Stop The Resize Scripts!!!

Regardless, the real problem is resize scripts used to allow people to sell products no-mod that would otherwise need to be mod, and for many people resize scripts are simply not good enough.

As an alternative for people who want them, fine, but clothes simply need to be mod. There are more avatar shapes than are thought of in your philosophy.

Hey no apologies from me. As I said, I more then welcome this change to script limits and I look forward to the day soon when there are going to be texture limits in some form also. As far as disabilities go, I myself am fighting to stay out a a wheelchair. So go get high and mighty with someone else.

But herein lies the difference....................................... It is one thing to demand wheelchair access to a building. It is quite another to demand that 9 out of ten entrances to a building are for wheelchair access only and all others must wade through a 100 meters of mud to gain entrance. The indiscriminate waste of sim resources affects everybody in the sim.

So who's taking bets on when LL will change SL's slogan to "Your World. Your Imagination. Our Limits."

I specificly left certain external programs out of my descript, and I agree that creating no mod can increase the desire to find and use them. No-mod is only a protection of certain types of theft, namely ones that LL has provided the tools for.

is it a perfect solution? no. even an option to lock the contents of objects would be a better solution. Do I advocate for schemes that attempt to limit casual piracy? no, it's kind of pointless in my book. unfortunately these are all the tools we have until we see a major paradigm overhaul, and I can sympathize with creators that don't want to see their creations being resold out from under them. In the real world this can be a lot easier to spot, verify, and deal with... in SL not so much.

it puts content creators in a bad position of either doing what they can to protect themselves at the risk of degraded user functionality and bad feelings from legetimate users or watching as their profits vanish because 50 other people decided to reselll stolen copies of their product through anonymous alts. it's pretty much lose/lose.

I may be too tired to make a good suggestion, but would it be possible to have a resizable rezzer version of the object, which when you get it the size you want, gives you a no-mod instance of the object at the current, correct size?

Pfft. The "so" here is what do you expect from selling things in SL? Let's say I want to make money. Then the "so" will be to do whatever it is that maximizes the amount of $L I can make. If that means I make more by selling things as no mod/copy, then so be it. If it means I make more selling things as mod/copy/no xfer, then so be it. If I just want to make things for fun, then WTH, make them full perms.

Illegal means aside, it does increase the likelihood of some of us making the damned thing ourselves from scratch; when we're done, we might even start selling a better product at a lower price--and with the desired permissions. (In which case I guess everybody wins--except the seller of the no-mod item that so frustrated us that we had to make our own.)
Interesting. I'm assuming the idea is that purchase would happen after the resizing takes place. (If not--if it's just a rezzer that resizes the purchaser's own object--it seems a slight variant of removable resize scripts.)

Might be a bit tricky with attachments, because the product couldn't actually be attached to anyone but the owner, so the prospective buyer would have to mount a fixed pose stand, then use the rezzer's scripts to resize *and reposition* the product to fit--and then reposition it again manually when they attach it after purchase. (Also, the seller's parcel would have to retain enough unused prims for the product to rez, and eventually enough spare script capacity).

If you "just" want to make things for money, then you probably shouldn't be in SL. There isn't enough money in it.

So I don't believe, for one minute, no matter how many people claim to be disinterested capitalists using SL purely as a platform to make a living, that there's any significant number of honest-to-Rand pure profit-seekers in SL. And the contrary position, that if you want to make things for fun you should make them full perm, is also silly. It's never going to be "just" this or "just" that.

Actually in the real world it's even harder to spot, verify, and deal with people copying your work and underselling you... unless you're selling a product that has to be sold online, or are a multinational corporation, people could be ripping you off in 99% of the planet and you'd never know about it.

And that's not where the theft happens, because even if someone copies the prims through scripts they'll still have to copy textures and other assets with a bot or some other external tool, so why would they bother copying the plywood one way and copying the rest another?
If what they were doing was effective, that would probably be an accurate description. But since what they're doing is almost completely ineffective, it's not. You might as well argue for cupping and leeching as a cold cure... what they're doing doesn't solve the problem, in fact it makes it worse.

Well again so what?? Are you arguing just for the sake of arguing or are you trying to make a point? If the latter, then puh-lease tell me what that point is. I simply said "suppose I want to make money" and you kind of treated that as if it was a disease.

As I 'splained Loocee, some of my items have perms set one way, some another. It depends on price, use, maximizing profits or sales, and to an extent how I felt when I made it. Do I make things in SL solely for profit?? Of course not. I make them mostly because it's fun or a challenge. The $L I get helps pay for my uploads, my own shopping addiction and it's a form of validation.

Others may have completely different motives for how/why they sell what they sell. Your seeming blanket endorsement of "just make everything copy/mod/no xfer" was what I took issue with.

In instances as you mention above I would agree that the items should be modifiable, again there should be an OPTION for someone to use a resize script if they have some sort of need for it however. But perhaps as a script supplied to the purchaser when they purchase say a suit of armor or other prim heavy clothing items (armors and other avatar types and prim/flexi hairs are actually good uses for this type of script, where resizing it in any other fashion may be time prohibitive or extremely difficult for a user of your items regardless of ability to resize prims or lack thereof).



I would like to point out that before you decide to call someone high and mighty ever again:

Look at your posts and place yourself in Solar's shoes, imagine you were disabled due to SIGHT. Yet when asked to provide an apology for the rudeness that was perceived from it you refuse, showing your true color.

Also keep in mind that your issuing a statement about your fight to stay out of a wheelchair still does not give you an excuse to be rude nor is it the same issue that Solar faces, however, I will not pass judgment on if it affects your ability to resize items attached to your avatar as I haven't got the facts on that in your case. Regardless it has given me the feeling and the perception that you use this as justification of your rude behavior, something I once heard a doctor describe as "poor me syndrome". I myself am fighting that same fate but I don't use it as an excuse and I treat it as a testament to my will to better myself.

As far as making a demand, I have not demanded a thing, only asked you to apologize for rudeness perceived.

It is, however, the responsibility of content creators to have their audience in mind, some of these people will have difficulty with resizing items. The question is do you want to exclude that portion of your possible user base, if so by all means it is your right. No demands will be made from me to provide the same type of allowances that are made in RL to those with disabilities who use SL this is simply an issue of convenience to those who might be there to buy your products should you think of them or provide them the additional option. (Not to mention foresight on your part looks good on you as a creator and increases profits for those seeking them due to the word of mouth that may be generated. If you think about it this makes perfect sense.)

So next time try deciding if you will be the pot or the kettle, not that it seems to matter to you. In this case Jesse you have proven that you are not worthy of my time beyond this point. So with this said, and the respect for your ability or otherwise lost before they are gained, I shall bow out of this discussion with my views on the issue already having been posted.

Good luck to you all and try playing nice.

I think you're mixing up a number of separate points.

1. I haven't made a 'blanket endorsement of "just make everything copy/mod/no xfer"'. Mod, yes, but I haven't said anything about other permissions.

2. I've explained elsewhere why making stuff no-mod doesn't prevent people cloning them, and why it can even encourage people to clone stuff.

3. I was responding here to your apparent assertion that the only motivation for how you sell a product should be how you can maximize profits from it.

But even then... I currently have products that have all kinds of permissions... including full perm, copiable, transferrable, even a couple of no-mod products. One of which is a dollarbie, the other is intended to encourage people to figure out how to clone it (and so far as I can recall, nobody's actually bought it). Modifiable products sell better. How does crippling your customers help you maximize profits... when it reduces sales and gives them an incentive to go into competition with you?

some people do quite well, I have at least 2 friends that are not in the land business that make a living and pay rent just from SL. one makes twice what I do in a year.


not exactly true, since in real life there is a money trail that leads back to a real person. and if your market is only Europe, or US (as a for instance) then piracy in mumbai or honk kong isn't likely to affect your bottom line. if they directly compete against you (as often happens in SL) then they are trackable. never mind that solid goods have at least SOME production costs in the real world... in SL it's all free if you already have net access


actually it's quite possible to do the entire thing minus the scripts just within the SL viewer. worse until just a few months ago you could rip any texture directly using the standard viewer (thankfully, hole plugged). it's certainly not analogous to using leaches, but maybe using a warm compress to take care of clogged sinuses. it only takes care of one symptom, the rest of the disease has no cure. and as Qie pointed out, it also encourages the simplest form of action, making it yourself.

(this is why i'm a scripter, it's much easier to copy behavior than try to find a way to get the actual script, and only a scripter with equivalent experience can make it run as well or as effeciently)

All you can clone with a script is the plywood. You can't clone animations or any other assets in the contents, you can't clone Linden wearables, and you can't even get texture UUIDs. All you can do is get the prim parameters.

Making the product no-mod doesn't cure the disease, and in many cases it makes the symptoms worse.

As far as "a money trail that leads back to a real person" goes: Linden Labs can track L$ from person to person, so even if they're using an alt as a cutout LL can follow the money trail more easily than you would be able to in RL. They just don't happen to bother doing that. But then RL banks won't do that for you either, without a court order.

Let me replay this again. I gave you my comments. You selected my example. You said "So?" I explained. Then you tell me I'm mixing up a number of points and that you never commented on anything other than "Mod" perms. I think you clearly did since my example was mod/copy and you challenged me on it (while making a few other broad brush statements presented as fact which are really just your opinion about how things otter be).

And fwiw, ALL my prim items are mod OK.

Now I'm even more sure you like to argue for the sake of arguing.

Ah, sorry, I got you mixed up with someone else.

If you have a belt that's mod/copy, then I can copy it, and recolor it, and use it on 20 different outfits. That's the point of making it copyable, isn't it?

If you sell a belt that's trans/copy, I'd have to write a small, trivial script to get the same capability. Or I'd have to tint it when I changed outfits.

I've bought both mod/copy and mod/trans products. And I've modded them all.

SO it doesn't matter if it's copyable or transferable, if you sell it modifiable then people don't have to buy as many copies in different colors. On the other hand, more people will be willing to buy it in the first place. And pay more for it.

Of course. And I sell a few items that way.
You're saying you can mod (tint, retexture) a no mod item (prim or system clothing) you get from me just using an LSL script? Or is it something you do to the item in your cache?
Well you should be able to, they are, after all mod.
Agreed, that was my point in the first place. I sell a mod/copy undie set that you can tint and save to your heart's desire. The underlying lace texture is designed so the tinting will still preserve the details. And it is a bit more expensive than an equivalent fixed color outfit. But, some items I really don't want people modding because whatever they do to it would wreck it. (For example, tinting a black or red dress would likely kill any highlighting and details without making the dress a "different" color.)

If I make something no mod, I'll almost always make it copy OK. And again, ALL my prim stuff is mod OK. If it's not also copy OK, I include 2 or 3 versions of the prim parts so you can mix & match. I've never had anyone complain about my choices in perms on stuff they get from me. Then again, my complete outfits are typically $75L or less.

I understand that bots & stuff can rip your stuff and do whatever they want. There used to be an avatar who would show up now & then at a few clubs. She would literally clone people while they danced. At first, the cloning was limited to system items -- prims wouldn't work. After awhile, she got it to the point where she could clone everything including hair. I once had 5 clones of me dancing along side me. I'm drawing a blank on the name of the avatar that could do this.

No, a mod/no-copy item.
By "fixed color" you mean "no mod"? I'm sure it is! If I'm looking at a L$1 dollarbie, I'll often pass it up if it's no-mod.
I've tinted dark colored clothing to change the highlight colors. I've got several dark trousers from Silent Sparrow that I've tinted to make them work better with shirts and jackets from other sets.

And, hey, they bought it, it's their responsibility if they "wreck" it.

Well, that's certainly different from other people! Most of them make no-mod stuff no-copy, and mod stuff no-trans, because they make it no-mod to keep people from reselling "damaged" goods in yard sales.

They wouldn't. They'd just *not buy*. I'll pass your L$75 waistcoat by and get a L$250 one from Silent Sparrow instead. And apply a green tint to a red waistcoat if that's what it takes to make it less saturated and match the shirt underneath.

don't need texture ID's... think outside the box, I'm sure you'll see it, script access is all you need. .I won't describe it, because I'm not in the habit of providing step by step instructions for theft.

it cures A symptom, which is all we have. unfortunately that's about like applying anti-itch powder to prevent kidney failure... you're still screwed but at least you feet don't itch.


alts don't need to be connected to real people, in the real world money trails usually are, whether it be rental space for sales, who the payments go to, etc... much of which can often be discovered just by walking to the place and looking up public records.

Since the last change to llGetPrimitiveParams? I don't think so.
It doesn't even alleviate the symptom. For most patients, it makes the symptom worse.
You're missing the point here, I'm not talking about tracing alts, I'm talking about tracing the L$. The profit has to be transferred to the real world somehow, and Linden Labs has the technology to trace it in their anti-fraud code.

Interesting philosophies. They don't match my personal experience but who knows?? I'd say most people look at price and design first. Perms are very secondary unless you are an experienced SL'er. Heck guys don't even buy that much stuff at all so I stopped making menswear completely long before I slowed down making new clothing in general. I see virtually no difference in sales of my items based on their perms.

Again, I think it all depends on what I (as a seller) think most buyers are realistically going to do with an item. Personally, when I buy, I don't really care that much if an outfit's system parts are no mod as long as they look good. But the prims have to be mod for me.

I know SIMONE stopped doing outfits with xfer completely.

For sure if I make something mod/copy it's not gonna be mod/copy/xfer. Plus there's so much good stuff around for free that my interest in making new things keeps getting lower and lower and lower.

A lot of guys have quit looking for menswear. Most outfits for guys seem to fall into one of these categories:

* Badly made business clothes.
* Well made pimp gear.
* Tee shirts and jeans.
* Cosplay outfits.
* Military outfits.

Meanwhile, I'm looking for:

* Well made business outfits.
* Well made casual outfits.
* Well made Victorian gear (steampunk).
* Occasional cosplay stuff (anime).

It was about six months before I found a single outfit I really liked. And I couldn't wear it because it was no mod. A year before I found Silent Sparrow. I tend to push Silent Sparrow because Hya's one of the few designers who make any clothes for guys with class and panache.
If I can't adjust the sleeve and leg lengths I can't wear them. Period. They have to be able to fit around my paws.
Where did I suggest that?

yeah, even now, I'm sure you're already aware of it, it just hasn't clicked yet


presuming they aren't using the funds to pay other inworld content (like scripts to make their stolen stuff run), land fees or other legitimate purchase? it never has to leave SL to be useful, and an alt or 3 with legitimate businesses could just as easily launder said L$... and the original creator loses out 100% because not only do they not get that recovered cash as they could IRL, but the scammer is free to turn around and set up shop again within minutes.

A lto of guys can't be bothered. Good looking business stuff is very hard to do. I made one men's suit -- jacket, pants, shirt/tie. It just never looked right even though I worked on it more than any of my women's outfits. I gave it to a few friends who liked it but it just didn't seem good enough to sell.Picky picky. Adjusting sleeve lengths would be tough on a button-down shirt. The cuffs would normally be in a fixed location extended a bit beyond the wrist. How would you do this and finish off the cuff? When you adjust pants longer, they just flare more which looks silly on a men's suit. That's why some designers use prim pant bottoms. But if you're trying to do something like a pinstripe, check or other weave, the textures and lighting won't match. I was keeding.