Charging more for Copy/NoTrans over Trans/No Copy animations.

Actually they did....just privately

It's a shame that oldbies and noobs (that would be 2006 and up?) have stopped posting opinions based on what happened in this thread and others. I would like to see their opinions, and I think others would too.

I ran into something like this by visiting a store basically having its 'going out of business' sale. For the longest time; skins, gowns, shoes, accessories, and other items were going in the L$200 to L$500 range. Being someone who can't spend RL money on SL I can only spend my inworld earnings, which aren't very high. So, I'd look at the items and want them. But, I couldn't justify getting them with the prices listed. My loss and theirs, I figure. (>_<

So, now the sale... EVERYTHING is priced at L$50. I had no problem plowing through the place and dropping L$350 that night on a pile of items I've been wanting for ages. And, I almost wonder how many other people did the exact same thing. (^_^)

So...

A store full of items priced at L$500 = no sales from people like me and relatively $0 worth of income. (T_T)

At the same store with the same items priced at L$50 = L$350 worth of sales from me and other people like me and I'll probably still make a return trip after I find a source of more spending monies. (^_^)

Now, mo-cap animation makers have an advantage. You simply CAN'T go anywhere else to get their product. So, they're free to set the price where they like since there's essentially no competition. A business with no competition can basically survive on the backs of any customers willing to shell out for its product. The only real ways to deal with a business like that would be to make a regulating body over their practices or compete with it by offering a superior product with a reduced cost. Which is TOUGH in the mo-cap dance world. (>_<

I'm not being cynical at all. A cynic is one who is critical of the motives of others. I am justifying the motives of others to the cynics here. To me there is "value" to a copyable item and it is why I have no problem with the copyable animations being priced higher.

I appreciate that distinction between value and price. The price of something should reflect it's value. Price can never affect value, but value always does affect price.

And so my question stands... if there is no difference in value between a no copy and a copyable animation - then why not just take the no copy one and be happy that you got it at a lower price? The answer is simple - because a copyable one DOES have more value and thus it is justifiable to charge more.

Words DO mean things. And when I use a word I mean it. Tis you who are the cynic. And if you think price is the important thing and that price is the key factor to customer satisfaction, then shop at the very few places in SL that do offer copyable and no-copy animations at the same price. I'm sure you'll be very satisfied.

Yep. It is very true... I've seen lots of places overvalue their things and put a price on it that is too high - and it does end up killing them. There is also the converse danger of pricing your things too low which can cause a whole different set of problems - whether it is lowering the perceived quality of the item before it is even purchased, to oversaturating the market with it. (Take a look at all those L$10 things on Xstreet - they hit the top of the charts and fall off a few days later when the market is saturated with them. It creates a "limited lifetime" for your products).

Cost of production of MoCap animtations aside - there are other factors that go into the value of an animation.

Uniqueness is one of them. If you price it so low that everyone has it, then no one will want it anymore because everyone wants that cool new dance that no one has seen before. Each time someone makes a purchase of any item in SL, it has a small effect on that item's long term value. When a copyable animation is sold, the impact on its uniqueness is (or at least can be) infinitely greater and thus will shorten the amount of time it will sell at a rate where it is making a return on the investment.

You still didn't get it.

I'll try and anser your question Rygel - IMO, of course.

Not really - You have to consider the effects of the permissions.
Customer 1
I sell a pose ball mod/transfer (no copy). The customer has the option of buying it for someone else, a gift, or of re-selling it, or of giving it back to me and asking for a refund. Also, they don't have to bother putting it in a pose ball for themself - some customers just aren't interested in doing this.

Customer 2
I sell an animation file mod/copy (no transfer). The customer can make unlimitted copies and put them in ao's, chims, pose balls, whatever. They cannot give a copy to anyone else and cannot return it for a refund. They cannot re-sell a copy.

Both customers are likely to cause me the same amount of work - so pricing on the basis of those permissions doesn't make sense.

Customer 1 may come back and ask for a swap or a refund, Customer 2 may come back with questions about putting an animation in an ao, or whatever.

If anything, making it Modify, is likely to cause me more work and confustion, because if they change the name, I won't know which animation they are talking about.

of course
i would love for more 2003 avs to come out and say that their rez date has no impact on their view of the grid, their knowledge of the grid, the opinions they form, the relevance of historical experience, and their perception of a cultural divide.

knowing full well that there are many 2003 avs that hate my guts i would think the likelihood of one of these people stepping forward would be high, if for no other reason than to spite me.

im not sure which opinions you feel people have stopped sharing? on topic opinions regarding nocopy anis? or offtopic discussion regarding the irrelevance of rez date.

There's a huge difference between 2003 av's giving their opinion and 2003 avi's implying they are better than everyone else just because they arrived in 2003. This really isn't rocket science.

Just wanted to be clear that the tone taken in this thread and some others was not acceptable.

weird... 3 of me??
no comment... except that if you dish it out.. take it too.

I was more thinking of value.... essentially what the animator thinks the value of an animation is worth... and the value of differing permissions. the value of the first is pretty much set by the creator and demand for that animation, based on market prices and quality.

assuming an average market price, differing permissions really aren't worth a doubling in cost... especially if you factor in that quality animations will actually generate sales by word of mouth by increased exposure (I've asked at least 5 people during this last week where they got a particular anim). and at a guess I'd say the market would bear a 1.5 times increase for changed permissions on animations that would potentially be used in group settings or multiple locations...

now if you are underpricing the market for the quality level of your product, you can get away with higher multiples, as long as the final product is still under the market cap. and in fact you may see an upswing in total sales for the old permissions and deeply undercut prices, because there is a large scrimp and save crowd that is more willing to live with the risk because it's what their budget allows

('im lucky enough that I did all my own walks so the three ao's i've had eaten didn't hurt me too much... only lost 1 stand set)

You're looking at it from the perspective of what it costs you in support. And yes - at the end of the day, those costs/distributor side considerations are equal.

When it comes to Pricing (or "Market Value" of things - none of your considerations really come into play. The Market Value of something is merely the price one might be willing to pay on an open market. Since there is more demand (and more potential uses) for a copyably item, its value is higher - and thus you can reasonably expect that one might be willing to pay more for it.

----

I think part of the problem here is that a lot of people are thinking of SL as a fun place to hang out, and not a place for anything more than playing. But people do make a living here. It takes time to make great animations and if the creator of the animation charges what they think you will think it's worth. And that money they make allows them to spend more time creating great animations because it's one less cup of coffee they have to spend money earned in some other way on.

The vast variety really "fun" things in SL exist because there are people who treat their business like a business. Sure, there are some people like the OpenCollar creators who make a great (and growing) line of products for free. But not everyone can afford this amount of time.

Take someone like Arcadia Asylum, who was here for a number of years making some of SL's greatest prefabricated builds and objects ever. Arcadia is no longer able to do this anymore because she had to head out into the real world and make some real money to put food on the table. Had she charged for her builds and run what she did as a business, she might have been able to stay here and still be building to this day. (I've always suspected that Arcadia still graces SL in the guise of another person and maybe even has one of the more successful companies in SL right now - but that's merely speculation.)

So yep - there ARE people who make cool things and give them away as either free or really cheaply - for as long as they can afford to do so. But there are other people who have monetized their ventures in order to continue to do it over the long term and to help pay the bills at home so they can work less hours at a real job - or skip the real job altogether. And it is because of this that there is SO MUCH cool and fun stuff in SL. The sheer volume of new and great things that emerge from SL on a regular basis is simply because there are people out there who have managed to find a way to take the $1 you pay for a no-copy animation and the $2 you pay for a copyable one and turn those one and two dollar transactions into something where they can support themselves.

If anyone here doesn't like the fact that people run their businesses like businesses and not like it's a fun little game - that's fine. You don't have to like it. You don't have to give them your business at all. And if you don't think it's worth an extra dollar for a copyable animation, and you don't want no-copy ones, then that animation isn't worth it and you simply don't buy it. If enough people don't buy it, the price will come down eventually - or the person will just go out of business and no one will get any of their animations ever again.

It's up to you. But being upset at someone for trying to set a fair price based upon a fair assumption that a copyable animation has more value to the consumer than a no copy one, is silly. Especially since that assumption must be true or this discussion wouldn't even be happening.

The *tone* is *not acceptable* -- who decides what the tone is? Wouldn't that be unique to each person reading it? And who gets to dictate which tones are and are not acceptable?

This one sounds like the nanny police coming out again. If you don't like something, then either change the way you are looking at it and interpreting it or do not read it.

"[fair pricing] really is a community thing. That is how i always think when i do business in SL - but i am a sucker that way, a product of my rez-date."
i think youre both taking offence at what looks to me to be a belief that 03 was more about community than profit, and thus an 03 merchant av is more likely community-driven than profit-driven, which makes complete sense when you recall... wait, i mean, read about, the past grid with broken perms and a whole 20 people on the grid.
oh, you mean where somebody gets upset and starts drama regarding what another av DIDNT make public on the forum last year? makes sense to me!

No, I mean where someone throws in their rez date as some sort of "I'm better than you all" as happened in this thread.

"but i am a sucker that way, a product of my rez-date."

This is on page one of the thread.

I made my opinion clear and also informed some of the misinformed that it is not a minority opinion.

Enjoy your day

in case you didnt actually bother to read it:

thats what i thought

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xe1a1wHxTyo

Dunno why..

Bingo That's spot on.

playing it up for the cameras hey:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/zomgwtfbbqgtfololcats/31959-another-2003-mantra.html#post741951

go get siggy now:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/31301-sorry-bit-about-7.html#post728712
go get flipper now:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/slu-announcements/31091-happy-6th-birthday-second-life.html#post723337
go get huns now:
http://www.sluniverse.com/php/vb/general-sl-discussion/30939-anybody-else-more-laggy-than.html#post721610

You are a drama monger.

#1 - You came in the thread an attacked me repeatedly.

#2 - You are cross posting this thread in another forum inviting people who never read here, to come and join in your hate drama.

Eku Zhong = class act.

Way to beat the drums of war. You can't speak for yourself but instead need to cross post in other forums to get people to come support your B.S. And start yet another "i hate briana dawson" daily SLU thread.

Way to go! Call your troops!

I was emphasizing that "back in [the year that can't be mentioned] People were not there for the sole purpose of making an income and the pricing of things was way different and cheaper.

Chip Midnight said over and over again that he thought people in SL did not price their things high enough in his opinion, and has also mentioned that has changed in the new years.

The fact that you took an innocent statement as an OFFENSIVE remark of SUPERIORITY and to think it meant "I'm better than you all", says a lot about how you view me and the gross bias in judgment you have regarding my posts and the intent of my words.

Saying "I'm better than you all" is not what i was saying, was not my intentions, and so far only YOU and EKU the Cross Poster Drama Inviter have taken it as a personal issue.

What does that say?

And yes, I am a product of my rez-date. If i make things, i prefer that they be accessible to the lowest denominator on the grid, not just those people who can set USD monthly budgets of money to blow in SL. And that, i stick by. No it is not an attitude EXCLUSIVE TO [the year that cannot be mentioned], but it is a more common attitude of that era, than now.

the things that i said about iraq 2 years ago that were sooo controvertial? jn is over there saying the same things and people are tripping over themselves to mash the agree buttons
my opinion is to ignore these people. they have a social ladder to climb over there hey.

No. They would rather read the thread, assume they are being attacked personally and respond accordingly - which means making personal attacks all along while taking the high road.

It amazes me how people can go from friendly IM communication and revealing secrets, to insults and vitriol over a post not related to them at all.

If a person goes looking for insults, they will eventually twist whatever they find into said insult. As witnessed in this thread.

It has only been 3 people doing the name calling and taking things personally. Everyone else seems to be discussing the topic and have actually given me a different perspective.

Though i still agree doubling the cost is excessive, but some sort of charge can be justified.