Why are people from the EU complaining about VAT to LL?

At least I can look on the bright side..it happened before I purchased another 16 squares of land and went up a tier as I was thinking of doing...

I think that software sticker prices are a different issue from online internet services. While I take your point, Matthew, I think that WoW is a much closer (admittedly different, but closer) case than what MS charges for its boxed software.

Vista is a extreme example though. Microsoft really are screwing you there, you're paying nearly twice.

You can have her ... she's rarely here in the US anyway ...

Why dont' people get it? If tax has to be applied, it's ok. No problem with that.

But when LL decides without prior notice to charge current billing period with VAT, THAT's ILLEGAL in EU and that's why LL will face concequences from european courts of not treat right it's customers. That's all about it.

We don't say we shouldn't pay tax if EU TAX has to be applied. We complain about LL acting like a scum company who illegaly get the money of their EU customers. When they opened their office in UK , they should have been informed of that effect and they should have been prepared their customers for implementation of VAT. They didn't and that's why they will be held accounted for.

It has nothing to do with anti - americanism and such stupidities. LL act stupidly, they will loose most of their european residents and that's it. They will loose tier from them and they will loose premiums. All these will happen in the max of 1 month from now. If the benefits they get from having an office in the uk is more than loosing all european reidents, they know better the answer.Personally i don't care and I know what i have to do.

The anger though against LL is that without notice they charged.So simple as that.

What are you bloating about? You pay taxes like everyone else does. Ok we get more benefits for our taxes but that's not the issue here. Do you actually know what you are talking about? For me to do business in the USA I even had to get a tax identification number in the US embassy to even be possible to do business in the US. So don't say we are imperialists because it's even worse to work with US companies. It's the only country in the whole world where I need tax identification number for. So don't come tell me that life is much easier in the states! If i do business in the states I first look on every aspect that i need to take care of and then I'll start doing my business.

So, please don't drop the word fool on me if you don't even know what you are talking about.

We DO get it, Brazil - the NOTICE ISSUE is the problem. LL was completely wrong. Kitty nailed it earlier - had LL announced that they would be passing on the VAT when the started to eat the cost in July, that would have been the honorable thing. But as usual, LL took no consideration of how the user base might feel to have their bill ratcheted upwards, as much as 25% more. No one is quarreling over the notice issue, but there sure as hell is a lot being said about American stupidity when it's not warranted.

The rest of the world pays similar rates; a lot more in some cases.

http://www.uscib.org/index.asp?documentID=1676

They just don't have a political organisation like the European Union attempting to justifying its existence by passing needless legislation, despite being very disconnected from the citizens it's supposed to be representing.

Besides, it's hard to consider a sales tax rape without considering other facts, like the minimum wage, average wage, the number of people in employment, house prices, interest rates, inflation, etc., etc., etc.

Oh there's plenty of anti-European bullshit too Cristalle.

I hate the nationalist "we're better than you" attitude, full-stop.

It's unreasonable to argue that a change in SL could or should inspire RL political action. SL users are such a minority of voters in most areas that it's not going to make any difference. And moreover, most people in the EU agree they _aren't_ getting a good deal from their governments, but it doesn't matter. I have lived in the UK all my life, and I've never seen a single electable representative have a policy of reducing or abolishing VAT. Even if I did, as far as I'm aware, VAT is an EU parliament thing, which means that changing it would require a majority vote amongst the representatives of the different _countries_ too.

Remember that the majority of voters in the UK, and throughout Europe, aren't actively aware of VAT because it's invisible. When you buy a CD for 9.99 in the UK, that's the price you pay - the VAT is absorbed into the retailer's profit margin. Again, it's been like that for as long as I've lived.

As I've mentioned, there are numerous ways around it which don't cost Americans anything, which could include taking tier in L$. Another would be giving European users extra land for their money - *not* by charging them less money, or by giving up more of a scarce resource, but by using a similar trick to OpenSpace sims. They'd pay their tier plus the VAT, and would get the same amount of server as a US user would (same number of prims, same number of processor cycles, same share of the server's load, etc), but their servers would have a max coordinate range up to 315 (or something similar) instead of 256 so the land area would be bigger.

The problem is that if there _is_ an exodus of land to private American landlords in order for Europeans to avoid VAT (and this has already started, I've heard from other European friends that their tenants have started telling them they're doing them a disservice just by _being European_, imagine how that feels), then it's just asking for this to be investigated as a tax dodge and this will not end well for Europeans _or_ Americans.

Blah blah blah. Your governments are trying to tax non-EU internet service providers for services they provide outside the EU. To protect EU companies, of course. And now that is coming back to bite your tax-loving asses. Boo hoo for you.

Actually, Blizzard charge EU & UK users 50% more for the retail DVD. It's only the monthly charge that's the same as the US price plus approx. 18% on top.

Okay but I was referring to the recurring charge, which is what we are discussing here with respect to LL/SL, I think.

21% VAT in my case and no it's not a rape. When I get ill all expenses are taken care off. When I get unemployed, i still will receive money, and a lot more of those benefits. I can understand that in a country where it's even legal not to pay your employees even 6% is way too much but in european countries we can afford a 20 + % of VAT.

Is 21% VAT too high to have luxurious life in return?

fully agree. It's a waste of time to start blaming each other for something LL might have done wrong. It's out of topic.

We lapsed onto software pricing (XP and all that)...and Blizzare was mentioned as an example that didn't convert the $ symbol to a £ symbol, leaving the number the same.

Vista was just the first software I thought to check and it supports the $1 = £1 regardless of exchange rate rule of thumb. We do get the same on lots of other software (I just tried Sims 2 - $39.99 in the US, £29.99 in the UK, not quite so bad that is 50% more in the Uk which is still more than the 17.5% VAT - sorry the only recent game I could think of was Halo, but of course that is another MS product), hardware (there was a recent scandal in the national press about the prices being charged in Europe for games consoles compared to elsewhere in the world), and quite often for online subscription services too (iTunes being the classic example at the moment).

It is actually a refreshing change when something like WoW comes along where the UK/EU price is close to US price (+VAT) at the current exchange rate.

Matthew

Why Chris,

By making the metaverse look like a rolling train wreck in progress. Those clever Lindens will make all the competition think twice about competing in this market with them till LL is firmly in control, THEN one night after they have won the great race, they will quietly apply those system patches they have been saving and the grid will run perfectly!
I can dream, can't I?

Walker, I understand that this is on top of other taxes that you already pay. As a sales tax, I think it's outrageous. That it is laid on the merchant to hide it from the customer is insidious, but clearly effective - look at the outcry here. I'm in New York, and our sales tax is probably #3 in the country at 8.25%. That is on the edge, in my opinion, of reasonability. I would hate it if LL had to tack that on to my bill, but I wouldn't be mad at LL about it... only if they bungled the notice, as they did here.

I don't agree with that either, but I also didn't quite read it that way. But the buck stops with your government on the tax issue, and it is not our or LL's responsibility to change that. I'm very sorry.

Hehe okay.

Heck even *I* think I paid too much for Vista!

Regardless of what's been said as reason for an increase in money in this matter is just another excuse to pull more money out of sl residents.

It don't matter the reason given, it's all about taking more money.

Need to clear up some misconceptions here. People seem to talk as though the VAT is "paying for" European "free" health-care systems. Maybe so: the VAT tax level, 17.5% or so, is comparable to the share of medical care in US GDP (about 16%). If so, and you are happy, fine.

But the US system is not as skewed as people seem to think it is. Most of it, for most people, is paid for through medical insurance maintained by people's employers, to which employees contribute amounts that vary from employer to employer. Retired people - 65 and over - are generally covered by Medicare, essentially a government medical insurance plan. There is a related one - Medicaid - for the very poor. Of the people without employer medical coverage, many carry private medical insurance they pay for themselves (like me). Not everyone can afford to, and they are at risk if they become seriously ill. For the uninsured poor, the typical method is to go to a hospital emergency room or a public clinic; by law they may not turn people away but must treat them.

The US medical system is, as far as treatment options are concerned, the best in the world; people in Canada, with their "free" system commonly cross into the US for medical care. What's screwed up is our methods of paying for it, which result in gaps and unequal cost burdens and much of the medical world gaming the system dishonestly. These methods grew up gradually over many years, and the vast rise in the cost of good medical care is turning it into a widely felt problem. The challenge is to reform that part without falling into the trap of socialist solutions, because the price of those is mediocre care or scarce treatment or treatment deferred or denied.

So take your reflexive anti-American rants and stick them where the sun don't shine. If I get sick, I want to be sick here and not there.

But this is about VAT and costs and what all that does to SL, so let's not hijack this thread into a debate about medical systems - that deserves a whole other thread somewhere else. Whether VAT is earmarked for Euro medical care or not has nothing to do with it, and neither do the merits of those systems. I Just want to set the record straight here, since this theme keeps cropping up inappropriately in this thread.

your reading skills arent that good eh? ->

On the other hand, you'll be paying double for healthcare in the US.

Vista or my health... not much of a choice! Also, you can't be a virtual landlord if you die, or are broke due to hospital fees, can you? *grin*

21% VAT and how much in other taxes? How much do you pay in income tax? How much in property taxes? Various other excise taxes?

It is sad to see how far into childhood the European countries have regressed. Are you not adults? Do you really need a daddy to hold your hand and take care of you? How about when you are unemployed, you get another job instead of living off the sweat of someone else's brow?
As for luxury I will put my life up against any thing Europe has to offer any time.

Oh yeah the blahblahidon'tunderstandathingie?! If the service is provided outside of the EU why do I download every month 25 GB SL data over a belgian cable? I import and use my LL product in the EU.