These forums are CLOSED. Please visit the new forums HERE
Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL? |
|
|
Haravikk Mistral
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,482
|
10-01-2007 02:35
It's not gonna happen unfortunately. Despite the supposed strength of feeling, despite the sheer number of Brits I've made aware of a pre-existing Downing Street petition requesting the abolition of the E-Business Directive, only four have signed in the past nine hours. Where is this petition? _____________________
Computer (Mac Pro):
2 x Quad Core 3.2ghz Xeon 10gb DDR2 800mhz FB-DIMMS 4 x 750gb, 32mb cache hard-drives (RAID-0/striped) NVidia GeForce 8800GT (512mb) |
|
Warda Kawabata
Amityville Horror
Join date: 4 Nov 2005
Posts: 1,300
|
10-01-2007 02:37
If you are an EU-based consumer (putting in more money than you take out), the weak dollar's exchange rate is quite good for you. if you are an EU-based producer, you are earning your money ultimately in US$, and so you want the dollar to be strong.
The EU based consumers are screwed by having a 17.5% cut in their discretionary spending money for SL. The EU based producers are screwed by the poor exchange rate. _____________________
 I rent out land on private islands. Message me in-world for details. |
|
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
|
10-01-2007 02:58
b) when I recieve a VAT-rated item from another EU country, I can claim it back, provided I have the EU VAT number of the company issuing the charge (because I am a VAT registered sole trader). Where have LL published their VAT number? LL VAT Registration NUmber is in the Knowledge Base - search for VAT or use the link in the blog entry about VAT. "Our VAT registration ID is EU826011179." _____________________
Deira
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!. |
|
Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
|
10-01-2007 03:05
Where is this petition? It's easier to sign the downing street petition than it is to create a forum post containing more than a few words. /dropping out of the VAT threads for now. They've just become platforms for people to air their superiority complexes (re. nationalistic agendas, etc.). _____________________
It's only a forum, no one dies.
|
|
Haravikk Mistral
Registered User
Join date: 8 Oct 2005
Posts: 2,482
|
10-01-2007 03:11
Ah, I had signatures turned off since I'm at work. I've signed up, will confirm when I get home. I'll get in touch with other UK members I know in-world and see about the spreading the word some more.
_____________________
Computer (Mac Pro):
2 x Quad Core 3.2ghz Xeon 10gb DDR2 800mhz FB-DIMMS 4 x 750gb, 32mb cache hard-drives (RAID-0/striped) NVidia GeForce 8800GT (512mb) |
|
Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
10-01-2007 03:12
I have added it to mine, and yes I signed - but with a real name not my avatar name
Broccoli _____________________
~ This space has been abandoned as I can no longer afford it.
|
|
Deira Llanfair
Deira to rhyme with Myra
Join date: 16 Oct 2006
Posts: 2,315
|
10-01-2007 03:14
I think you might be misunderstanding. (Easy in a thread this bloated with nonsense) 1) VAT requirements have not changed legally since SL began to pay VAT several months ago. There are no government changes to keep track of for the Europeans in regards to this. 2) SL began to pay VAT when they realized it was a legal necessity. That's very okay and very reasonable. They did not make this change in *company* policy and structure clear to it's customers. It's still not very clear that everyone is paying the billing system housed in England until I (american) get my credit card statement indicating international charges. =/ Initially they paid VAT out of the then-current cost of services. 3) It is a legal requirement in Europe to include a note when the price on an item is NOT inclusive of VAT. (This is pretty much opposite how Americans handle the issue, Americans assume tax is NOT included in the stated price. Europeans assume VAT *IS* included.) Since no notice was given when LL began paying VAT out of the stated prices, Europeans could legally and responsibly assume that the price stated was VAT inclusive. 4) Without any advance notice, LL changed ~~~their~~~ VAT policy. This was not a government change or a consumer change. This was a LL policy change. Previously the price listed was inclusive of VAT- indicated by NOT stating otherwise and by paying the VAT. Now the price is NOT inclusive of VAT shifting the responsibility of the cost to the consumer. It's a simple switch and has nothing to do with the consumer or the government. Previously, LL covered VAT from thier profits as they were legally obligated to pay VAT. Now they do NOT cover VAT out of thier profits. Even that change isn't what most Europeans are worked up about, however. The dominant issue that most Euros are complaining about is that the price for this months services- were quoted at the time of initial agreement (with the purchase of land etc) without a notice of VAT being excluded (again- this notice is required by law)- but at the time to pay for the service, they are now being charged VAT. The only possible way to make a comparison to a more American way of thinking is if you went to a store that advertised a service for 300$ with a note: TAX INCLUDED! Seeing 300$ as a good price ~and noting that tax is included as advertised~ you choose to sign up for the service. A month of the service goes by and, at the end of the service you are expected to pay for it the ~prior months~ worth of service but, instead of charging you the initially agreed upon 300$, they charge you 300$ +tax. You agreed on a set price with all applicable taxes included. You cannot give them back the service they gave you. They have broken the initial agreement and changed the end price of the item. That's the objection. The payment required was changed without notice or the ability to simply choose not to obtain the service or to return the service. Thank you - that does sum things up very well. Speaking personally, I don't object to paying legal taxes - but like most EU SL-ers, I erroneously believed that VAT was either exempt or included here. My bill day is the 27th of the month. I wasn't billed on 27 September. On 28 September I received an e-mail telling me that VAT was to be added. I was billed on 29 September for the month ending 27 September and VAT was added. I have been billed 17.5% more than I budgeted for this month with no notice at all about it. A month's warning would have been nice! LL cannot know any one individual's financial circumstances - they cannot know whether a particular customer can afford the increase, or would have chosen to buy the service if they had known about the full cost. Giving customers the time to decide what they want to do in the light of this change in fee structure would have been the decent thing to do. (yes, I've signed the e-petition - have to confirm it later) _____________________
Deira
Must create animations for head-desk and palm-face!. |
|
Wulfric Chevalier
Give me a Fish!!!!
Join date: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 947
|
10-01-2007 03:21
Have you ever dealt with HMC&E? They are a peculiar lot. Each inspector has the right to make an individual determination - so the promise made by Inspector A can be blithely overruled by inspector B at any later date. It's entirely possible that LL have had a taste of this, or have been told that they MAY NOT pre-announce the change in billing, or some other baroque and idiotic notion from the charmers at Her Majesty's Customs. Certainly, the HMCE people have been deep inside LL for a while on the subject of money laundering and undeclared income - and they really take no prisoners. or rather, they do: a friend of mine has a lovely RL tale of being banged up for selling LSD, and getting out some fifteen years in advance of his conspirators, because he - get this - delcared his drug-dealing income on his tax returns... Yep, deal with them occassionally at work, certainly often enough to know that they ceased to be HMC&E a couple of years ago and are now part of Her Majesty's Revenue and Customs . I think we are actually agreeing, I think it would have been good if they've given us more notice, but I'm not that bothered by the lack of notice. Partly at least because I paid for an annual membership the day before they started adding VAT. And I certainly think it's quite possible that they were told not to give us any warning. And I completely believe the drug-dealing story, I've recently dealt with someone being prosecuted for selling pirate software, and they've added charges of tax evasion because he didn't declare his illegal earnings. |
|
Imogen Saltair
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 682
|
10-01-2007 03:29
In my signature. I'm about to pull it. I couldn't be more underwhelmed by the number of angry Brits not angry enough to do anything more than complain in the forums. It's easier to sign the downing street petition than it is to create a forum post containing more than a few words. /dropping out of the VAT threads for now. They've just become platforms for people to air their superiority complexes (re. nationalistic agendas, etc.). Walker, i guess you wont see this, since you have pulled out of the VAT threads, but perhaps you are still reading. I am not angry about the VAT.. if we have to pay it, then fine. Its the law in my country. I am happy to obey the laws in my country. I would complain here in the forums (though i haven't much) about something LL does, not long-lived government policy which i grew up accepting. The way your sig was worded implied that your petition was a Complaint about VAT, which is why i didn't visit the link. I dislike the way LL imposed this tax on me, and other EU residents with much more at stake, without warning. Thats what i am mad about. I am not incandescent about it because i have become used to the way LL deal with notification and communication issues here; inconsistently and often unfairly. IT makes me sigh with disappointment, rather than rage with fury. imogen _____________________
|
|
Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
|
10-01-2007 03:30
I have added it to mine, and yes I signed - but with a real name not my avatar name  _____________________
It's only a forum, no one dies.
|
|
Caroline Ra
Carpe Iugulum
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 400
|
10-01-2007 03:31
Ive thought long and hard about the VAT issue. Im going to have to wear the 17.5% increase and while Im not happy about how it was implemented Im happy to pay it. Even though it means that the playing field is not level in SL for those who live in the EU. People who dont live in the EU can have any profit made from not having to pay the 17.5 % tax wiped out by having to pay for healthcare/other social services that people in the EU take forgranted.
_____________________
The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.
|
|
Walker Moore
Fоrum Unregular
Join date: 14 May 2006
Posts: 1,458
|
10-01-2007 03:43
Walker, i guess you wont see this, since you have pulled out of the VAT threads, but perhaps you are still reading. I am not angry about the VAT.. if we have to pay it, then fine. Its the law in my country. I am happy to obey the laws in my country. The way your sig was worded implied that your petition was a Complaint about VAT, which is why i didn't visit the link. Let's face it: It's not going to result in abolition, and it won't be a quick fix for SL residents, but the deadline is timed for when this Directive is up for review in the EU Parliament, and any petition that indicates the strength of feeling against it can only be beneficial. We do have a veto in this area you know. Anyway, good for you Broccoli and Haravikk. I don't want to hound anybody into signing it, but I'm just stunned by the anger against Linden Lab that apparently translates into total antipathy towards the EU. Regardless of notice, backdating, etc., if the EU didn't pass this directive (again: without the UK's support), this situation wouldn't have occurred at all. Anyway, I'm going to Godwin this thread because it's really not good for me.   _____________________
It's only a forum, no one dies.
|
|
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
|
10-01-2007 03:51
Regardless of notice, backdating, etc., if the EU didn't pass this directive (again: without the UK's support), this situation wouldn't have occurred at all. This situation wouldn't have occurred in SL, it would have (and had) occurred elsewhere. This bill is designed to prevent the situation we find ourselves in. As is the norm with bills, they don't think things through properly and then everything gets tied up in red tape. |
|
Imogen Saltair
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 682
|
10-01-2007 03:53
Your country didn't support this directive you know? It is a petition to abolish a particular directive implemented in 2003 which our country never supported. A directive which is affecting us very directly right now. OK fair enough.. signed imogen _____________________
|
|
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
|
10-01-2007 04:12
Can I play "Devil's Advocate", for a sec?
Just looked it up, 1 Euro = $1.42 US (currently) SO- it was actually cheaper BEFORE the VAT being added on for a European resident to run a Sim? Figure you had a nice "free ride" for a while and now the goverment wants it's cut. And yes, it does suck they didnt get a notice before it started. _____________________
really pissy & mean right now and NOT happy with Life.
|
|
Marcel Flatley
Sampireun Design
Join date: 29 Jul 2007
Posts: 2,032
|
10-01-2007 04:16
As someone who reads this forum quite a lot, yet doesn't post much, i am rather surprised about the immature way some individuals communicate towards others. As a good ment advise: think about how you would speak to a person face-to-face before starting personal flames. It's so easy to be rude from behind your keyboard, where in real life you might be much friendlier.
Furthermore: as soon as you start making a fool out of yourself by loosing all forms of civilization in your posting, you might as well not post it, no one will take your arguments serious anyway. Then, my point of view about the recent VAT changes: A little while ago i became premium member: 72 dollar. Then i bought some land, 4608 m2. Tier: 25 dollar. Those were the prices on the website, Where nothing was mentioned about having to add 19% VAT that applies in my country. Yet, if Linden Labs wants to do bussiness in my country, they have to obey our laws. Which means VAT is either included in the price mentioned, or they state that 19% will be added to my bill. No mention VAT = VAT included. Suddenly my tier moves from US$ 25 to US$ 29,75, because apparantly someone at Linden Lab woke up and saw that they were either not paying VAT at all, or they were paying VAT without charging me for it. Which of the two, i dont care about. End of the line is that LL made the mistake, not me. Every company that wants to do business abroad, needs to know the laws in that country. Now, we should have gotten an email saying: We apologize, but we did not include VAT in our prices towards you, where we should have. Starting next month, we will have to include VAT, so your bill will raise with 19%. But no, we get an email saying (quoting): "We have identified that you reside in a European country. Accordingly, your next bill will reflect Value Added Tax (VAT) charged at the rate specified by your country. Please note that VAT applies to all payments to Linden Lab such as land sales, monthly maintenance fees and Premium subscription fees." Which led me to believe (before i went to "My account" page) that only thing changing, was that VAT is now mentioned on the bill. Do you see in the above line, that I have to pay 19% more? Well, My Account page mentions it nevertheless Now, I couldn't care less about the $4,75 I have to pay extra per month. However I do care that I make an deal with a company, that company makes a mistake in their pricing calculations, change our agreement, and doesnt communicate it in a decent way to me. So, dear readers, in this thread: I don't care about the way some EU residents think about the US taxes, I don't care about the way some US citizens think about the EU taxes. The only thing I care about is the way a company who is international enough to take my Dutch money, seems not to be international enough to operate under the laws of the country they do business in. Which is something you can hardly disagree with, i guess. Kind regards, Marcel Flatley |
|
Broccoli Curry
I am my alt's alt's alt.
Join date: 13 Jun 2006
Posts: 1,660
|
10-01-2007 04:23
Can I play "Devil's Advocate", for a sec? Just looked it up, 1 Euro = $1.42 US (currently) SO- it was actually cheaper BEFORE the VAT being added on for a European resident to run a Sim? Figure you had a nice "free ride" for a while and now the goverment wants it's cut. And yes, it does suck they didnt get a notice before it started. Not really right, when you take the cost of living into account (it's much more expensive to live in England than the US, for example) and of course here in England we so far have managed to get away from using that silly € anyway. So not all of Europe uses the same currency. If it was truly "half price" in real terms for me to own a complete sim... then you can bet your bottom [currency of choice] that I would have one. Broccoli _____________________
~ This space has been abandoned as I can no longer afford it.
|
|
Suzy Hazlehurst
Offensive Broad
Join date: 14 Oct 2006
Posts: 323
|
10-01-2007 04:48
If EU rules are to be followed, it is the seller's obligation to mention VAT in the contract. I have a contract with LL authorizing them to withdraw a certain amount of money from my credit card. I have not authorized them to withdraw more than the agreed upon amount of money from my credit card. How they are going to fulfil their VAT obligations is simply not my problem. At least legally it's not supposed to be.
As I said, it's the seller's responsibility to mention VAT. If the seller is negligent and doesn't mention the extra amount of tax to be payed, Vat does still have to be payed. Guess who is supposed to cough up that money? The seller. The customer has no obligation whatsoever to pay VAT. That obligation lies completely with the seller. If the seller is a moron who forgets to charge VAT, he is still obligated to pay it. If the seller, at the time of creating the agreement with his customer, forgets to mention VAT, he can't just start charging it anyway. That is a violation of a legally binding agreement. Therefore, if the seller forgets to mention VAT in the agreement, he is responsible for fulfilling his VAT obligations with his own money. The customer is legally not even a party in the seller's fuck-up. I am self-employed. If I forgot to add VAT to my contracts, I would simply be screwed. Because my clients are not responsible for my VAT obligations. I could try explaining my fuck-up and ask them to please pay VAT, but they are not under any obligation to do so. If they refused, I would simply have to pay up myself. That is the price to pay for incompetence. _____________________
No children, elderly or animals were harmed during the creation of my second life.
|
|
Ciaran Laval
Mostly Harmless
Join date: 11 Mar 2007
Posts: 7,951
|
10-01-2007 04:53
Can I play "Devil's Advocate", for a sec? Just looked it up, 1 Euro = $1.42 US (currently) SO- it was actually cheaper BEFORE the VAT being added on for a European resident to run a Sim? Figure you had a nice "free ride" for a while and now the goverment wants it's cut. And yes, it does suck they didnt get a notice before it started. It's not that straight forward. A pair of Levi's jeans cost me 31 dollars in New York, I'd struggle to get them for 31 quid here in the UK. |
|
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
|
10-01-2007 04:59
If EU rules are to be followed, it is the seller's obligation to mention VAT in the contract. I have a contract with LL authorizing them to withdraw a certain amount of money from my credit card. I have not authorized them to withdraw more than the agreed upon amount of money from my credit card. How they are going to fulfil their VAT obligations is simply not my problem. At least legally it's not supposed to be. As I said, it's the seller's responsibility to mention VAT. If the seller is negligent and doesn't mention the extra amount of tax to be payed, Vat does still have to be payed. Guess who is supposed to cough up that money? The seller. The customer has no obligation whatsoever to pay VAT. That obligation lies completely with the seller. If the seller is a moron who forgets to charge VAT, he is still obligated to pay it. If the seller, at the time of creating the agreement with his customer, forgets to mention VAT, he can't just start charging it anyway. That is a violation of a legally binding agreement. Therefore, if the seller forgets to mention VAT in the agreement, he is responsible for fulfilling his VAT obligations with his own money. The customer is legally not even a party in the seller's fuck-up. I am self-employed. If I forgot to add VAT to my contracts, I would simply be screwed. Because my clients are not responsible for my VAT obligations. I could try explaining my fuck-up and ask them to please pay VAT, but they are not under any obligation to do so. If they refused, I would simply have to pay up myself. That is the price to pay for incompetence. Ineed, and that's the reason the way it has been handled makes it a little more difficult to accept. I can understand LL suddenly realising they've fucked up and need to cover their financial a**es, but residents would have been a little more understanding if LL had instead used a more humble approach in recognition of the situation as it stands: that which you have explained above. |
|
Hiro Queso
503less
Join date: 23 Feb 2005
Posts: 2,753
|
10-01-2007 05:04
Can I play "Devil's Advocate", for a sec? Just looked it up, 1 Euro = $1.42 US (currently) SO- it was actually cheaper BEFORE the VAT being added on for a European resident to run a Sim? Figure you had a nice "free ride" for a while and now the goverment wants it's cut. And yes, it does suck they didnt get a notice before it started. Tod, this is a post I made in another thread yesterday that you may find interesting: "Last time I did a little reading on this (which admittedly was several months ago) the median house price in the UK was twice as much as the median house price in the US, and that's in *real* terms i.e. If the median house price in the states was US$250k (plucked out of thin air), the median house price in the UK would be £250k which is roughly US$500k. And, it is worth pointing out that your median american property is also going to be a lot larger than your median UK property, too. That's just one indicator which gives an idea, though the situation is obviously a lot more complicated than any particular comparison like the one I have made." |
|
Morwen Bunin
Everybody needs a hero!
Join date: 8 Dec 2005
Posts: 1,743
|
10-01-2007 05:07
Woooaaaa..... Just Woooaaa...
It starts by a post that was mostly meant to troll.... and it ends in a bad argument over tax, social, culture, whatever systems... I just make one comment.... I am very sad by the insulting remarks I saw here... made by both sides.... and some by people I thought I liked. Morwen. |
|
Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
|
10-01-2007 05:08
Woooaaaa..... Just Woooaaa... It starts by a post that was mostly meant to troll.... and it ends in a bad argument over tax, social, culture, whatever systems... I just make one comment.... I am very sad by the insulting remarks I saw here... made by both sides.... and some by people I thought I liked. Morwen. Oh Great, now I have to reread the entire thread to see what I said.......... Otherwise, yes this thread really hasn't shown us in a good light.  _____________________
Don't you ever try to look behind my eyes. You don't want to know what they have seen.
http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com |
|
Wulfric Chevalier
Give me a Fish!!!!
Join date: 22 Dec 2006
Posts: 947
|
10-01-2007 05:18
Your country didn't support this directive you know? It is a petition to abolish a particular directive implemented in 2003 which our country never supported. A directive which is affecting us very directly right now. Let's face it: It's not going to result in abolition, and it won't be a quick fix for SL residents, but the deadline is timed for when this Directive is up for review in the EU Parliament, and any petition that indicates the strength of feeling against it can only be beneficial. We do have a veto in this area you know. If we have a veto why didn't we use it? I don't know whether our veto applies to this, but I suspect not, since otherwise we would have been able to stop the Directive being brought in. Whether the UK government supported something or not makes no difference to me, there hasn't been a government in my lifetime that I supported, and I doubt there ever will be. I don't particularly object to this tax in principle, although I do think it silly to impose a sales tax that is collected by companies outside the jurisdiction of the tax authority. It is not LL's UK base that makes it liable for VAT, it is the fact that it is selling information services to EU residents, the only difference the UK base makes is that it is now easily enforceable and possibly has only now come to LL's attention. |
|
Tod69 Talamasca
The Human Tripod ;)
Join date: 20 Sep 2005
Posts: 4,107
|
10-01-2007 06:08
Not really right, when you take the cost of living into account (it's much more expensive to live in England than the US, for example) and of course here in England we so far have managed to get away from using that silly € anyway. So not all of Europe uses the same currency. If it was truly "half price" in real terms for me to own a complete sim... then you can bet your bottom [currency of choice] that I would have one. Broccoli AH! True. I forgot about Cost of Living.  _____________________
really pissy & mean right now and NOT happy with Life.
|