Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

I'm asking for LL to develop a regime that allows European businesses in SL to do business in the same way that they do in RL.

Political pressure against VAT has no hope of being effective, and all of the Euro landlords will have been forced out of SL long before politics can make any difference.

But that regime is based on the protectionist, subsidationist, state-owned-ist, policies of the EU. European businesses would suffer these same competitive issues in RL if it were not for the firm, international tarriff union between European countries. So in a sense, what you are seeing here is the removal of that "advantage" you have as a result of banding together with other relatively inefficient economies to deal with each other on a tariff-beneficial, yet otherwise economically inefficient basis.

I'm sorry to say, but that's the issue here. Asking for special treatment from non-Europeans is a waste of breath.

Why should LL have "Given the heads Up First"? Excuse me But living i Canada, and paying Attention to my Local and national news, I tend to know all about Changes to the Canadian Tax Structure LONG before a US Based on line Game Provider. The Same should hold true for the residents of EU Nations.
I think if you are relying on LL to Let you know what's going on in your (Non U.S.) Country, you are probably Playing SL WAAAYYYY too much, and you need to log, Pull your head out (edit) of the sand (end edit), and Start Reading your Newspapers more often.

Frankly, I don't see ANY of it as either LL's Responsibility, OR Problem.

Angel.

Is it the EU's fault that LL can't communicate? Is it the EU's fault that LL doesn't know how to work as an international company? You don't seem to get the part that most of us don't care about the money. What troubles me in this matter is that LL doesn't seem to the know rules worldwide and made me believe my stay on SL was totally legal. Ive been paying LL already a time now and they seemed not to be paying VAT. I have a real life business and asked LL repeatedly on how the taxes where handeld and never got an answer. So don't come tell me that i have to complain with the EU as I have taken every step with LL to make sure all VAT was handled correctly.

To me the whole thing ain't settled with the announcement about VAT because i'm still in the dark over what happened until now. Someone will have to pay the taxes that not seemed to have been paid until now.

It's not that, Angel - the law has been in place for years now, and Europeans are accustomed to having the VAT included in the price, so they never really feel the tax the way they do now. And I believe there are certain consumer protection laws in the various EU member nations that require advance notice to changes in pricing on certain things. For most SLers, they believed that either there was no VAT, or that the VAT was already included in the price. Sadly, they are incorrect and LL has decided to pass on the cost of the VAT, but the real problem is that they had no notice of the change and the bill is being hiked without ample notice and possibly in violation of the same consumer protection laws. The lack of notice is what is not fair.

This thread has been really educational in the ways people miscommunicate with each other, and probably the best example of why the General forum seemed like the right one to close. It's also probably why the Second Citizen forum decided to kill itself.

There was a question: Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

There was an answer: No one is really complaining about VAT, its the utter lack of communication or advanced notice from LL that VAT would need to start being imposed primarily because of their decision to open offices in the UK.

And somehow its turned into a 5 page rant about healthcare, the price of software and whose country sucks more.

Nice.

I'm going to go re-read Atlas Shrugged now.

Again, your opinion of EU politics - while entirely valid - is completely irrelevant.

Also, it's nothing to do with a "tariff union between European countries". Remember, the exact law that's caused this problem says that USA (and other!) internet businesses have to charge VAT if the customer is in the EU. (Linden Labs having a presence in the UK has nothing to do with it.) So it's a _worldwide_ Tariff union, and the USA is already part of it.

But more important is that the reasons why don't matter. No EU-based business will want to enter SL if doing so means they go into competition with the US without the usual protections (and thus will be unable to compete). And SL isn't - yet - big enough (or USA-centric enough) to say that "this isn't SL's problem".

Nothing has changed in the EU. This tax is here already from before LL ever started off. So it's nothing residents should have gotten from the news or newspaper. It is forbidden to sell any product in the EU without including VAT so nothing will be sold overhere without VAT.

It's the same as saying you should know that you have to drive a US car on the leftside of the one road in canada. Or do you drive on the left as being a part of the UK?

Angel

I have to disagree ..... yes there is a need for residents (RL as well as SL) to identify, understand and comply with whatever rules and regulations are applicable. But as has been posted elsewhere, there was a complete change in how LL decided to handle the VAT implications for European residents.

Clearly this did not happen overnight.. it would have taken some time to figure all the detail out. But it would have been clear pretty much from the outset that VAT would have to applied to EU resident $ transactions with LL.

Instead of letting us know that this was going to be an issue, they kept silent and then announced it and introduced the tax change - leading to the many posts about agreed price etc.

What I fail to understand is why, when for example the Chancellor (Finance Minister of the UK) can announce changes in taxation levels months in advance to allow businesses and people to plan their strategy, LL took the opposite approach and announced it at the same time as they started billing EU residents the tax. They would have known some time ago this was going to happen, but it seems chose to stay silent - for whatever reason - and just landed it on people, leading to the current angst.

Inc

This law was introduced to prevent EU businesses being in the position that SL business owners from the EU now find themselves in. That's the biggest irony of it all.

It Amounts to the Same Thing, the problem is Between the EU residents, and their taxation department.
I don't expect the Manufacturer or the Service Provider to warn me if the GST (Canada's Goods and Services Tax) becomes Applicable to their product. it is My responsibility to Know my tax laws as they Stand, and the Governments responsibility to Inform me IF there is any Change. If the citizens of the EU were not Warned, it is Their Governing Body, Not LL that is at fault. If the law has always been as it is now, then the EU Citizens were merely Lucky up to now, and their Luck has Run Out (If it were Revenue Canada, they would probably Seek retroactive payment).

At present, services like SL are Exempt from the GST here. My Tier payments ,If i made any Might Not be, BUT My Payments to my ISP Are taxed.

A.

The irony of it all is that the way things are going even with taxes Second Life is still cheaper if you live in the EU

I agree, that they were lucky and their luck has run out. But LL's only problem is that they should have given more notice, to be in compliance with the consumer protection laws that Europeans are accustomed to. Some people were billed at the new rate and were not told that they would have the VAT included in their payment. Had LL set it out another month (say, November 1) to pass on VAT, it would not have garnered this kind of outrage. Then again, who knows.... you can never win if you are LL. But it would have given people time to structure their holdings accordingly.

Yes I agree. It's a prime example of how regulations can have unintended consequences in my opinion -- screwing EU business, in this case, rather than helping it.

I find it more complicated than that. I don't understand where LL get's the exemption of paying previous unpaid taxes. This law is not new and didn't come in effect last month. We don't get any info on that and that's why a lot of europeans are upset.

It just don't make no sense to settle taxes from now on and don't talk about the past. This way it looks like LL is just overcharging EU customers because if they didn't have to do it before it ain't possible they should charge now. Now it looks like a new law or new tax was invented in europe.

To me it looks like there has been illegal transfer of my money to LL.

You mean an attempt by the Eurocrats to impose European VAT on the rest of the world. That's not a tariff union, it's tax imperialism a la Bruxelles.

Yes it would have given more time, but there would have been outrage aplenty. The main source of the outrage is the increase in de facto cost. The crap treatment by LL in terms of notice is merely an easy thing to latch onto .. a more defensible gripe than bitching about taxes that they dont want to bitch about publically for the most part .. but even if there were adequate notice there would be bitching aplenty I am sure because of the cost issue.

Oh here it is. The USA wants full power now. Now the USA also wants to direct how the EU should handle their taxes?

We are talking about products sold to europeans, used in europe. Every US company deals with that without problems but suddenly it seems that LL isn't a real company and suddenly we talk about imperialism a bruxelloise ?


Why don't you just invade us? Oh i forgot your last invasion didn't work out that well.

If VAT is imposed on the merchant, it is the merchant's choice whether or not to pass it on, yes? If LL decided to eat the cost while they figured out what to do, that is LL's prerogative. From what has been stated, if you read past entries closely, they started paying after they opened the office in the UK a little while ago. And unless they are making you pay all the back taxes, I wouldn't worry about it!

They aren't overcharging anything - you were effectively getting a discount for the last couple of months, subsidized by the rest of the world. You continually fail to grasp the point of view from LL's perspective. Their service is worth X amount of dollars, and they charge everyone in the world the same price. But in order to comply with your outrageous tax law, Europeans have to pay the VAT and they are passing that cost on to the appropriate parties. There is nothing unfair about that.

They are a couple of months behind the curve and have eaten the cost of your VAT in the meanwhile while they pulled their heads out of their nether regions. You should be thankful they aren't charging you the back tax.

So now it goes from

(1) How can these possible be subject to VAT because everything I get is provided on a server in California

to

(2) This is a totally wonderful, justified tax, and I think American companies should pay it out of their own pockets and give our worshipful Euro-superiors a discount because of our superior enlightened tax and benefits regimes.

Honestly, you're a clown. This is a European tax, and it's your problem. Don't like it? Get the tax changed (like we did here when the industry lobbied to ban internet services taxes, and won) or move. And if you think you are entitled to a month or two of VAT more from LL, then sue them for it.

Why do you say that the outrage is about the increase? We live in europe, 20% of a dollar is still nothing to us.

We bitch about LL not being able to run their business like companies are forced too in europe. You can't cheat on customer!

Taxes should have been implemented as of the first sale in europe and LL needs to advertise their service like every company does that works globally. We can't have companies operating in europe that even don't know the tax rules in the EU!

wtf?

You need to log off.

I have soooo been resisting this pun

Sorry I couldn't resist on that one. I am weak ....

1. what you say about the servers in california is correct, but i'm still downloading their product so that means they export the sl product. In the modern world data is also a product.


2. You still don't get it. Because what you say is exactly what SL wants us to believe; That they paid our VAT out of their pockets because there is no mention of what happend with all euros ever charged by LL. I have been in contact with LL over EU VAT for months now and they always failed to mention that taxes do apply to them as every company that works in europe or exports to europe. Every company dealing with data knows this. Googleads knows this as does iTunes. I never encoutered a US company not knowing this.


So stop being so ignorant and put your view of the world on everyone that lives on the world because you don't know what you are talking about. You only read bad comments on the US and start to wave your flag.

LL has done illegal business in europe and if you don't see the problem LL is in you really need to get some education.

Honestly? You should shut up!