The Garlic Necklace doesn't really work.

1. As I have stated multiple times: The system works in the same manner as many real life calling/mailing lists do.

2. So your objective was to stir the pot and create a meaningless debate? Troll elsewhere please.

3. If the above was not your objective, then I'll tell you to deal with it again - which, unfortunately, complaining about it is NOT 'dealing with it'. "Deal with it" can be more aptly stated as "get on with your life".

4. "Productive" in this manner is NOT subjective: You have stirred a dead pot and sparked a meaningless debate on semantics. This changes nothing and is therefore NOT productive.

Have a nice day Dakota ... I'm frankly sick and tired of dealing with whiners and others who believe the world revolves around them.

Yes, Avon is quite MLM. MLM schemes (not to be confused with "scams", although schemes can be scams) are not illegal as long as they actually offer products of some value. While Bloodlines bears some resemblance to a pyramid scheme in that in order to advance you must recruit new people to buy the HUD, it's not an illegal one because nobody is promised anything tangible for advancing - all the money the new recruits spend goes direct to Bloodlines, rather than "up through the chain". People may charge their underlings for blood or souls, but those are personal transactions.

Of course, like MLM, Bloodlines can be costly for participants. A little math shows that the top two "blood wealth" holders listed on the website have each spent over US$1000 on this game.

And those systems blow, too. But I'm curious now, because I'm getting conflicting signals: either

A) I shouldn't be angry, because SL is not like RL and my avatar's name and other data which would be considered "personal" if my avatar were a real person, is not "personal" because my avatar is not real, and in fact is owned by LL, not me. Or,

B) I shouldn't be angry, because SL is exactly like RL, and since our RL names end up on calling and mailing lists all the time, I should expect my SL account to show up on extraneous lists and databases as well.

These are both good arguments, but their premises are mutually exclusive.

By the way - I should add that "Do Not Call" lists are optional, and not completely necessary, but simply convenient. If you get a call or letter, you can ask those specific companies to remove you from their calling/mailing lists whether you are on the national registry or not, and they HAVE to comply or risk fines and other punitive action. That's, "remove you completely", not "move your name from a call list to a do-not-call list". REMOVE.



No, my intention was not to create a debate at all; it was to express some points of information that displeased me. You created the debate by arguing with my initial statements. This thread COULD have been just a bunch of us grumpy people simply agreeing with each other - in fact, since most of the Bloodlines threads have been exactly that, I had no reason to expect that somebody would come in here and start trying so hard to get me to calm down that THEY'RE ending up stressing over it.



Complaining about this situation is not putting my life on some kind of "hold". Thus far I've been able to eat, drink, sleep, play SL (even work at a venue) and perform all other functions and activities I'd been engaged in before I posted this thread.



Playing SL at the moment is not much more productive. I don't subscribe to this Soviet-tinted notion that every minute of my life not spent "producing" something tangible is wasted time and should be kept to a minimum.



Is this a different kind of "dealing with" than what we were talking about earlier?

I don't understand why you're so defensive or otherwise upset just because I hate Bloodlines. But I don't appreciate being called a troll or self-centered just because you couldn't make me agree with your side of the argument, or whatever it was you were trying to accomplish. I haven't been able to understand your attitude ever since you called me "sue-happy" just for wanting my avatar's name taken out of some database.

The DMA (DIrect Marketing Association) systematically works to block and divert anti-spam legislation (with, so far, substantial success, and with substantial real-world costs from the continuing flood of spam) using that kind of analogy. They (and you) ignore the real-life economics of mailing lists that make it a spurious analogy, and existing legislation to prevent telemarketers from attempting to change the economics of telemarketing to make it more like electronic mail... such as the Telecommunications Privacy Act.

I am not attempting to defend Dakota's expectation of some kind of magical elimination of his identity from the Bloodlines database, however the opt-out nature of the Bloodlines system is equally indefensible.

At first, they came to our welcome areas and sandboxes with HUDs and meters on, asking for 'volunteers' to accept their bite requests. The most gullible fell in. The rest of us would see their invites and tell them to F-off. (=_=)

Then, they came to our welcome areas and sandboxes with HUDs and meters on, simply dolling out bite requests. The most gullible fell in. The rest of us would see the meters and tell them to F-off. (=_=)

Then, they came to our welcome areas and sandboxes with HUDs, but they're hiding their meters. They'd continue dolling out bite requests. The most gullible fell in. The rest of us would see the blue boxes and tell them to F-off. (=_=)

Our sandboxes are now lined with signs clearly stating that we ban on bite request. Preemptively letting them know they should F-off... But they continue showing up, targeting new residents that know nothing about how things work in SL. And, this is a bit of a good thing, targeting our land-officers (Which results in a rather instant ejection and addition to our banlists). (=_=)

Sandbox land officers are discouraged from using the necklace because of the reasons Dookie has spoken about here. It is our position that we are supposed to catch spammers in the act. We can't catch them if we are already participating in the RP because their HUDs are basically used to alert them who they "should avoid". The thing is... The "should avoid" isn't everyone outside the game by default. We didn't opt in. We showed no desire to join the game. But, we're constantly messaged (via bite requests) that we ought to join. A new, upstart resident will NOT know about this necklace by default. A new, upstart resident WILL be targeted for recruiting into a quazi-RP game they more or less are not interested in.

The necklace is participating, not opting out of participation. It is adding, not subtracting. Just because the Bloodlines game can't keep their little RP toys in their own RP sim, doesn't mean that the rest of the grid has to be forced in their game to avoid being spammed by their own players.

When I signed up for SL... I signed up for SL only. Anything else, in my point of view, is and must be an opt-in opportunity for me. If I want to build, I pick my time and place and start mashing prims. If I want to dance, I pick my time and place and club by little butt off. If I want to shop, I pick my time and place and empty my eWallet on things I like. If I want to RP, I pick my time and place and I GO TO THE RP SIM! (=_=)

Really... That's just it. It's YOUR quazi-RP game. Keep it in YOUR sim. Not a bad deal, eh? (=_=)

-sigh- Because you're trying to understand, I'll respond ....

I will admit that more often than not, what I say (and type) does not come across as intended, there really is nothing I can do to fix that I am afraid ...

In any event ....

You are assuming here that I am offering two different arguments: I am not. I have used examples from both to try and get across to you, my own thoughts concerning this whole thread and issue.

Unfortunately, you're a bit off as to the nature of the way many calling and mailing lists work Dakota. The "Do Not Call" registry is simply a step to have the same message sent out to all telemarketers/survey companies. That message being: "Add this number to your exception list and keep it there". See, if your number was not a part of an exclusion list, the database would just pick it up and use it again the next time it checked for all listed/published numbers it can call.

Total removal from a database like that is impossible due to its very nature: Is this ethical or right? No - I never said it was. I did say however that such things are a fact of life these days ... and will one day become something that you can no longer exclude yourself from - it has gone too far by this point to totally reverse or stop without the entire country going bankrupt at the same time.

You are right in your interpretation of those two arguments .... to a point. The key factor you have assumed is that I am telling you that this is one or the other AND that they exclude one another: I am not and they do not.

The Bloodlines system IS set up like many real life systems and you SHOULD expect that many others already have some of your Avatar information. By the same token your Avatar does not truly exist, is not owned by you and is quite frankly rather trivial when compared to all the other information real life sources collect.

Your intention or not, that is exactly what you have done and I am not alone in arguing these points ... others in this same thread have done so and worded things far better than I have.

I apologize for my words to you, however I will state that I reacted as I saw you to be acting Dakota.

Daily activities aside, you are now adding semantics to what I've clarified for you: Complaining is not getting over it, dealing with it or any other thing .... it IS coming back to the same thing and in this manner IS stirring the pot.

On to "Productive" things .... fostering REAL communication, understanding another, sparking a debate that brings about new frames of mind, new ways of approaching a situation, that sort of thing ... THAT is productive.

I will boil my vehement reaction down to this Dakota: I HATE it when someone, anyone so immersed in anything forgets the difference between the real world and the fantasy world. You may not realize it, but reacting the way you have to having your Avatar's name in a database DOES show a bit of a blur in that fine line.

I have NEVER sat back and watched as someone takes those first steps to total dissolution of that line ... nor have I ever allowed someone that shows signs of that sort of blurring to go without a serious verbal slap in the face.

Be glad that Bloodlines and other databases that have collected SL information do not have your real life information ... and move on. Really, what is it hurting? Until this topic was brought up to begin with, only those who knew about the site knew who was in the database ... Don't sweat the small stuff ok?

In a forum with threads like the infamous "Let this one die" thread, is talking about something trivial really such a sin? I could be talking about the weather in my city, or how the lake has started to thaw, or how much time I spend building now compared to the time I used to spend building. People talk about all these things and more. But THIS topic, this one topic, is verboten?



Yes, but this is an internet forum, not a street corner. One can avoid any topic he chooses. I'm not following you around with a sign and a bullhorn, and if something about this topic makes you upset or offended you don't have to participate. Indeed, the time you spend arguing in this thread is at least as unproductive as the time I'm spending here, isn't it?



I appreciate your concern I guess, but it is misplaced. I'm unhappy because of somebody's attitude (to wit: Bloodlines' creators), so I'm going to have an attitude right back, that's really the extent of it. I'm not calling the FBI, I'm not calling the press. I'm not starting a "Ban Bloodlines" in-world group. I'm not threatening to sue Liquid Designs or report them to the BBB. I'm not claiming emotional -distress- of any kind. I'm not sitting here all red and fuming and breaking my keyboard and shouting "DOOOOOOO" like Yosemite Sam because Bloodlines won't remove me from their list. I have a feeling that you think I'm being much more "serious" about this than I actually am. It is true that I feel these people have been dishonest and unethical, and I'm calling them on it. And because of their attitude, I don't have any qualms about expressing my dislike in varied and exciting ways. But I'm not raving and flagwaving, I'm just talking smack about Bloodlines.

I'm no kind of fan of Adam Sandler, but I think my perspective on this thread is best expressed by his character in this scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4v1ICQK7WpY

I am not aware of those databases. Perhaps a little investigation is in order.

I am fully aware that my avatar is not me (you don't know the half of it). That is not the issue. It is the principle of the matter that I am concerned about. Surreptitiously collecting data about someone, whether that someone is real or virtual, without that person's consent is wrong - and creepy. My avatar may not be real. The world within Second Life may not be real. But there are real people behind every avatar, and real people behind these data-collection processes, with very real attitudes about such collections - attitudes that can be easily extended into the real world.There is no way a real-world transaction could add me to any kind of database without at least some of my personal information. You can bet that, before giving anyone ANY information about me during a transaction, I will be asking why the information is needed, and will be reading the fine print on whatever document my information is to be recorded.

Credit bureaus already have my implied consent to have me in their databases. That consent was implicitly given when I signed agreement to the terms of use of a line of credit, whether it be a credit card, a loan, or what have you. The agreement includes a clause regarding reporting to one or more credit reporting bureaus, as required by law.

I hear the Garlic orbiter works pretty good

Ahem .... Bills and such show up on your credit scores as well ... and no consent was implied there: Try again ...

And kindly grow up a bit: Your avatar does not exist and none of your real life personal information is in any SL linked database EXCEPT LL's.

*applauds Imnotgoing * And if you don't think you can keep it to your sims, change the hud to keep it to those who have already agreed to be in your game! Really, it's not hard to code it to scan for say, a victim hud and make a rule that a person must be a victim/blood doll for at least a month before they can be a vampire!

that still would not stop the annoying bloodlines vampires from harassing people to get them to get the hud and be a victim/blood doll.

and there would be no way to "turn off the requests"


I guess I just do not understand what Dakota wanted. Apparently he must have used the necklace to stop the bite requests. Did he think that his name would not be stored somewhere? It has to be, so the system knows who is "unbiteable"

*shrug*

Yes, but they would at least have to role-play well enough to convince people that bloodlines was something to invest time in, instead of just getting them to reflexively click a button. So most of the spampires would find they weren't getting enough blood to live on from spamming, and so being a spampire wouldn't be fun any more.

Heh, I was actually thinking of, "Avon calling!"

Well.... having not read the entire thread, it follows logically that once a vampire bites you, he retains your blood whether or not you're listed in the game. What's he supposed to do, vomit it up?

Despite Dakota's (and other's) best efforts to explain, there seems to be a reluctance or inability from some to understand.
This actually boggles my mind as I doubt he could have put what he and others like him want, more plainly. I think that people are deliberately being obtuse and stupid because they disagree with his stance. Dakota is not asking for people to agree with him, he knows those that will, will and those that don't probably never will.
That part does not matter.
It also does not matter if you think what he wants is unrealistic and will never happen. He and we others get that, we don't care what you think in that case.

What he is after to for his stance to be understood, after all it is not complex to comprehend really.

So here is again, what he and people like him want as tersely as I can do it, if people still don't get it then I am going to have to assume obtuseness, inability to read or real stupidity:

1) Complete removal of all accumulated data concerning the specific av from all databases that Bloodlines maintains.
Yes, we get that this means the av will be treated as new by BL after that and bite requests will start to come again. The goal of this is not to stop the bite request but to stop the accumulation of data and provide a rewind mechanism.
A person should be able to request this at any point and as many times as possible. People who have requested this have been fobbed off quite underhandedly by the Bloodline creator by being directed to the necklace as if this will accomplish what they want. That is where Dakota's OP started from and is very relevant to show that despite the company appearing to want to help, they are in fact do as little as they think they can get away with.

2) A change to the way Bloodlines works so that you have to have actively taken and worn a HUD or other scripted object to say that you want to play Bloodlines. This is called opt-in and is the same way that virtually all combat systems in SL work. The HUD can be free or not, we don't care as long as without one you never get bothered nor anything about you stored in any database.

Now see how that in conjunction with 1) means a being completely left out of the Bloodlines game? Even if you made a mistake as a newbie and clicked "Yes" to the bite me request?

See, it isn't rocket science and the request for changes are not asking for the earth. Fine if you disagree, you will never be swayed, you will also never sway those of us who do think this either. So whats the point of engaging us on those terms?

If you understand, then let it pass as pretty much all angles have been covered already. If you don't understand still after this summary and further explanation then all I can suggest is rereading until you do.

Okay i got that bit, however, I think you have no say on who collect what data on your avatar ... i believe...
Avatar != Your real identity (i know there are laws about data retention for real peoples, but honestly never saw them it in practice, secret services & goverment agencies do not seems to at least.


Well that one even if I can understand why you might want to do this is a bit bold.... I mean if you told me that i should make my game differently (assuming i perfectly and willfully intented it to work the way it does) i would probably shrug it off.

At some point i was thinking about offering some competition to bloodline, it was going to be different, probably better too , but this element was identical: anybody not in the system is fresh blood.

Does not matter, and we don't care, this is what we want and this is what we continue to want. Nothing is going to change that. All this persuasion is pointless.

EDIT: You do realise regardless of whether people think what we want is unreasonable or not, eventually someone is going to make a viewer mod which filters out and auto-declines these Bloodlines-type requests completely. So in the end we will get 2) one way or another.

I am seriously thinking of returning the favor to such creators of this type of system. I would create an object in which your IDs would be placed without your approval, I would then have the object spam you and change its name after each spam so that you cannot mute it. I would call it a game and name it something like "Vengence". I might even have multiple units of this machine all around and pass it to my friends.
I might even publish your av names on a web site with who is currently leading with the most received spams from everyone and have the website explain what is happening in my game of "Vengence".
After all how could you object given your reasoning?

I admit to not having read this thread. I don't care for the Bloodlines game but Gabriele can bite me anytime... She possesses not only a beautiful kind soul but a sweet disposition...

*hugs Lula* aww you are very sweet, thank you VV

Creating a scripted device that specifically target a person or a group of persons is specifically labeled in the TOS as griefing.

I'm not saying that your claim is right or wrong, it has nothing to do about being right or being wrong.


And look i even got data about you!

Along with 3.3 million of other avatars...
http://kdc.ethernia.net/sys/name2key.php

Oh I imagine I could make something that could be just as annoying whilst skirting the TOS - just like these so called games.

EDIT: Bloodlines should be considered the same under those rules also then by that definition.

Name2Key databases have good legitimate uses that make up for the lack of a set of LSL script methods that should be present and work SL wide - nothing more. Yes it is irksome that people need to collect that data for normal everyday script usage but that is just life. I don't know of anyone who is objecting to this use.

It is a far cry from Bloodlines who are probably storing info about every bite request that is sent to a particular av, where they were when it happened, who requested the bite, time and date, etc.
Their av<->key associations are not public either are they?
No, not the same thing at all. So, your point is?

name2key lists used to stir up epic poop storms a lot like this one.
/120/e6/45468/1.html

Yes I know, and I meant in this thread, plus it is not the really the problem being discussed here.