Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

Is that really the case for the majority of Americans? I personally can't imagine NOT doing so. I often pay at the till in cash with the exact change to the penny ready.

It comes as a surprise for us EU when visiting the US for the first time!

We see something for $5, take it to the till, hand over a $5 note....

Matthew

Actually what you don't know is that all of this EU VAT stuff has been decided in Washington. All of the VAT receipts of all EU nations are diverted secretly to the Pentagon ...

Right. I remember my first time living in Europe (in Germany many years ago) and reflexively getting more money ready than was on the ticket as I approached the till ... it all depends on what you are used to.

No. Many of us use credit or debit cards. Those using cash just wing it at the till -- I don't think anyone calculates it to the penny, to be honest.

Here we go again... go back a few pages and read. As far as LL is concerned, it gets the same amount of money from everyone. The tax is the EU's problem, not LL's. That they chose to eat your tax for a couple of months is nice, but they should have given more notice ahead of time. The notice question is the ONLY issue that is valid here, and EVERYONE is in agreement that LL bungled this up badly.

Here comes the anti-Americanism when it's YOUR governments that decided to rape you at the till? You are not entitled to a discount on LL's services! LL's services are worth a certain amount. The tax is above and beyond. Point your anger to Brussels and your capital!

they dont have a sales tax in the traditional sense.
but they do tax you. they just deduct a state income tax instead. its a big win for people in washington. they evade their sales tax by buying things (especially expensive things) across the bridge in oregon.

No one expects you to do the math, just bring a larger bill. Jeez.

Well not technically tax "evasion" (which is illegal), but tax "avoidance". We do the same on the East Coast in states like Delaware and New Hampshire that have no sales tax. However, DE and NH do not "deduct income tax" when you buy something -- there is *no* tax. So people go there to buy cars and such.

yeah they deduct a state income tax from your paycheck.
i believe they put a stop to washington ppl avoiding tax on big ticket items such as cars. but if you were going to buy a plasma screen home entertainment system or something...

It would.

However, Walker makes a valid point - LL has seen a growth in EU accounts - if as a result of VAT that growth should decrease or worse there is an exodus of EU accunts, LL may have to have to start seriously considering how to attract the EU market back. One way might be to introduce a EU price in Euro (and perhaps UK Sterling) which (initially at least) works out to be less than $295 + VAT after currency conversion

It may sound unfair - but instead of a single global price for a single global market, you segment the global market, and charge each segment what that segment is prepared to pay.

It works the otherway around for things like iTunes - where the Europeans get charged substantially more than the US even after taking currency conversion and tax/VAT into account.

Matthew

In practice, to the extent LL has actually been remitting VAT, it has been subsidizing the EU VAT taxes related to its EU customers. Since it gets its revenues from its customers, in that case we would have all been indirectly subsidizing the EU VAT, probably in the form of getting less performance bang for our buck in SL. (Actually, I suspect they have been ignoring the VAT until now. ) Now, LL must pay, and is not going to eat the VAT and neither are its non-EU customers.

Agreed, that LL should have given notice and otherwise prepared people for the blow. I'm fully in sympathy with that. It's a raw deal. A lot of people must have gotten blindsided by this action. They do not deserve to be treated like that. I seriously think LL owes them some sort of compensation and would be well-advised to make it up to them in some way.

Not agreed that LL or its non-EU customers should be shouldering the tax, either by paying higher prices to LL or by LL absorbing the VAT, from which non-Euros will get no benefit from the EU.

Not agreed that it is the manufacturer or distributor who pays the tax and not the customer. That is certainly the legal form, and the commonly held belief, apparently, but the reality is they just stick it into the price and pass it along to the customer that way.

So, no, no sympathy for people who love the EU VAT so much they want other people to help pay it for them. Or for those who think LL, a non-EU company, should refrain from separating out the VAT from the underlying product price just because that is the common practice in EU-land. It chooses not to do that. If you don't like it, well, okay, you don't like it.

The imposition of this tax is indeed going to hurt SL and everyone in it, the EU folks who have to pay it first and foremost. That is what taxes do, and the question is what do people get in return for the hit. My sympathies for getting hurt, but at least the EU-ers will have a better understanding of what taxes are costing them, which is essential to deciding whether what they are getting is really such a good deal from their governments. And no, sorry, you'll still have to pay your own tax.

Oh of course .. yes most states have payroll taxes as well.

No need to be like that. I do it to be polite, when I can, but maybe that's against your culture too. *tease*

I think it works the other way round in almost every case. As far as I can tell, Europeans are being charged more because, among other things, of the big VAT percentages. Blizzard, for example, simply quotes its "inclusive of VAT" price as the local currency equivalent of USD 15 plus the local VAT (roughly). I would expect LL to do the same. I mean, to be fair, you all (UK and Eurozone) are benefitting already substantially from the weak USD relative to your currencies. Another discount seems unwarranted.

I would much rather pay a VAT and have free healthcare. Not having any kind of affordable health care in this country is one of the biggest crimes the USA has affected against its citizens. They spend billions of our tax dollars on a war the majority of us don't support, without giving us a say, while millions of people suffer with health problems that could easily be taken care of if it weren't for the high cost of doctors and medicine. It's hideously sad.

Yeah, it sucks the EU is being taxed on something that they don't even need. I don't really understand how their government can tax something that's not even real (though my spouse explained that if it's something that you could sell or resell for real currency, naturally the government wants a slice) but that's an issue EU should take up with their government, just like US did with ours when the officials tried to levy a tax against internet usage.

The american stupidity roars again! We are not raped by the EU! We are raped by LL. We don't care about paying extra taxes. LL has lied to us by acting to be a real company. They frauded with our tax money! They didn't pay the taxes they should have paid! They gave us prices without mentioning tax was not included, that my dear is forbidden in the EU so LL shouldn't have accepted our money and tell us to play somewhere else. It's very clear that US citizens can be tossed around, taken away their freedoms and still will cheer.

SO READ CAREFULLY : It's not about the money, we just want some real service from a real company!

I dont know about any other UK SL occupants but I think its time we were charged in pounds and shown prices inclusive of VAT.

By the way has anyone seen Lidens VAT number yet because the one thing they cant do (as far as the UK is concerned anyway) is charge VAT without one.

Alternatively come on over invade us and make us the 51st state then we wouldnt have to worry about the EU or VAT...

By the way could we have that nice Angelina Jolie girl as Governor please

The only imperialism here, you shortsighted fool, is that of Brussels -- imposing its national VAT regimes on any company located anywhere in the world. That is taxational imperialism. I suspect you don't care because you love taxes and it is easier to bash the American company than it is to look at the real imperialists here: your tax-grabbing Eurocrats in Bruxelles, who would pick the pockets (or try to) of even those who are not in Europe!

The only stupid one is you - You don't call a 20ish percent tax rape? You're out of your mind. You're off the teat! Get used to it! If the VAT didn't exist you would pay the same thing the rest of the world does! And NO state sales tax. But LL has to comply and they aren't going to make us subsidize you. Too bad so sad, go take it up with your government.

As I SAID, the NOTICE ISSUE is the only valid one and we all already agree that LL was wrong. You haven't changed that. And I give less of a shit every time this anti-American nonsense comes spewing out of someone's mouth.

I find it amusing how some people are fixated on the evil VAT!!!

It's not about the VAT. I've been paying VAT on stuff since whenever, so how could I possibly be rabidly annoyed about it? It's just LL screwing up *again*, and in an especially annoying manner too.

We get good stuff in return for our taxes. More "raping" please!

I repeat my request for Angelina Jolie please

You can't be sure of that.

I certainly wasn't demanding sympathy by pointing out the one or two things that could happen.

Rather considering a situation that appears to be unfolding and LL's possible reaction to it:

Fact is: People are tiering down or selling up as a result of what happened. I would assume many will dump their premium accounts while they're at it.

If that is happening across the entire European customerbase, LL has a HUGE problem and will be forced to increase the platform's appeal to those users again.

My guess is they'll either try to conceal a subsidy via stealth (increase prices across the board; charge everybody the same rates; tell Europeans it's inclusive of VAT) or make the European disadvantage less obvious by charging them in their own currency.

No sympathy required.
I am not requesting they implement either of these things.
Just anticipating the next move.

Unfortunately not - it is an almost universal truth especially with software and computer hardware that what costs $100 in the US, costs £100 in the UK regardless of the exchange rate.

As a check, I just compared prices on amazon.co.uk and amazon.com for Vista Ultimate DVD Full edition.

According to amazon.com the US recommended price is $399.99 (that's about £200 at the current exchange rate), and amazon's price is $323.98 (£160)

However, on amazon.co.uk the UK recommended price is £369.99 (which is a 89% mark up on the US price), and amazon.co.uk's price is £320.48 (which is nearly a 100% mark up).

There are plenty of other examples!

Matthew