ok. The end is nigh

I don't know if it's allowed to mention other virtual worlds here, but try googling um ... "fun flirt 3d virtual world" and click on the second link. It's a virtual world that caters to dating, flirting and such in a 3d environment. There are even people who have had strictly online relationships via chat rooms. While I don't understand the reasoning, I can appreciate that this creates potential business.

Hi Klunitz

It might do, but I think SL will have to play the SL/RL thing sensitively if they want a decent take up.

For instance RL details would have to be optional. Sorry if stating the obvious, I didn't look at the survey.

I'd be interested to know how it all goes though. A year or so ago (in one of my incarnations) I did investigate the dating business in SL and couldn't actually see that anyone made any money.

Maybe back then the population density was higher and meeting people was easier. I've noticed recently that SL seems to be a pretty big and lonely place.

I don't think that the majority of those people using the dating sites are looking for a cybersex buddy. I think they truly want to meet someone they get along with....and cybersex is not on their mind at all.

I'll risk the Eeeews and Ickies.....and give an example.

When I first started SL....I was using misMatch. In my mind, the two sites SL and misMatch were not performing the same functions at all for me....SL was for something entirely different.....not dating.

But I was corresponding with someone on the dating site who was in a nearby state, and I described SL to him. We decided to meet in SL. We had dinner and dancing, and had some conversations together, that kind of sped up the process, as opposed to email only.

During the course of about a week....you can get to know someone's persona.....sort of. On SL, you can get a better handle on it than email alone....because you are involved in activities.....and I'm not talking sex!

So during a week or two of communication in a simulated dating atmosphere....you can get a wee bit of an inkling on what their tendencies and habits and idiosyncrasies are. In this case it turned out to be a clingy type....with insecurities and jealousies....and a wee bit of neurosis thrown in.....and you've captured all that in a simulated atmosphere....still basically anonymous, without giving out too much RL info....and you discovered it without meeting in RL....where there is much more threat of a major fiasco and security risk.

The only tool offered on the dating web sites is instant message and email....you can add phone or skype....but they are still missing the entire dating simulation that you can pull of somewhat in SL. You can pull it off just enough to make a better decision before meeting in real. Not saying it is Fail Proof at all. Just saying that it will cancel out some drama right away....before messing up in RL. Or best case scenario.....it will enhance someone's "getting to know you" experience with advanced tools beyond email and instant message.

Yes, that probably was rude of me, but after spending the last 6+ months being called a pornographer (amongst other things) by elements of the current, intolerant SL community and of course effectively banished from the mainstream of SL, I'm certainly not in the mood to be pandering to those out there whose sensibilities are so precious that they don't even bother to read what I wrote - they just jump to a conclusion and come over all dramah. (am I looking at you when I type this? well, I might be)

I don't think they're worthless and certainly never said they were worthless - just shallow. If you think shallow is an insult that's your choice. They're not actually my customer base demographic either. My customer base comprises of imaginative, technically adept, long term residents who are more accustomed to creative text based interactions rather than click a button to get a preprogrammed response. i.e no xcite, sensations etc. or at least they don't use my items for that as I don't really sell those kinds of things.

So, some of those who come in will discover that they have more layered and complex interests than the a/s/l and will go on to become as engaged in this world as we are and a lot will do exactly as a lot do now and just treat it as a glorified chat room. Either way yet again SL is going to change and hopefully as a bonus some of the money they bring in will come my way so I can pay my expenses inworld.

That is assuming I'm still in business when these hordes finally arrive. The way things are going with the current situation with adult content it's unlikely. So in the end it may not matter to me.

and I've got to say that "Them dirty, unimaginative folks do like their kink.." and the rest of your statements made my eyes widen. There is no us vs them/creators vs consumers/x vs y, except perhaps in your imagination. You do have some strange perceptions there, perhaps you should examine your biases sometime.

This ^^ The ToS has always emphasized protection of private info, so this is a bit worrisome.

What came to my mind immediately when I read the OP was perhaps SL sees the dating services begun by SL residents (I am familiar with one but I read of yet another in a different thread, so that's at least two) and wants to get in on the action.

And if LL does so, I would be willing to bet it will involve paying for this service in some way. Oooooo....light bulb moment: perhaps making it the extra "perk" to go premium.

LL would be a LOT better served to do something like make the first 1024 sqm of mainland tier free for premiums, imo.

My understanding of the OP is that it's the former. I am guessing that it would be voluntary, otherwise it makes no sense for people to be able to verify, buy adult land and set up business on the strength of PIOF only - they'd have pushed everybody towards Aristotle.

Even if it's voluntary, it will change the culture, just as voice has. Some people will tell you that "everybody uses voice" and others, that "nobody uses voice", which points to there being two parallel cultures with little overlap. I foresee the same thing happening with RL data tools. Oh, and then there's the people that will tell you that anybody who won't use voice has something to hide. An SL where to not share RL info is to be looked on with suspicion is not a place I want to be.

Oh well, I imagine our buying patterns will be much more valuable to marketing researchers once they can be linked with RL demographic data.

Ahhhh, ok. This explains the totally naked male av that appeared next to me in Caledon...Caledon!!!! of all places yesterday with his free prim bit in all its revolting glory and began hitting on me in French (with a translator).

I've only ever had that happen to me once in my entire 2 1/2 years in SL (the naked male av with bad bit part). If LL wants to attract the Facebook and MySpace gang...yep, now it makes sense.

Another bad joke by LL. Somehow they're thinking we are *incompetent* in anything. Since new they're telling us via e-mails what is quality fashion and what not and where to buy it, a new blog entry offers community partnerships with LL along criterias

- (the most funny one is ever this: "good standing with LL" but they never come to the idea to think about if we customers are finding that LL has *a good standing* with us... - by the way: they havn't since they're failing at any point of customer relations),

- they're thinking they would have to explain what is adult and what not, they're telling us how to do our business on xstreet and even how to hold their feets into the fire in blogs and forums, additional: which time wasting so called social network tools we have to use by yelling at some of their own blog comments "follow me on twitter!" - and now they want to manage dating for 18+ people from all over the world...

*This will not end well* to constantly try to tell their custumers by subtile ways of spam-"communication" that their customers are stupid, incompetent and not able to manage anything while taking extraordinaire high tier and other fees while doing less and less to improve the technical aspects of the platform.

Time to build fitting umbrellas, because yes: the sky is falling.

It's not just your remarks that have led me to the conclusion of "us vs. them". Unfortunately, there is a "caste", if you will, when regarding those who create and those who don't. It is what it is. While I may not agree with it, I also don't have any emotional investment in it. So, I apologize, but I hardly find what I typed as anything more than observations, and was definitely not meant to be taken as drama.

If you don't think that shallow is an insult, then why is it that you use that term when referring to those you don't want to talk to? That was no assumption on my part.

While you feel that your customer base is comprised of mainly those of high brow stature, I doubt that's the case. Those looking for kink will find kink. If you offer something that allows immersion, then all types of people are potential customers. While others have called you a pornographer and other things you find offensive, please keep in mind that I have not. I don't see anything wrong in the sexual side of SL, I'm just not a part of it.

I have no problem with what you do, how you do it. But you are a reflection of your work, and of your business. I was just trying to point that out to you.

Hi Mickey,

Although I'm not really one of those that believe in the mystical power of SL to reveal another person's soul, I totally agree that some people feel more comfortable "meeting" in SL and that it can be a useful aid in building a relationship.

I think my question was more to do with the ultimate aim though.

In what I call the "RL" dating game, using SL as an adjunct to other modes of communications doesn't remove the concensus between the two parties that an RL relationship is the ultimate goal.

Whereas in the "SL" dating game, an SL relationship is, for the most part, the ultimate goal. It may be supported by webcam and voice and email, but essentially both parties understand that this is all there is.

For one thing I'm guessing that the existence of an unknowing wife and children in RL might have put an end to the "RL" dating game, whereas in the "SL" game (given the demographic of your average SL citizen), they're almost expected and accepted.

One requires an increasing level of RL disclosure, the other requires a tacit understanding and acceptance of at least a certain misdirection.

Or am I just really cynical..?

This.

Yes, it will change the culture, and the analogy with voice is a good one. I watched the whole "voice" issue help tear apart one of the most popular social spots in SL, Open Latte; what is left of the old Latte crowd has now split irremediably into two essentially isolated camps along just those lines. Watch for the tension that already exists between the Facebookers and the immersionists to grow even stronger as the latter resist and reject the new RL info options.

As I noted in an earlier post, this is going to have a profound impact even if LL handles the RL info thing with some sensitivity, for the simple reason that a move towards a RL dating service implicitly changes the entire orientation and underlying philosophy of SL.

I don't think that this is going to get rid of the immersionists. But it will fragment an already divided SL community even more profoundly than is now the case.

Well, since I've mixed both concepts....I'm VERY cynical.

I think that if there were not a complete separation for both concepts.....it would be a huge Fail. Even the name....Second Life....would be huge fail for those who wanted to use it as a real life dating simulation.

There shouldn't be a problem with using the same tools....same creations....same format....but a HUGE problem with combining both "lifestyles" and two entirely different kinds of expectations.

As far as RL disclosure....one really shouldn't give any more RL details on an Internet Dating site....than they would on SL. Huge Mistake. You can be as anonymous on one of those sites....and SHOULD BE....as you are in SL.

I'm not sure that's quite right. Lots of people are more than happy not to share RL info because they don't want to know that the other person is significantly older or less attractive than their avatar, or that they are not really a furry or centaur or don't really have cat ears and a tail or whatever, even that they are not the same sex as their avatar. All of that's just RP and it doesn't help the suspension of disbelief to be told the RL facts.

Unknowing wives, husbands, children in the background i.e. third parties who could get hurt ... that's something different, and I don't see any widespread acceptance of that as an ok thing to do (or perhaps it's just me ).

I agree with your wider point though, that there is not a general expectation of SL relationships carrying over into RL.

Hi Spinster,

Just to say first that I agreed with your previous post. It was what I was trying to say, but you said it better!

I guess I'm just much more cynical than you, or maybe I just mix with the wrong people.

I think though that there is a whole, complex web of self-delusion which goes on in SL, particularly in matters of the heart.

If nothing else, you just need to look at the first page of these boards to see references to a much partnered guy who admits to being married in RL.

Either way I much prefer your view of things, so I will try to be less cynical about people's motives.. I really will..

It's not just you, spinster. I agree wholeheartedly!!

Unless his RL wife knows, I think that speaks to character.

I realize this will probably bring a hail of "you're being judgmental" raining on my head, but this is simply MY opinion. I ended a partnership for this very reason.

I guess it speaks to character and what people are prepared to believe.

It often seems to me that the old saw

"my wife doesn't understand me"

has been replaced by

"my wife totally understands me and supports my right to explore the aspects of my sexuality which she cannot fulfill"

This. (but if we are talking about who I think we are talking about, I have always assumed that his RL wife is FULLY aware and happy to turn a blind eye, for the sake of some peace and quiet and not having him under her feet).

There was an office hour a long, long time back (I tried looking in my chat log but didn't find it so I guess it's from before March 200 that had the topic of what features could be added to SL to help make it more appealing to people interested in RL social networking (ie one suggestion was to - optionally - let someone find your avie when searching for your email addie).

If in 18+ months since then they've only just gotten around to making a survey then it's probably not something we have to worry about in our lifetime .

---

On-topic: for a primarily social environment SL is rather lacking in ways to actually let you meet other people who share interests beyond happening to be on a parcel at the same time though.

If the "interests" tab was overhauled and specifically searchable to allow things like searching for someone interested in "meeting" and "live music" then I don't think that would be such a bad thing to have.

And those interested in RL specifically could simply have that listed as an "interest" (or specifically look for other people interested in it).

I certainly agree with this. But, in practice, there is an awful lot of denial going on in SL. I know a great many married people, often with children, who are deeply in SL relationships -- sometimes to the point of meeting in RL.

Unfortunately, the whole fantasy aspect of SL actually encourages this: it's not "really" cheating, after all, is it?

My bet is that Mitch saw another Media Lab demo of that freak-show avatar-with-webcam-talking-face thing designed to make small children cry, and decided it was the next big thing for internet courting.

Ack!

Drop me a notecard inworld with details (i.e. who it was); this is easily dealt with.

And no, I won't solve this by buying him a better prim bit... grin

This of course goes back to the myriad 'Is it Cheating' threads. I struggle with this issue myself, all the time, in my SL relationships, and things I know about different people. Not for me, as I don't do the relationship thing in SL, but knowing full well others do, married, kids, etc. One person told me he's 'exploring another side of himself'. I don't have any other sides so is nearly impossible for me to understand this. On the other hand, I have no problem with people being all kinds of things in SL, including other species and/or genders. It's just the relationship thing. It doesn't 'feel' right to me, so I don't do it. And I struggle to accept it in others, as SL is supposed to be fully accepting of everything and anything; nobody is holding a gun to my personal pixel head to participate, so do I really even have a right to an opinion? It's their choice not mine, and I can't judge someone else's choices. (specially til I walk a mile in their shoes, on their personal journey) Is a puzzle....

I actually know a fair number of people who have moved off of SL to Facebook. I think there may be some kind of migration issue that LL knows about and is trying to deal with here. As usual, they'll cock it up, miss the point, piss people off, fail to address the real problems, make things worse -- all in the name of some Asian guy called Tao who runs a Pho shop in partnership with a delusional spymaster named M.

I have been saying that the strength of second life is cheap simulation. I hadn't thought of it before, but cheap simulated *dates* would work just as well as cheap simulated building walkthroughs for architects.

You can dive right into the getting to know someone part without travel, makeup, sitting through an expensive movie theater show with expensive snacks, etc etc.

As far as implementing such a dating system, all they really need to do is add a few more fields in the 1st life tab and make it optional to be searchable. Those of us who dont want to be searched on can leave it blank, or not click the show in search checkbox.