things can be EXTREMELY effective, as I discovered very much to my cost some while ago. But that's another and very complicated story . . .

I wouldn't want people to feel bad for making that choice either. I have no problems with others who use voice, so long as they DON'T exclude on that basis. Many don't. Far too many, unfortunately, do.

I don't think that it's the technology that's the problem. I think it is the culture that has sprung up around voice.

Of course you must be referring to experiences you have had, but I've talked in small groups (I do not frequent these large gathering places you refer to, voice or not) of friends when some are texting and some are voicing and nobody has had their feelings injured to my knowledge.



So in other words, a completely subjective divide. Carry on



I'm afraid to ask!

Ugh. Again, a HUGE generalization here, but I have a feeling that this is a gender thing.

Absolutely there are lots of women who like using voice. But, on the whole, I think going to voice introduces a level of intimacy that many women (including myself) are not comfortable with, except where greater intimacy is really wanted (as in a relationship, for instance).

Suggesting that we are "excluding ourselves" from conversations because we are uncomfortable with introducing that level of intimacy into casual encounters is a bit like saying that if we don't wish to have sex, then it's our own fault that a relationship can't be sustained or allowed to grow.

The whole voice thing adds a kind of pressure that I think most women are all too familiar with in RL.

Sure, I've been in such situations before too. Some people who use voice are VERY good about not excluding. A great many are not. And yes, it is almost certainly a more exaggerated effect in large groups, precisely because those in voice have plenty of others in voice to talk to, and can afford to ignore those who are not.


How is this "completely subjective"? It's about two very well documented ways of viewing the function of SL, two different "cultures" if you will.


Good thing, cause I ain't telling.

How is using voice more intimate than talking on the phone? I don't blush every time a sales rep calls me.



Wow, I don't even know where to begin with this one, Scylla. Are you purposefully trying to confuse me FTW I am not suggesting anyone voice casual strangers, but hey, some people do and have fun. I prefer to talk to people in my little circle of friends (or alone with my girl). And hey, are you talking about sustaining or growing a romantic relationship without sex? I think I expressed my (pessimistic) thoughts on that in another thread.



You gonna have to enlighten me on that one.

You don't see it as creating a divide because you are happy to use it. Here's a couple of reasons why it may be impractical or impossible for somebody to use voice ...

Somebody who does not have a quiet, private place to log in from.

Somebody who doesn't have a sound card. This may sound improbable but I used to log in from work (with permission) on a computer that was marvellous, graphics-wise, but had no sound.

Somebody who is on the Aspergers/autism spectrum and finds communicating by voice difficult and threatening.

These are just a couple of reasons off the top of my head. I'm sure that others could give you more.

Probably most who don't use voice just don't want to, you are right on this point. Here are my personal reasons ...

Lack of privacy. I live in a busy household.

Extreme dislike of wearing headphones. They make me feel panicky, don't know why. Actually this could be another "impractical" thing for those who are keeping half an eye on young kids or elderly relatives.

General telephonophobia - If I can communicate via letter or email I will always choose this over a phone call.

I am 10x more articulate through the written word than I am speaking.

I generally find others more polite when communicating via text.

Last, but not least, spin is significantly posher than her RL self and part of my enjoyment of SL is in being her. That's the only (slightly) dishonest/RP reason I have for preferring text.

I'd love to see voice as just another cool feature that people could use or not, but sadly, there are people who will see such reasons as excuses. Also, sadly, as Scylla indicates, there are communities which have been torn in two by the introduction of voice.

I think that if you feel as though everyone in SL in voice at this moment is having an intimate conversation going.....you are making a huge generalization, yourself.....especially saying that women feel pressure for intimacy from it.

You're also limiting your own experience. You're a very articulate person, and I can't imagine that you would not benefit from having deeper discussions, and discussions where you do not have to guess about what the intent of the typing was coming from.

You and I could clear up a world of forum miscommunications in 15 minutes of voice that would never be cleared up in writing.

You would really benefit on a number of levels....by plugging into it....and doing so does not imply that type of "intimacy" every single time. People just want to communicate more effectively. That's all.

How is that a problem exactly? People ignore texts too. The same thing happens in large clubs when there is no voice. If we are talking about very specific incidences this whole convo is becoming pointless



Naw. I refuse to be sorted into either of your imaginary cultures

OK those are all good reasons not to use voice, at least at particular moments.



I am the same way, for the record. But I still like to use voice sometimes.



A couple hang-out spots were mentioned. I guess I just don't see the grand gesture of division there. I believe the places where people don't normally voice to greatly outnumber the places where they do.