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Stop The Resize Scripts!!!

Imnotgoing Sideways
Can't outlaw cute! =^-^=
Join date: 17 Nov 2007
Posts: 4,694
03-31-2009 18:28
From: Proxima Saenz
Hmm
If you think they are laggy you simply remove the script from your object and POOF, gone lag..

Come on folks
for every problem there is a simple solution.
Sadly it's as "simple" as never having the option to resize your item ever again once you do it. No-mod means no-mod and with that in place scripted resizing is the only option. (T_T)
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Ceka Cianci
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Join date: 31 Jul 2006
Posts: 4,489
03-31-2009 18:33
From: Proxima Saenz
Hmm
If you think they are laggy you simply remove the script from your object and POOF, gone lag..

Come on folks
for every problem there is a simple solution.

you haven't read the thread have you? hehehehe
just messing with you..it's been mentioned a few times already..


i think the thing is most people that are not familiar with the tools or are new wouldn't know what to do..and for clothes it's just a way to add no mod to prim clothes for protection..

i think it would end up turning away people that cannot mod their own clothes..
no mod prim clothes just does not make sense at all to me..
people will end up protecting themselves out of good customers over time i think..i know i won't waste my money on no mod..i'll just make my own anyways if it comes to this being a fad hehehehe
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LittleMe Jewell
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Join date: 8 Oct 2007
Posts: 11,319
03-31-2009 19:07
From: Proxima Saenz
Hmm
If you think they are laggy you simply remove the script from your object and POOF, gone lag..

Come on folks
for every problem there is a simple solution.
You cannot remove a script from a no-mod item unless you use the scripts' own self delete options - and then you'll never be able to change the item again.

While that solution might be "simple", it sure as heck isn't a good solution.
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Tarina Sewell
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Join date: 20 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,180
03-31-2009 23:14
From: Sassy Romano
(No General topic but this is starting to annoy me now.)

This is a disease spreading throughout content. It does not make it easier to size things and it does not stop things being copied but this isn't my complaint.

IT'S THE DAMN SCRIPTS AND THE LAG!

I've just bought a skirt that a) I don't like the fit of, can't sensibly modify to fit because repeatedly clicking the item, then "this prim", then +/- whatever is just insane but b) 246 prims with resize scripts!

So as a test, I sat on an object and pulled up the estate tools and this skirt has scripts that consume 0.5ms. Doesn't sound much but when I add in Damselfly hair, one of the other main culprits of the same scripts, that's another 0.5ms.

Yes the instructions say take them out when done but then I also have a hat which is resize scripted, but no copy. So I don't wish to take them out because then I can't change the hat ever again in future.

Now if anyone thinks these numbers are insignificant, I did some tests a few weeks ago and a "typically scripted avatar" with AO and a couple of other things was between 0.2 to 0.3ms. Add in Damselfly hair, some jewellery with channel 0 bling on/off listeners and I was easily over 1.2ms and have observed a couple at a dance place at nearly 5ms for just those two with scripted shoulder pets and all their other junk.

Take a look at the sim statistics in shift ctrl 1, Time (ms), Spare time and think again how this junk affects a sim with 0ms available.

Best bit is, these people come to a place and then bitch about lag.

*sighs


I dont use that script, i sell my stuff mod/copy. Also, if someone comes says omg this dont fit (cause it will happen) I help them, and make another for them if need be.... Im really not so busy I cant take the time to help someone who has just spent their L$ for something I have made.......
Love Hastings
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Join date: 21 Aug 2007
Posts: 4,094
03-31-2009 23:16
Sounds like there's a market for a better resize script.
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Sassy Romano
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Join date: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 619
03-31-2009 23:40
Just to provide parity again to this. I had a LOOONG chat with the creator (and I thank her for visiting the thread) that I mentioned yesterday and we discussed many things. Without going into the specifics of the chat, I feel the outcome was very positive and we're going to plan a session sometime to run through benchmarking some of the items.

As I see it, the issues are

1. that "no mod" is a false belief that an item can't be copied - it can, trivially.
2. that scripted resize is useful for newbies. Fine but that's not a reason to not let us remove the scripts and besides, if the script doesn't resize it to the right shape, it's still no help.
3. hundreds of these resize scripts lag sims and affect teleports (but without estate tools, developers nor wearers know to what extent)

The biggest problem is one of education.

I see Shylah Honey from Damselfly hasn't made an appearance... come out come out Shylah...
Qie Niangao
Coin-operated
Join date: 24 May 2006
Posts: 7,138
04-01-2009 03:13
From: Void Singer
that script design is very old and outdated. the old reason to add scripts to every prim was because you can't read individual prim data from a cript in another prim... this is still true. HOWEVER, you can shut them all off via script AND use remote load in a server prim to reload all of them in a few seconds.
Void, unless you know stronger magic than I do, the only way to reload scripts in 246 prims "in a few seconds" is to have a hell of a lot of little server scripts pushing out all those scripts. Each call to llRemoteLoadScriptPin() sleeps the script 3.0 seconds.

Good point about the desperate lack of "llGetLinkPrimitiveParams()"--getting around that omission using just centralized scripts requires that (an abstraction of) the child prim data be retained in the central scripted prim.

About the "smallest prim" problem: yeah, most resize scripts "cheat" this, and most users are satisfied enough with the results. It is, however, a kludge to get around a creator's poorly executed prim assembly.
Tiffy Vella
Registered User
Join date: 3 Apr 2007
Posts: 379
04-01-2009 04:15
The best solution is for creators to provide copiable items whenever the resize scripts are used, and this is my practise. Then for you, the customer, to keep an unaltered master. Resize the copy to fit your size, then simply use the "delete" option in the menu. Voila---no more scripty badness.

And if you change your shape/size, whip out a new one and go again.
Sassy Romano
Registered User
Join date: 27 Feb 2008
Posts: 619
04-01-2009 06:17
From: Tiffy Vella
The best solution is for creators to provide copiable items whenever the resize scripts are used, and this is my practise. Then for you, the customer, to keep an unaltered master. Resize the copy to fit your size, then simply use the "delete" option in the menu. Voila---no more scripty badness.

And if you change your shape/size, whip out a new one and go again.

In an ideal world... except that *most* people don't bother taking the scripts out because they can't "see" the problem with leaving them in!

no modify is really little point and the scripts inhibit proper sizing.
Argent Stonecutter
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Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 20,263
04-01-2009 06:58
From: Tiffy Vella
The best solution is for creators to provide copiable items whenever the resize scripts are used, and this is my practise. Then for you, the customer, to keep an unaltered master. Resize the copy to fit your size, then simply use the "delete" option in the menu. Voila---no more scripty badness.

And if you change your shape/size, whip out a new one and go again.
So after you've edited the hair to fit, you make a slight change to your shape, and you have to start over from scratch editing your hair to fit again. That's not the best solution at all. The best solution is just to make everything modifiable.
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Tiffy Vella
Registered User
Join date: 3 Apr 2007
Posts: 379
04-01-2009 07:48
Sassy, I agree with you in that we do need to educate people about this. I do what I can, and will revisit my notecards to see how well they are worded.... Yes, some people are just lazy, and they will never change, but I am loath to limit what I do to suit that minority.

Argent--I feel your pain. It's no great joy however you do it if you want to change your shape often.
Talon Brown
Slacker Punk
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 352
04-01-2009 08:09
From: Tiffy Vella
Argent--I feel your pain. It's no great joy however you do it if you want to change your shape often.

Nah, what people actually do is go buy mod hair/attachments from someone else instead. Seems some creators are locked into thinking they can get away with this because their products are just too good/important/whatever not to buy. They are wrong and when scripting limits hit the grid they're going to see exactly how wrong they were.
Lindal Kidd
Dances With Noobs
Join date: 26 Jun 2007
Posts: 8,371
04-01-2009 09:24
From: Talon Brown
Nah, what people actually do is go buy mod hair/attachments from someone else instead. Seems some creators are locked into thinking they can get away with this because their products are just too good/important/whatever not to buy. They are wrong and when scripting limits hit the grid they're going to see exactly how wrong they were.


I hold no love for resize scripts. But LL is (surprise, surprise) once again fixing the wrong problem. The CAUSE of those laggy resizer scripts is IP theft. Strengthen IP protection and most builders will gladly get rid of those awkward scripts.

That's what LL should be doing, not crippling everyone's abilities.
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Lindal Kidd
Nimue Jewell
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Join date: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1,745
04-01-2009 09:30
From: Lindal Kidd
I hold no love for resize scripts. But LL is (surprise, surprise) once again fixing the wrong problem. The CAUSE of those laggy resizer scripts is IP theft. Strengthen IP protection and most builders will gladly get rid of those awkward scripts.

That's what LL should be doing, not crippling everyone's abilities.


They are addressing a lot more than resize scripts with the proposed limits. I think protecting IP rights is a separate issue.
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Nimue Jewell
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Join date: 20 Mar 2007
Posts: 1,745
04-01-2009 09:42
As an aside, another problem with attachments that use resize scripts rather than being mod is that you can't link them to other items. Given the limited number of attachment points, this is a real drawback to having a no mod attachment. You can't, for example, link 2 necklaces, add a hair accessory, or wear multiple rings.
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Argent Stonecutter
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04-01-2009 10:31
From: Lindal Kidd
I hold no love for resize scripts. But LL is (surprise, surprise) once again fixing the wrong problem. The CAUSE of those laggy resizer scripts is IP theft. Strengthen IP protection and most builders will gladly get rid of those awkward scripts.
If Linden Labs strengthened the already annoying DRM in Second Life to the point where it was actually effective, they'd have to break SL so badly I'd have to find somewhere else to nibble toes.
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Lindal Kidd
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04-01-2009 10:46
From: Argent Stonecutter
If Linden Labs strengthened the already annoying DRM in Second Life to the point where it was actually effective, they'd have to break SL so badly I'd have to find somewhere else to nibble toes.


You're the software ferret, not me, so I can't argue. But it seems to this layperson that there must be SOMETHING that can be done. Go, code boffin! Gather up your clan and be Clever!
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Lindal Kidd
Argent Stonecutter
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04-01-2009 10:56
From: Lindal Kidd
You're the software ferret, not me, so I can't argue. But it seems to this layperson that there must be SOMETHING that can be done. Go, code boffin! Gather up your clan and be Clever!
The bottom line? Lots of smart people have tried.
From: Steve Jobs : The Rolling Stone Interview" in Rolling Stone (3 December 2003)
When we first went to talk to these record companies -- about eighteen months ago -- we said, "None of this technology that you're talking about's gonna work. We have Ph.D.s here who know the stuff cold, and we don't believe it's possible to protect digital content.
You can make it sufficiently inconvenient that casual copying is significantly reduced, but the serious violators won't be stopped by anything less than a completely locked down hardware client with self-destruct anti-tampering on the CPU and key ROMs and encrypted communication to the servers.
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Lindal Kidd
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04-01-2009 11:02
Then let's stop the casual thieves, at least.

They greatly outnumber the dedicated pros, anyway.
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Lindal Kidd
Love Hastings
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Join date: 21 Aug 2007
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04-01-2009 11:14
From: Lindal Kidd
Then let's stop the casual thieves, at least.

They greatly outnumber the dedicated pros, anyway.


/me thinks of Macrovision and non-redbook CDs and shudders
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Argent Stonecutter
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04-01-2009 11:18
From: Lindal Kidd
Then let's stop the casual thieves, at least.

They greatly outnumber the dedicated pros, anyway.

By "casual copying" I mean anything you can do without using special software. ANY special software. Mirror scripts, copybot, OGRE, testclient, SLICE, as soon as we're talking about things like that we're beyond the point of "casual copying" and into the area of "things that can't be stopped".

About the only thing I can think of that LL can do that would help would be to change the way things like textures and animations behave so that you can sell builders no-transfer assets they can APPLY TO transferrable assets without making them no-transfer.
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Lindal Kidd
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04-01-2009 11:25
Argent...what if they made all scripts, animations, and textures absolutely no copy/no trans in world? And then have the sellers of these items do so only out-world, on third party websites?

Grasping at straws here, I know.
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Lindal Kidd
Argent Stonecutter
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04-01-2009 11:46
From: Lindal Kidd
Argent...what if they made all scripts, animations, and textures absolutely no copy/no trans in world? And then have the sellers of these items do so only out-world, on third party websites?
If I wanted There.com or New Lively or ActiveWorlds I already know where to find them.

That's a perfect example of the kind of thing I meant by "If Linden Labs strengthened the already annoying DRM in Second Life to the point where it was actually effective, they'd have to break SL so badly I'd have to find somewhere else to nibble toes."

That wouldn't be enough, I don't think, since LL is willing to let people resell stolen content as it is, so they'd have no problem with people setting up a "Fences R Us" server somewhere. And yet it'd already be enough to completely destroy everything that makes Second Life cool.
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Lindal Kidd
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04-01-2009 13:31
Would it really break SL that badly? After all, these things are mostly manufactured out-world anyway (except you can script on a notecard, if you want). And not all that many people actually SELL scripts alone, or textures alone, in world...they are (mostly) sold already applied to objects.

Animations are often sold stand-alone, but they're actually created out-world.
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Lindal Kidd
Argent Stonecutter
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04-01-2009 13:42
From: Lindal Kidd
Would it really break SL that badly? After all, these things are mostly manufactured out-world anyway (except you can script on a notecard, if you want).
OK, I'm kind of confused. I thought you were talking about making transfer of EVERYTHING in SL have to take place outside the game.

So are you talking about buying textures or whatever outside SL and then uploading them?

I think that would increase unauthorized copying, since people are so used to trading pictures and files around over the Internet. Let's see if I can find teh second part of Steve Jobs's quote...

OK...
From: Steve Jobs
We don't believe it's possible to protect digital content ... What's new is this amazingly efficient distribution system for stolen property called the Internet — and no one's gonna shut down the Internet. And it only takes one stolen copy to be on the Internet. And the way we expressed it to them is: Pick one lock — open every door. It only takes one person to pick a lock. Worst case: Somebody just takes the analog outputs of their CD player and rerecords it — puts it on the Internet. You'll never stop that. So what you have to do is compete with it.


I'm talking more about something like this: making "no transfer" for textures only apply to the texture itself. If you apply a "no transfer" texture to an object, that doesn't stop the object from being transferrable. It doesn't effect the object at all.

Then you can sell your textures for builders "no transfer", and not have to worry about your customers going into competition with you.

Does that make sense?
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