Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

Dekka: The thing is, you've got no choice but to "let them get away with it". It's not their choice to add this surcharge in the first place. They're being forced to do it.

Sure Chris and every other American would be mad if 5%, 10% or 25% was suddenly slapped onto their LL bill, but realistically, that's not going to happen in a million years.

I honestly don't think it's wise to go down the "how would you Americans feel?" route, because how they feel is not going to resolve this issue. Sure, some will use the situation to air their nationalistic agenda, but thankfully most have sympathised and shown solidarity.

Europeans wouldn't think to ask if something includes VAT, the price printed is the price to pay, it's not the consumers place to care if it does as it's the supplier who is liable for it. VAT had never crossed my mind, I didn't even have to think of customs holding at import if over £22.

VAT is a fact of life in the UK but you simply dont expect VAT on something as intangible as what is to all intents and purposes a glorified version of 'The Sims' especially when it comes from a point of origin outside the UK.

Unfortunately the rules being heaped on SL users begin to make the games manual for CIV III look like a comic book and the marvellous world of fantasy and escape is all to quickly turning into an edition of The New Economist.

read my lips: "by not allowing anyone".

They are billing me the agreed upon price. The sales tax is between me and the government.
As for the state issue, I can accept it and find a way to compete or move. That is what freedom is all about.

As an International company providing services to consumers in the EU they are under International Trading laws and Treaties subject to EU consumer laws and regulations on transactions with EU citizens.



My credit card statement begs to differ - the amount being charged by LL to my credit card *has* increased. My contract with LL was to charge a certain monthly amount to my credit card - no more, no less. Charging more is a change of that agreement.



But the *amount* of money LL actually takes has increased. Under EU law, the consumer law that LL must obligue by to conduct business in the EU (if they didn't have to obligue by these laws they wouldn't have to charge VAT would they!), it is the *amount* actually paid by me to LL which constitutes the contractural deal *not* the the amount which goes into LL bank account after taxes etc. have been deducted. Under EU law, if that *amount* changes LL is contracturally and legally obligued to give notice, even if the amount LL gets after tax is unchanged.

If an American company doesn't like the EU regulations, then quite simply it shouldn't sell to EU customers (and there are plently of websites out there of American companies which will not sell to customers outside the US)

Matthew

"They are billing me the agreed upon price. The sales tax is between me and the government."

If that was really true I'd be sending money to 11 downing street, not LL. VAT is something sellers pay and it should be reflected in the price they charge you.

And they have the power to stop people from opening a competing system how? They do not have a monopoly only the government has that. If you can find the investors you can develop and market your own "Second Life". But Linden Lab does not have the power to keep anyone out of the market.

Sounds like not selling in the EU is the proper course of action then.

In the UK, where LL is a registered business, VAT is legally defined as being included in the quoted price unless explicitly stated otherwise. The exact opposite, more or less.



Since the VAT wasn't explicitly stated as not being included, EU citizens everywhere rightly concluded that it was being included in the quoted price. This viewpoint is enshrined in many European laws.



You say it is an American company. It has a physical presence in Europe too, which makes it, from a legal and tax point of view, a European company too, and therefore subject to European laws regarding how prices are quoted. It's multinational.

The issue is that VAT in the EU does not work in the same way as sale tax in the US.

As you say sales tax is between you and the government and is over and above the agreed price with the buyer

VAT however is between the *seller* and the government, and is taken *from* the agreed price with the buyer

LL is imposing (not by its own choice admittedly) *VAT* onto EU customers, not *sales tax* as such it must impose *VAT* in accordance with how *VAT* works not how *sales tax* works.

Matthew

Even tho the retailer in America collects the sales tax, it goes to the government. Hell they would just as soon we not pay it to the government. Because then we could afford to buy more of their product.

Your argument is not with LL, it is with your overtaxing government.

Absolutely I would accept that. I rather expect there to be tax when I purchase something.

Let me rephrase. Say, a year ago, before all this happened and before there was an office in England, would any EU player question whether or not they should be paying VAT on their purchases from an overseas business? I mean obviously, well sarcastically, apparently nobody at LL knew they were supposed to but didn't anybody say "hey LL? does your pricing include VAT to your overseas customers, by law?"

I understand the 'enshrined' in many European laws, I just don't know why any EU player would not assume LL as incompetent as they can be were also incompetent about VAT laws.

Ugh. So many misperceptions in this thread.

To answer this one: YES. We are accustomed to virtually all of our prices to be "plus tax". Clearly this is how LL prices their things, coming from the US perspective. The laws in Europe are different about this, where the tax is "hidden" in the price, and LL has not complied with that.



We have states that have income tax rates of 7-10% and other ones that have no income tax at all. We're used to that. Everything can't always be equal all the time.

As I said, I've been paying VAT since I signed up.... The problem is with LL who have bumped up their prices with no notification using VAT as a lame excuse. I'm not interested in your precious culture.

I have already answered your question on the previous page, no we wouldn't think to question if something includes VAT as the end consumer isn't responsible for it. VAT is not the same as US sales tax, it is the seller who has to pay it and will incorporate it into the prices of goods.

Oh come on! There are already too many comments about Ugly Americans on these threads already. Please don't give a legitimate reason.

My European friends, please attack the individual not the country. We're not all as idiotic as this.

qUOTE - 'Your argument is not with LL, it is with your overtaxing government.'

You dont get it do you ? But thats because I suspect its more fun for you not to

God Bless America

You have no basis for stating that.

Trying to draw parallels with sales tax and VAT is doomed to fail because they work differently.

VAT is the responsibility of the seller and is taken *from* the price agreed with the customer (indeed if the seller has a turnover below £65000 annually, they don't need to register and hence do not have to pay VAT out of the price). Most EU members wouldn't ask about VAT unless they could claim it back.

Matthew

A more accurate statement is that *if* VAT was applicable before, it was LL's responsibility to deduct it from the monies we have been paying them.

Matthew

At that time, I was in Japan, so any discussion for me regarding VAT was irrelevant. I had no more reason to think I'd be paying VAT to a European government as I had to think I would be paying income tax to the US government while resident in Japan.

But to answer your question, VAT law does appear to state that any supplier of a service such as LL's must charge VAT if the person receiving the service is resident in the EU. Since LL was accepting international companies even back then, the onus was always upon LL to ensure they were complying with all relevant international laws.

(aside: Yes, I realise before that Brighton office was established, there was no practical way to enforce VAT, and wouldn't be again if they'd close that office. let's not derail this thread though.)

Boo hoo. Isn't it just a tragedy that a misguided piece of over-regulation is coming back to bite the protected on their collective asses.

Sorry. I have sympathy that LL should have provided warning for this. Without question that is a fuckup and appears to be illegal. I hope LL fixes that somehow and makes people whole for the notice period.

But this whole idea that LL should provide for a level playing field when it is the EU that is undermining that by imposing taxes on you all is nonsense. As I said in another thread, Europeans should essentially recreate an EU within SL: voluntarily agreeing to pay each other *more* for goods and services to prop each other up, much as the EU does in RL. That way you don't have to worry about the US landowners being cheaper, because you're paying more out of a sense of European solidarity. Nothing wrong with that, if you choose to do so, really.

Fail.

In 2003, VAT was applied to electronic commerce. We've been paying VAT all along.

http://www.your2ndplace.com/node/619