Tier fees increased by tax
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Caroline Ra
Carpe Iugulum
Join date: 20 Dec 2006
Posts: 400
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09-28-2007 13:01
From: Sy Beck There is a new blog post about a restart postponement (obviously more important to LL). Some people are posting to it asking for a blog post on the VAT charges. Some are then having their posts deleted by LL, this really sucks. Yes, well if they posted about the new EU VAT rates on the blog then any new members joining might not be inclined to sign up or buy land. There will also need to be several different rates quoted for fees for each different EU nation instead of the flat rate quoted atm.
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The secret of life is honesty and fair dealing. If you can fake that, you've got it made.
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Ian Banach
Registered User
Join date: 21 Jun 2006
Posts: 1
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09-28-2007 13:08
It is a LL fault dont warn about they wasnt paying taxes, they must assume paying of taxes. Really they have broken its own TOS. In EU, and id like thin in USA too, we name this swindle or fraud.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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09-28-2007 13:10
From: Ciaran Laval It is not LL's only mistake. They are continuing to not advise EU users on their pricing page that pricing does not include VAT. That's a huge mistake to be making and something that should be rectified ASAP unless LL want to get themselves into a shed load more trouble. It's there, just not in an obvious place: From: https://secondlife.com/account/landfees.php Monthly Cost:*
* For Residents of European Union countries, VAT will be assessed in addition to estimated fees. Read more... |
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Oryx Tempel
Registered User
Join date: 8 Nov 2006
Posts: 7,663
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09-28-2007 13:13
From: Brenda Connolly 503 is the New 42. Oh and based on the past 2 days I'm suggesting we change the group name to The ______ Cartel. 503 is the new black. It's so hip, it's scary. Only the cool kids are seeing 503. |
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Sy Beck
Owner of Group ???
Join date: 9 Feb 2007
Posts: 202
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09-28-2007 13:14
From: Caroline Ra Yes, well if they posted about the new EU VAT rates on the blog then any new members joining might not be inclined to sign up or buy land. There will also need to be several different rates quoted for fees for each different EU nation instead of the flat rate quoted atm. As far as I can ascertain, LL only having a European presence in the UK then they only need to levy at the UK VAT rate of 17.5%. But, I've seen, trawled through, been flabbergasted at so many EU tax rules posted that i could well be wrong. I am just pissed that I wasn't warned (bought an island only 5 days ago) and that under normal sales conventions I have agreed to a price which has been arbiterally changed over night. Imagine agreeing to buy a house late one evening at an agreed price and the next morining when you turn up to move in the seller asks you for 17.5% extra money before you move in because they fucked up their tax claim or wanted you in the bag before they sprung their price increase on you. |
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Brenda Connolly
Un United Avatar
Join date: 10 Jan 2007
Posts: 25,000
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09-28-2007 13:15
From: Oryx Tempel 503 is the new black. It's so hip, it's scary. Only the cool kids are seeing 503. Oh Mother.....
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http://brenda-connolly.blogspot.com
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Aleister Montgomery
Minding the gap
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 846
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09-28-2007 13:15
From: Matthew Dowd Agreed - but that directive just means that LL needs to pay VAT on its sales to EU customers. It does not permit LL or any other company to increase the amount a customer has previously agreed to pay without prior notice.
Matthew That's true. Of course they'll get the VAT from the customers, instead of paying it from their own revenue, but they should have notified us aforehand. I can see why they didn't though: A formal notice would mean to admit having commited tax fraud until now. I guess they try to make it look as if LL had always paid the EU VAT, in order to escape fines or back pay.
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Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
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Denise Bonetto
Registered User
Join date: 31 Jan 2007
Posts: 705
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09-28-2007 13:17
From: Kitty Barnett It's there, just not in an obvious place: But it's not on the pricing table where I always check the prices: http://secondlife.com/whatis/landpricing.php |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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VAT inclusive prices
09-28-2007 13:24
Just out of curiosity, I created an Alt a while ago. In the screen where one selects Premium or Basic, there is a note under Premium saying that the prices do not include VAT. I do think that LL may have a EU consumer problem with the old sales prices - which would be assumed to be VAT-inclusive. Drifting from topic ---- I note that one still can't copy/paste the TOS that one agrees to.!!! OMG!! Orientation Island is a mess! There used to be a structure, a set of paths to follow. Now I was dumped in a set of little islands. All around were little notices "Click here to restart station" - and confused avatars. There was a dirty great big sign to get a landmark for Help Island. It seemed that there is intended to be an auto-attached hud to guide noobies around OI but (maybe due to laggy) it was blank for me. I'll try again if I ever feel better. Oh! And to drift in another direction from topic - I made a male alt  |
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Abyssin Otoro
Registered User
Join date: 22 Jun 2006
Posts: 48
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09-28-2007 13:25
From: Raymond Figtree Well if anyone talks to a Linden live or inworld, please report it here. And please urge them to break the silence.
I live in California but it does not matter. I think what has gone on here in the last 36 hours and the way LL has not said a word publicly is a disgrace. Just when I think they can't handle something any more poorly than the last botched issue, they raise the bar. And lower my respect for them and my faith in the company that I pay a lot of money to every month. You want answers, you can't *handle* the answers... (well the quote is close enough, and, well, I will let you read for yourself...  ) I put in a call on the live chat thingy, and even though I was half asleep (early morning *REALLY* early somewhere between 1am and 3am my time, I think, about 20 hours ago after finding out then reading the forums for a few hours...).  These were the answers I got to a variety of questions about VAT (esp. as the charges are all internal to LL), USA sales tax, no blog post, to being suspended because you have accessed SL from another country (YES that *is* in the VAT page  ). I have removed the name of the person, my comments and any other inappropriate lines, but made no changes. From: someone ****: we have been told with this issue you will need to submit ticket
****: and we will be able to look into it
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****: you will need to submit ticket
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****: if you want to get any more info best to watch the blog
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****: are bank is within the eu
****: if you read the link that you put within chat states every thing any other question will need to be in chat
****: will need to be in ticket not chat sorry
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****: you will need to submit ticket
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****: we have been told to tell people to submit ticket
****: or look at blog for more info
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****: will be coming soon
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****: any issue with the website you will need to put in ticket
****: that is all i can do for you
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****: you will need to submit ticket and that may not happen
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****: as i said you will need to submit ticket
****: bye
[Session has been Closed by Operator.]  The two support tickets I put in? As of a moment ago, one has at least been looked at, the other has not. |
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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09-28-2007 13:36
From: Abyssin Otoro I have removed the name of the person, my comments and any other inappropriate lines, but made no changes. I guess English skills are not a requirement to qualify for a job with LL's tech support... |
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Valdesca Winnfield
Capricious Mermaid
Join date: 2 Feb 2006
Posts: 91
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09-28-2007 13:50
SO i pay 25 Dolars then it was LL who have to DEDUC 16% VAT to pay EU taxes. the FACT of send me a mail noticed i am EUROPEAN is not enought to INCREASE me the FEE.
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Mia Lian
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 18
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09-28-2007 13:50
I feel left out, tax me too, pleeease, I need a reason to get out of here, lol. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ Now seriously - when you trade over the Internet, here in the USA, sales taxes ( if applicable) are charged at the POS (Point Of Sale). POS is the main residence of the company and customer pays the tax ONLY if s/he is a resident of the SAME STATE. I do not care where LL conducts their financial operations, they are an US company registered in California and if they ever charge any sales taxes they should be applied to California residents only   . |
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Kira Cuddihy
Registered User
Join date: 29 Nov 2006
Posts: 1,375
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09-28-2007 13:58
I own a retail store and have an online website. There should be no sales tax on items purchased online unless you live in the state that it originates from in the USA. That is unless our tax laws changed yesterday. I would therefore think that Europe shouldn't be paying any tpt tax either unless the laws of their country state specifically they are to pay some type sales tax or maybe import tax when making purchases out of the county. I would be inclined to think though that this would be for a hard product and not a service. The last time I looked SL was a service and not a hard product. Do Europeon countries or other US states pay taxes on service? I have no idea, but don't remember paying any when I was there the last time. The state that my store is in AZ and has no tpt tax on services. I am going to slap rump if they charge me sales tax because I live in Oregon and we don't have any sales tax.. yipee for us.
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Dina Vanalten
Registered User
Join date: 24 Dec 2006
Posts: 268
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09-28-2007 14:00
What do mean Europe??? I got hit and I live in Canada |
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Aleister Montgomery
Minding the gap
Join date: 30 Apr 2006
Posts: 846
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09-28-2007 14:06
From: Dina Vanalten What do mean Europe??? I got hit and I live in Canada That must be an error on LL's side. You should complain about that. https://secure-web8.secondlife.com/corporate/vat.php clearly says: "Currently, only Residents who live in the European Union are charged VAT."
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Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.
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Mia Lian
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 18
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09-28-2007 14:14
Quote: Originally Posted by Aleister Montgomery http://www.out-law.com/page-717Quote: "The European Commission has proposed a new Directive that will force non-EU companies to pay VAT on a range of goods delivered electronically. Under the new rules, any company not registered in the EU but which has annual sales of internet services and paid-for TV in excess of 100,000 Euros (£62,000) to EU customers will have to register in a member state and pay VAT at the prevailing national rate." $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ If this is true it means LL have to choose an Euro country, register there and apply this country VAT rate to all customers that live in a European Union country. But I read they charge different rates and even non-European countries like Canada? They owe us a very detailed explanation and they are late... |
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Mia Lian
Registered User
Join date: 27 Jan 2007
Posts: 18
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09-28-2007 14:19
BTW, it's very difficult to post today - keeping in mind the conspiracy theory, is it possible that the VAT story has something to do with this - they knew a storm is coming...
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Sy Beck
Owner of Group ???
Join date: 9 Feb 2007
Posts: 202
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09-28-2007 14:40
From: Mia Lian BTW, it's very difficult to post today - keeping in mind the conspiracy theory, is it possible that the VAT story has something to do with this - they knew a storm is coming... Makes you wonder, seeing as they have still not posted even a holding response on the blog and are deleting posts about VAT from their latest blog announcement. |
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Cocoanut Koala
Coco's Cottages
Join date: 7 Feb 2005
Posts: 7,903
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09-28-2007 15:24
Here are a few comments about the VAT situation, from an interview with Robin Linden by Prokofy Neva: http://slrecord.typepad.com/the_second_life_record/2007/09/interview-with-.html#moreIt's about halfway down the page, I think. coco |
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Felix Oxide
Registered User
Join date: 6 Oct 2006
Posts: 655
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09-28-2007 15:46
So according to the interview LL has been absorbing the VAT. I would consider that to be a little bonus then. They still could have given a bit of warning though.
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Kitty Barnett
Registered User
Join date: 10 May 2006
Posts: 5,586
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09-28-2007 15:52
From: Cocoanut Koala It's about halfway down the page, I think. Thankies!  From: someone You: You can see now from the huge amount of anger kicked up about VAT that people think a) this was put over on the public with no staging, no warning, no indication, no blog post b) it is something LL is doing to gain advantage itself, and many wonder if they *keep* this VAT amount (which isn't how VAT works) Robin Linden: Are you kidding? Robin Linden: They should complain to their governments. You: Well, European socialism has to be funded from somewhere, I always say. Robin Linden: You: But LL is being blamed for this now -- as you didn't have it before, and sprang it on everybody over night Robin Linden: Like gambling, there are some things you can't warn people about. You can't say, guess what you're supposed to be paying taxes, so plan to start in about two weeks. You: well but that law was known since last July Robin Linden: And we've been absorbing the tax. You: I think people expect some heads up in blog posts before they get a letter. You: well you should say that very clearly, about absorbing the tax! Robin Linden: I realize that, and I try to do it wherever possible. Sometimes it's not possible. Robin's answers don't really make a whole lot of sense to me though. If LL has been absorbing the tax, there was really no need to flip a switch, they could have gone on funding it for a few days more (or however much longer) after an announcement. If they were absorbing the VAT then EU businesses can start asking for invoices from LL to recuperate VAT they paid up until now but that they didn't owe. |
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Raymond Figtree
Gone, avi, gone
Join date: 17 May 2006
Posts: 6,256
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09-28-2007 15:55
The indignation in Robin's answers makes me even more ill than I already was.
Now they are proudly touting Havok4 on the blog, while continuing to ignore they havok they wreaked when they dropped the VAT charges on people.
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Matthew Dowd
Registered User
Join date: 30 Jan 2007
Posts: 1,046
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09-28-2007 16:01
From: Kitty Barnett Thankies! Robin's answers don't really make a whole lot of sense to me though. If LL has been absorbing the tax, there was really no need to flip a switch, they could have gone on funding it for a few days more (or however much longer) after an announcement. If they were absorbing the VAT then EU businesses can start asking for invoices from LL to recuperate VAT they paid up until now but that they didn't owe. Well, that's how VAT works. The provider "absorbs" the tax! It isn't a case that we haven't been paying VAT, it is just that LL has not been making as much profit out of EU customers than US due to LL having to pay VAT. However, since LL has been "absorbing" the tax for months, then they could have told us months ago that they would need to increase the EU tier prices to compensate. Matthew |
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Sling Trebuchet
Deleted User
Join date: 20 Jan 2007
Posts: 4,548
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09-28-2007 16:08
"Robin Linden: Like gambling, there are some things you can't warn people about. You can't say, guess what you're supposed to be paying taxes, so plan to start in about two weeks."
Say what????
But you *can* say, start paying tomorrow????
Dear Lord!! LL !!!
They really don't have a clue do they? - Like not the slightest inkling of a clue.
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