Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

Uh. Yes, our veto does apply to tax directives actually, but if every country in the EU vetoed everything they didn't agree with, there would be no point having a vote at all. No legislation would be passed whatsoever because a single nation would be bound to veto it.

Vetoes are used as a last resort, but obviously if people won't talk to their MPs, MEPs or petition the government about objectionable policies, how on earth are they meant to gauge public feeling and understand that actually, this might be worth vetoing if we are to win the next election/get support for that referendum/whatever. Although I admit a veto is a long shot and particularly unlikely, the discussion enabled by voters getting involved in the democratic process (through petitions or whatever) might at least result in some concessions that benefit us when this policy next comes up for review.

I'm aware of the enforcement issues, and how they're affected by LL's presence here. I've been talking about them till I'm blue in the face since last Thursday. I don't see the point of going over all that again.

Um... no.. all that's been suggested is that LL should charge VAT to European SL consumers, not to European SL businesses (who, under Euro law, don't have to pay VAT on business supplies).

LL rightly gave VAT-registered businesses in Europe a way to register for their VAT exemption. The problem is that in order to register that way, they have to show that they're collecting VAT from European customers, and SL has provided no method for doing that and no protection of EU businesses that do it.

Well that's the tricky part. I've looked into becoming VAT registered and I can't because L$ transactions are exempt and if all transactions are exempt, you can't file for VAT registration.

I'm not quite sure how businesses are addressing this issue unless somehow they use SL as an advertising tool or they're charging by Paypal.

If LL come and open a computer centre in jolly old England actually employ a few English staff and perhaps cancel out some of the lag by moving nearer their customers great....

unfortunately 40 quid a month is still too much to be paying for a 'game' no matter how addictive. Perhaps a move to England will see Lindens actually setting prices in sterling which may actually take account for the addition of VAT.

I wouldnt mind if I was paying 40 quid purely for my tier but Im not a big chunk of it is tax and thats just plain silly - the increase ups my bill to lindens by well over a hundred dollars per annum.

Im addicted to sl and love the world. BUT NOT that MUCH.

And while Lindens cant be blamed for imposing the tax the way theyve done it is absolutely feeble.

I still dont think some 'freebies' to VAT paying EU customers such as an 'inconvenience payment' in the form of increased land ownship or a payment of lindens to be used inworld would have hurt anyone and might have done something to divert some of the furore.

I simply feel from the way this and other issues have been handled that customer satisfaction doesnt seem to count for that much to Lindens and feel that devotion for their product will begin to die out unless they treat their customers a little differently.

Since Chris is one of the brightest, most levelheaded, and most SL-knowledgeable people I know, your snide remark just blew your credibility all to H*11.

Its all a circle - if they have high taxes, high wages, etc, then they make more money but cost of living is higher.

Similar to living in LA, Boston or New York compared to Indiana.

When I first bought something in the US it confused the hell out of me.

Honestly ( ignoring the actual rate involved ) the UK system is MUCH better.

MUCH easier to work out shopping, budget things etc. (for example going grocery shopping with £30 in your pocket).

In fact in the UK if you see a price on something legally that is what you pay, you CANNOT then charge something different at the till ( which of course can happen if someone mispriced something ) .

Better for you, maybe. It also has the convenient advantage (for your government) of hiding from the consumer just how much the tax man is taking when you are at the till. It's just a different mindset. Saying that the UK's system is "better" is just a case of the cultural imperialism that countless Europeans endlessly accuse Americans of.

Actually, it doesn't quite work that way. Most UK businesses calculate their prices for the market and then consider the VAT removed from that price.

For example, you might buy a book in the UK for UKP9.99, and that's all you'll pay. But I'm sure you can tell that the price wouldn't have come out at a nice figure like UKP9.99 if the retailer hadn't arranged things so that it would. I don't think they've even consciously decided to make the non-VAT price be UKP8.24; they just sell at the total that the market will bear and then take off the percentage for VAT.

It deflects anger over high taxes from the government to the seller.

Heck in the US we dont even know what the Taxes are that are added to Gasoline and Cigarettes. Since they follow that system.

So when Gas prices are through the roof we tell the government to help us from the greedy oil companies - whithout stopping to consider how much of that price is the greedy government.

Yes, of course, hence the convenience to the tax man of having the tax "built into" the price, coupled with the added benefit of peddling that to the average consumer as being more convenient for paying. It's awesome! You get to have sky high taxes and have the consumer blame the merchant for them -- a win/win for the treasury.

Well we do know what the tax rate is so it's not really hidden. In fact it's well publiscised.

We just don't know any better, but OTOH there are things our taxes pay for you guys don't get ( National Health Service for instance ).

Also quite often in fact the price of stuff in the UK is comparable (definatly not 17.5%) with a US pre-tax price so whilst it's a big chunk overall I don't think we (normall) suffer much of a price disadvantage.

Actually in the UK we DON'T complain about oil prices. We probably generally don't even know what they are, because we know full well the bulk of the costs on the pumps is tax.

Same with Beer ( although I paid more in the US for beer often ) and Cigarettes ( best thing taxes in the world ) - we know the price is heavy on tax.

In fact a few years back there was a lot of petrol protests...

...

At the amount of tax on petrol getting too high.

There's a difference, though, between knowing the tax rate, in theory, and seeing it every time you pay for something. It makes it invisible to you, and therefore less painful. But as I said it is a mindset issue.

Interesting comment on the pricing. When I've lived in Europe I've found things to be terribly more expensive than in the US, but perhaps I just shopped in the wrong places. Other UK residents were posting here yesterday about how prices for many items in the UK were the numerical equivalent of the US prices or more (eg, something costing USD 100 here would go for GBP 100 there) .. which of course is at least twice as expensive taking into account exchange rates, but you have to adjust for wages and other costs to arrive at some kind of a purchasing power parity concept, in any case.

It varies of course, but quick look on Amazon ( for example - didn't go into every price there but took me about 2 mins to find this one ) the X1950 is $194.84 - I can get it for a max of about £100 (inclusive) in the UK. (typically a lot less).

Wow - ok

We need to all start posting on one or two of these VAT threads- this is getting out of hand , even for me.

B) Use the knowledge base and maybe you will find it.

C) I will take Dipstik Arkansas with low reasonable taxes over the crap you let the government pile on you any day of the week. 14 man hours to figure out one tax issue? Yeah right tell me I am a tit.

Well customer service can't be a craphole and LL will notice that in Europe you just can't screw the customers and get away with it. Now LL admits that they do have customers in europe they will have to adapt to our laws and will not be able to hide behind their server being in california. Ask Bill Gates, he also tried to screw us with his bloatware.

Yes, because giving you a free media player that you didn't have to use was really screwing you over.

And still no in depth probing article from Reuters.
One wonders what Reuter's Second Life feed considers "news".
Ah yes. "Driving through sims". Hmmm.
Is any one else wondering how much Reuter's is in SL's pocket or visa versa?

Yes *that* Reuters.

The one that first started the noises about the FBI investigating gambling. (Which proved to be wrong). And came just 2 days before the ban gambling move.
The same one that made a noise about the child pornography case and investigations in to pornography in SL. And came just before the ID proposals now in progress.
The same one that hasn't actually noticed the VAT thing at all ...

Shame really. When Reuters report on things, SL seems to jump and sort it out!

PS. I just noticed someone else in this forum (not this thread), said they emailed a lengthy message to Reuters back on the 28th. Shrugs ... Maybe they are holiday ...

German Finance Minister did an statement about. It is absolutely unclear Second Life - or any virtual online game would qualify for tax. If I have a business running, a VAT number, and I do pay tax based on the income what I "could" have on Second Life I should also be able to write of the amount of minus I have there.

I guess this would be just to much for them to handle.

I think we in Europe are just the first ones.

I understand that companies in SL want a bill if they buy an island or sim. I also understand this bill must have a valid amount of tax mentioned. If this is not the case, no company would be interested in the long term to invest in SL.

I understand this is not Lindens fault, we all have to follow the law. But as for SL I guess it is the next wave of loosing residents.

If Linden Lab would make it up for players... for example dropping sim or island prices abit, or providing more prims it would make it up at least abit again.

The other thing is that I assume my premium membership already has CA tax calculated in the quarterly amount I pay. So now I get charged on top EU tax on it. So I pay double?

Well, I wanna see how Linden sorts this out.